Student Suspended for wearing a dress.

[LarenzoAOG]

This is a school, they don't have to follow the wider rules of society. In the normal world, disrespecting a superior won't see you punished, but in school you can be punished very severely. Similarly, in the regular world, cross dressing is fine, but in school, if its against the rules for a boy to wear a dress then its against the rules. It sounds to me like this kid was a repeat offender and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Its not disgraceful, its not a terrible injustice, its a little unfair, but come on, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. School rules are different to the outside world because its a different environment altogether and needs to be controlled as such, they should be followed unless they're ridiculously unreasonable and this clearly isn't that unreasonable.

Agree with you mostly, in the real world disrespecting your superior will see you punished 99.9% of the time, unless you have the coolest fucking boss ever.

Other than that, yeah I agree, the kid did something, got punished, everyone else needs to get the fuck over it. Maybe a 3 day suspension before the class dance was a bit much, but then again he didn't plan his dress-wearing day very well if he really wanted to go, so boo-fucking-hoo kid, buy a calendar and plan your possible suspension-causing activities to fit your social life.

 

[Dags90]

Maybe if he actually was a transvestite and he actually wanted to be a girl this would be a huge problem, but it seems like he and his mom had a silly bet, so its not like there should be some silly moral crusade, but his mom doesn't agree:

Laws (and rules generally) are supposed to be generally applicable it's just as wrong to say "Only trans people we deem to be genuine can wear dresses" as it is to say "Trans people can't wear dresses".

And the bet was over heels, he wore the dress on his own.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

Maybe if he actually was a transvestite and he actually wanted to be a girl this would be a huge problem, but it seems like he and his mom had a silly bet, so its not like there should be some silly moral crusade, but his mom doesn't agree:

Laws (and rules generally) are supposed to be generally applicable it's just as wrong to say "Only trans people we deem to be genuine can wear dresses" as it is to say "Trans people can't wear dresses".

And the bet was over heels, he wore the dress on his own.

Did you read the end of my post?

I said if the story was longer and had more info we could come to a conclousion, but it isn't. I don't know the kid or go to his school but from what I saw he did it for attention ot for the lulz. I've got no problems with trans or crossdressers, but from what I saw he was niether, so if he did it for the laughs or attention and got in trouble I don't see what all the commotion's about.

 

[Instinct Blues]

I'd like to point out that just because there isn't a rule about doesn't mean there shouldn't be a rule about it. Its like I said before there are unwritten rules that people follow just because they make sense they usually don't have to be spelled out for everyone because they just get it right from the beginning. Also, you can use the Constitution as a shield in situations regarding school because most of you're constitutional rights are left at the door because the school must be allowed to set up rules that will be conducive to a learning environment and lower the amount of distractions kids already have to deal with.

Yes you still have the freedom of expression in school, but does that mean you can walk around making obscene displays or speeches? No it doesn't.

As Chief Justice Warren Burger put it
?The undoubted freedom to advocate unpopular and controversial views in schools and classrooms must be balanced against the society's countervailing interest in teaching students the boundaries of socially appropriate behavior.?

And as most people see it a boy wearing a dress is not socially appropriate behavior and therefore it shouldn't be allowed in a public school. End of story.

Spoiler: We've been over this already.

this rule doesn't make sense though. how would they know the reason he did it? why does it matter if he's homosexual or not? does that make it any less 'disruptive', assuming it's even disruptive at all?

Earlier you said it would be a "completely different situation" if the boy was homosexual, because suspending him for expressing his homosexuality[footnote]It's more an expression of transgenderism than homosexuality, actually. but i know what you mean.[/footnote] would be "grossly offensive". Now you're saying it's not socially appropriate and shouldn't be allowed. Which is it? Wearing a dress is either socially appropriate or it isn't. You can't make up new dress codes that only apply to certain students just because you don't like the reason they're dressing that way.

Its not socially appropriate in this situation because we already know all of the details that came from this story. He did it as a bet with his mom and maybe she was trying to prove a point by literally putting him in a women's shoes. A thing she could have easily done at home where she makes the rules about what people wear and if he walks outside people might stare and call out names, but he can't be arrested or in trouble for what hes doing.

I think he mainly did it though because he was like "Hey guys don't I look silly in high heels and a dress." and the response was "Yeah thats funny you look silly dressed like a girl". Which actually would have the opposite effect if the mom even had a point in making the bet with him. I hope that she did have a point and it was more than I'll make my son look silly and his peers might make fun of him hooray for parenting !And thats really where this story irks me the most its not that fact that this kid wore a dress and high heels to school, that part doesn't bother me, but was does bother me is the horrible parenting by this dolt of a woman. But I don't really care anymore I'm done arguing about this stupid non-news story.

 

[Fbuh]

I hate shit like this. I'm the type who memorizes dress codes by heart, just so that I can exploit the loopholes. I work at Wal Mart, which has a zero tolerance on discrimination policy, so that if I truly wanted, I could come into work wearing a dress and high heels. Granted, I'm 6'3" and broad shouldered, not to mention hairy as hell, so I wouldn't look very good doing it.

 

[pieguy259]

Why ban hats, is my question. Hats prevent skin cancer.

 

[TheLaofKazi]

I don't really think that this is such a big problem, sure if a guy wants to wear a dress whatever, thats fine, but this is school, school's have rules, if you break them you get in trouble, and their isn't a single public school that I know of that doesn't have a "No distracting clothes rule," I'd say a boy in a dress and high heels with blue hair would seem distracting to most 9th graders.

He seems like the guy who'd do something stupid for shits and giggles and it's clear he's gotten in touble for similar things before, it seems he should have quit while he was ahead.

Maybe if he actually was a transvestite and he actually wanted to be a girl this would be a huge problem, but it seems like he and his mom had a silly bet, so its not like there should be some silly moral crusade, but his mom doesn't agree:

"I found that very offensive. They told him he couldn't be him," shut up ***** you made a bet with him, he's not being opressed and forced to be something he's not.

Any way maybe if the story was more that 3 or 4 paragraphs long we could come to a conclusion as to who is in the wrong but it seems this kid knew what he was getting into and he has to pay the consequences, if he really wanted to go the the dance and the trip he should have waited until after they happened to do the stunt.

You know, I can understand where you are coming from. But man, it's attitudes like this that I feel inhibit progress.

Yes, he arguably broke the rules, his actions were distracting from normal, educational activities, and they probably offended a number of people. But what significant, progressive actions haven't? I'm not trying to say this guy is a on some sort of crusade for justice, but he's breaking stupid, pointless cultural norms and having a little bit of fun doing it. It's the rebellious attitudes like his that often stir things up, create change, and go against the norm. Perhaps not in the best, most productive way, but that's why it should be our responsibility to help these kinds of people express their energy in a productive fashion. Many deviant people have a lot of good potential, but don't tap into it because society treats them with disrespect.

Look at Rosa Parks. What she did on that bus broke the rules, was distracting, offended people, and otherwise disrupted the norm. The thing is, sometimes you have to do that to make change.

Laws (and rules generally) are supposed to be generally applicable it's just as wrong to say "Only trans people we deem to be genuine can wear dresses" as it is to say "Trans people can't wear dresses".

And the bet was over heels, he wore the dress on his own.

I can't stand it when people think certain forms of behavior or dress shouldn't be tolerated, unless the person has some sort of 'rational need' for it. The attitude that only gay or trans people should be able to crossdress is treating them like they are people with a recognized medical condition where they need to do that or something.

It's suggesting that male femininity is something unique to gay, trans or non-heterosexual people, and that one needs a 'proper excuse' to express that. Just because a particular type of dress or behavior rubs some people the wrong way, but is otherwise harmless doesn't mean you should need an 'excuse' to act like that.

If anything, the blame should be on the people who don't tolerate that behavior or react maturely to it, not the people doing it. But of course, I guess that's an unreasonable expectation of society, as majority rules. People are stubborn and think they shouldn't have to change because there are more of them and their attitudes are the norm.

 

[cobra_ky]

Its not socially appropriate in this situation because we already know all of the details that came from this story. He did it as a bet with his mom and maybe she was trying to prove a point by literally putting him in a women's shoes. A thing she could have easily done at home where she makes the rules about what people wear and if he walks outside people might stare and call out names, but he can't be arrested or in trouble for what hes doing.

We're not even close to knowing all the details! For one thing we haven't heard anything from the school's point of view. We don't how teachers or the other students reacted. We don't how disruptive he was actually being. All we have to go on is a 243-word report cribbed from a local news channel that briefly quoted a few of the people involved.

I think he mainly did it though because he was like "Hey guys don't I look silly in high heels and a dress." and the response was "Yeah thats funny you look silly dressed like a girl". Which actually would have the opposite effect if the mom even had a point in making the bet with him. I hope that she did have a point and it was more than I'll make my son look silly and his peers might make fun of him hooray for parenting !And thats really where this story irks me the most its not that fact that this kid wore a dress and high heels to school, that part doesn't bother me, but was does bother me is the horrible parenting by this dolt of a woman. But I don't really care anymore I'm done arguing about this stupid non-news story.

We don't why he did it because we aren't psychic. We know his stated reason for doing so, that's about it. But the point i've been trying to hammer home is that his reasons don't matter. there are legal forms of expression, and there are illegal forms of expression. Schools get a little more leeway in what forms of expression they can restrict, but they don't get to say "some boys can wear dresses, but other boys can't." you don't get to make rules only against people you don't like. to do so violates the very spirit of the First Amendment.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with his mother's parenting, and i think it's awfully presumptuous of you to claim that there is.

 

[AlexNora]

having an ugly face inst a choice so its ok?

Yes! What do you not understand? If a person has down-syndrome and has a deformed face - I would never hold them against that since IT ISN'T THEIR FAULT NOR CHOICE.

you dont understand how selfish you sound do you? your saying if someone makes a choice to be visually displeasing to you its wrong. you would essentially assert your standard onto other people simply so you would not be momentary disturbed

No it isn't selfish it's just MY FUCKING OPNINION. My opninion is that guy's shouldn't wear dresses or any girls clothes because they aren't Unisex! (Thanks Lythiaren for the appropriate word) Dresses and things like that WEREN'T MADE FOR GUYS. That's it - final. Never did the creators of the clothes the kid worse think: I think a lot of guys will want to wear these. They didn't because they had girls in mind.

image with me a scenario where the song you hate the most is being played while your riding in your friends car. now imagine your friend really likes this song, so you are in a bit of a predicament. your choice is simple you ask your friend to please change this song stating how you really don't like it, but if he says no do you have any right to to be frustrated with him? would you tell him listing to this song is wrong because it bothers you?

Songs and clothes are two DIFFERENT things, if they play a song I don't like in their car. Well it's their car and plus I wouldn't be disturbed. That was just irrelevant. Plus the current topic is about gender and last time I checked - songs don't have a specific gender.

just think about that. just think about whether it is really ok to call what other people enjoy wrong because it bothers you.

It doesn't matter because the situation you told is IRRELEVANT.

I really don't see how you can not see it. you said you would not be disturbed by the song you hate the most, thats really good! take that same attitude and realize in the same way you have no control of what music plays in someone else's car you have no control over what people wear the world does not belong to you. don't be disturbed by people for liking what they they like.

so what if im the creators of the clothes and i make some dresses for men that look very similar to dresses for women (if not the same) but i only sell them to men. would you still have a problem with that?

just really consider if it truly is wrong.

 

[nothingspringstomind]

Pssh, and? My missus tells me i look good in a dress.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

WHAT?!?!?!? I blame the left?! The left are all about freedom of expression UNLESS it:

A: expresses discontent towards raising taxes on the rich

B: expresses discontent about social programs "rewarding" the poor shit heads that don't do anything for a living

C: has any sort of religious or philosophical meaning outside of "I think, therefore I am."

D: is something about black people.

E: has anything to do with the awesomeness of white people

F: supports guns

G: has anything to do with patriotism towards the United States

Google all of these things. You'll find your evidence for it.

I blame twits who get offended at shit they don't agree with. It occurs on both sides of the political spectrum and pointing fingers just sends the twits on both sides into a tizzy.

Also, where has the left demonstrated an aversion to complex philosophy? Religion I get, but philosophy? I don't see where you're coming from. Also, a few anecdotes isn't really evidence

The awesomeness of white people should be tempered by the cruelty of white people, purposefully spreading smallpox and all that stuff. Though all people are capable of awesomeness and cruelty, of course.

I actually like guns, I just don't think everyone should have them or there should be an unregulated second-hand market.

Patriotism is a modern construct that governments developed to get people to fight their wars. Saying it's your duty to your country. If you want to do that be my guest, but I'll never join any military willfully unless there's a foreign invasion on my country's soil.

You don't think if the religious right got it's way there'd be bullshit laws that prevented people from doing, wearing, or saying things that would, "offend god".

For the most part, the ACLU and courts handle abuses of the 1st amendment. It's precisely why we have courts. Almost all examples of patriotism, gun support, religious expression by students, ect. are overturned in court. The initial abuses are egregious but mostly due to the local beliefs of the majority.

 

[KezzieZ]

I don't even care if it doesn't cover things up. Why should we care? Because naked people are gross? Because there is something inherently immoral about it? People used to think, and still do, think that crossdressing is immoral or sick. But now we're moving out that.

I understand where you are coming from, just letting people go around nude or in very revealing clothing would be a ridiculous step that people wouldn't be able to handle.

Sorry I missed your reply there. The thing is, I agree that nudity and revealing clothing would be a problem in the setting (and contradictory to the dress code), I just don't think someone should be punished for wearing an outfit that (I'm assuming, admittedly) conforms to the standards set by the school just because it's not the type of outfit associated with their gender, you know?

If the skirt part of the dress was too short or something and they pointed that out, that would be a whole different thing but they better punish everyone the same for similar rule violations.

 

[TheLaofKazi]

Sorry I missed your reply there. The thing is, I agree that nudity and revealing clothing would be a problem in the setting (and contradictory to the dress code), I just don't think someone should be punished for wearing an outfit that (I'm assuming, admittedly) conforms to the standards set by the school just because it's not the type of outfit associated with their gender, you know?

If the skirt part of the dress was too short or something and they pointed that out, that would be a whole different thing but they better punish everyone the same for similar rule violations.

The reason it would be a problem is because other people would make it into a problem. I'm not saying we should let everybody walk around nude right now, but what I'm saying is the justification for not letting people walk around nude and not letting people crossdress is exactly the same, it's just one of them is less tolerable to most people (nudity in public).

So I would, ideally, people should be able to look like whatever they want to in public, and if someone had a problem with it, then that's their problem. But that, at the moment, is an unreasonable expectation of society because society is filled with intolerant, boring, stupid people who want their preferences and ignorance forced on other people (I don't like guys wearing girl's clothes, they shouldn't be able to do that, I don't like people walking around nude, they shouldn't be able to do that). Society is dealing with other people, so I'll deal with that. But at least we can make progress to a non-judgmental, free society, one step at a time and get closer to a community where we don't worry about things as pointless as what people look like in public.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Ah, Education, where we're constantly taught to be more tolerant. Except to "THEM" because they're devilspawn.

Perhaps if we spent a little more time on lessons and less on bigotry, we might get a decent education system?

But then you can say the same about the news, television and cinema as well.

 

[LetalisK]

You asked "who are we to stop" the school bullies pushing him down stairs, stealing his lunch money, throwing his homework in the river, beating him to a pulp et cetera.

Well, who we are to stop that is who we are to stop any other behaviour like that.

Actually, no. I didn't say anything about stopping the bullies or not. I said "If he wants to get his ass kicked at school, who are we to stop him?" I don't care if he wants to dress like a girl. I think it should be his choice, but I just hope he realizes he will be fucked with by other people and he can't be protected all the time.

 

[Low Key]

I don't know what retarded school that kid went to, but I went to school in a very conservative city and there was no problem when a known transsexual wore dresses to class. This was like 10 years ago too.

 

[DJ_Bunce]

Long as there wasn't a school uniform of say black trousers, blue shirt etc., let the kid wear a dress. I'm not American so I can't say if they school is likely to have a uniform or not, but that wouldn't fly in England - we have uniforms in about 99% of our public schools.

No uniform? No dress rules outside of violent or hateful prints. Can't have your cake and eat it can you...