Stupid in game morality.

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

Allowing for it's existence in general has the morality system of a game shocked you, offended your own views or otherwise made you go WTF? If so what do you do?
Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

Yeah, I've had my issues with Fallout 3's karma system and the situation you highlighted is an example of one such case.

In another part of the game, if you help the ghouls get into Tenpenny tower peacefully, their leader will STILL go back on his word and kill all the humans. In the face of such a crime, if you decide to bring down the hammer on Roy and his boys after the fact you still get nailed with bad karma!

Ever consider there is no "happy ending to some situations? That no matter what happens you still will have done wrong to one party or another? You know, kinda like real life?

I forgot about that.well morality tends to be in the eye of the beholder (is there anywhere the eye of the beholder doesn't fit?) so I'm gonna go with "more or less

True that. Like in the "you gotta shoot em' in the head" quest in Fallout 3, why does killing the ghoul bigots give you evil karma, when doing so is a good thing for the ghouls? Karma is a state of mind.

Yes but realise that the targets in said quest hadn't done anything wrong(cept maybe Tenpenny) and where only being hunted for their keys right?


EDIT: idk who it was, but they said how There was no non-homicidal solution to Tranquiety Lane...But if you talked to the old lady she told you that there was a terminal in the abandoned house. If you went in there and got it to appear, you could activate the kill switch, allowing you to leave without tomenting anyone.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

The fact that Killing everyone in the tranquilty lane yourself get's you negative Karma,While killing them with Chinese soliders get's you Postive Karma. And with the Soliders you kill them in the actual wastland.

Ya this was a mercy kill, because the professor was tormenting them for entertainment

 

[Wildrow12]

Allowing for it's existence in general has the morality system of a game shocked you, offended your own views or otherwise made you go WTF? If so what do you do?
Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

Yeah, I've had my issues with Fallout 3's karma system and the situation you highlighted is an example of one such case.

In another part of the game, if you help the ghouls get into Tenpenny tower peacefully, their leader will STILL go back on his word and kill all the humans. In the face of such a crime, if you decide to bring down the hammer on Roy and his boys after the fact you still get nailed with bad karma!

Ever consider there is no "happy ending to some situations? That no matter what happens you still will have done wrong to one party or another? You know, kinda like real life?

Yeah, but the second a game allows you to freeze time to snipe a seven foot tall mutant three times in the face with a shotgun in the ruins of post-apocalyptic D.C. while on a mission from a crazed DJ to retrieve a dish from a lunar lander to help him engage in a propaganda war with a crazed computer-turned-president, real-life situations and realism (and the related exemptions get thrown out the window). Besides, why is it bad to piledrive one group of bigots and not the other? I say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

The fact that Killing everyone in the tranquilty lane yourself get's you negative Karma,While killing them with Chinese soliders get's you Postive Karma. And with the Soliders you kill them in the actual wastland.

Ya this was a mercy kill, because the professor was tormenting them for entertainment

Then why don't I get good Karma for killing the beggers,Slaves and half dead waste landers?

 

[Animated Rope]

Most morality systems is bad in the sense that it's hard to actually be neutral. I don't want to hurt people needlessly and that makes the game think I'm a goody two-shoes.

If I had such a morality system to work on, I would only award good points if you went that extra mile for somebody without earning any credits for it. Not for doing stuff almost everyone else would, and not for completing a quest in a less cruel way that still awards the same reward.

 

[Jekken6]

Whether or not killing someone in Fallout 3 is wrong is determined by whether they're "innocents" or not. In other words, if they're not people who will attack you on sight, you will get negative karma. I think that murdering people just because they have racist views deserves negative karma, but that's just my system of morality.

As for Tranquility Lane, that was an odd karma consequence difference, but I think the reason for that is that killing them all by hand also means freaking them all out and personally ruining their otherwise perfect lives in the simulation. What really bothered me was that there was no healthier way of solving the situation, as in not killing anyone.

And EcoEclipse, those were doctors, not scientists. It was a question of a lot of people dying or just you-know-who. That's what the game is all about - either you're selfish and save those you love, or you save as many people as you can even if that means losing people you love. Emotionlessless is basically demanded by the game's moral system.

Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

I don't recall gaining karma for doing that. I thought the result of that sub-quest was no karma consequence, but maybe my memory is incorrect.

Actually, you can do the Tranquility Lane quest without killing anyone.

 

[For Science]

Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

I don't recall gaining karma for doing that. I thought the result of that sub-quest was no karma consequence, but maybe my memory is incorrect.

You have to go to the wedding I think.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

Whether or not killing someone in Fallout 3 is wrong is determined by whether they're "innocents" or not. In other words, if they're not people who will attack you on sight, you will get negative karma. I think that murdering people just because they have racist views deserves negative karma, but that's just my system of morality.

As for Tranquility Lane, that was an odd karma consequence difference, but I think the reason for that is that killing them all by hand also means freaking them all out and personally ruining their otherwise perfect lives in the simulation. What really bothered me was that there was no healthier way of solving the situation, as in not killing anyone.

And EcoEclipse, those were doctors, not scientists. It was a question of a lot of people dying or just you-know-who. That's what the game is all about - either you're selfish and save those you love, or you save as many people as you can even if that means losing people you love. Emotionlessless is basically demanded by the game's moral system.

Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

I don't recall gaining karma for doing that. I thought the result of that sub-quest was no karma consequence, but maybe my memory is incorrect.

Actually, you can do the Tranquility Lane quest without killing anyone.

It's a computer simulation. By killing them by your own hand they will just be remade in the simulation. Therefore you do not kill anyone.

Was that what you were trying to say? Becuase punching the proffesor does not qualify as a proper ending. (Seriously don't do it.)

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Like someone else said, everyone has their own definition of right and wrong. I think giving you moral choices in a game is a brilliant addition if done properly, I love it when its only shades of grey and you have to choose the lesser evil, or do something bad for the greater good. It really makes you stop and think what to do, and immerses you further in a game to make you care more about whats going on.

But I think scoring you on your choices doesn't always work so well because everyone's going to have a different idea of what the right thing to do is (or wrong thing to do if they are trying to be evil).

 

[Amnestic]

Fallout 3 has tons of messed up morality.

You lose morality for turning a raider into a slave. They're going to be doing a lot less damage as slave than running around shooting people yelling "kick ass!", yet I still get negative karma.

slavery is bad no matter who is being enslaved. period. it just one step away from enslaving the blacks again because they're black. its all about escalation.

That makes no sense. If enslaving them is bad then killing them should also be bad. Which is worse? Killing somebody or making them a slave?

they attacked you, its self defence. slavery is bad because it will just lead to the slavery of a race again, killing one person doesn't put an entire race into servitude.

You can't just claim that slavery will inevitably lead to slavery of an entire race. This is called the slippery slope fallacy and it is illogical.

The whole self defense and slavery of slavers is another example of how morality changes for each person.

it sorta does. humans need to feel superior and put others down just for being them. its the instinct of a god complex that every human has. its just an example that its a slippery slope, its all about escalation. in fallout 2, no one does anything about the slavers in the den, and it escalated to the point everyone could be enslaved, anywhere.

Overlooking the (false) idea that every human has a God Complex, the concept that enslaving bad people (raiders) would directly link to enslaving an entire ethnic group (Black people) is so fallacious and utterly ridiculous I have to wonder if you actually have any sort of education in...well, anything; nevermind psychology.

 

[StarStruckStrumpets]

In Batman:Arkham Asylum, Batman does stupid things based on his morality twice in the game.

Spoiler

1.Not knocking Joker off the cage when he had his chance. I'm pretty sure he could've saved him if he aimed correctly.
2.Not turning into a Titan. For one, it would've made the final boss much more interesting. Then, he uses the antidote on himself, instead of the Joker, even though it was revealed that Titan eventually wears off.

That is Batman's thing. He goes out of his way to save the bad guy. It's called justice, not revenge.

OT: inFamous seemed to work well with the Karma meter, because it worked. The karma options weren't ridiculous choices like:

Kill this healthy baby to become master of evil or, commit suicide to resurrect the world.

They were: Get this man to turn the valve and be blind for a while instead of you.

When I got that decision, this automatically, was my response.

"Mu. Ha. Ha." I said as I walked off, free from a tar covered face.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

I shouldn't have to rescue a character I hate. That's the worst. Doesn't matter what game it is. I should always have the option to let them die.

Also, in The Punisher, you're given a score deduction for killing people during interrogations. Never mind that these are drug dealers, death row inmates, stone-cold killers, mafia members and yakuza. And you can kill them all you like any other time.

Not to mention you can't kill innocents at all. Fits the Punisher's character, but... Some of those guys aren't really innocent!

 

[Beartrucci]

This is one of the reasons I can't enjoy InFamous or Fallout 3.
If I play as evil in InFamous, I get cool powers and such but then I wanna be the hero. If I play as the Hero I get all these boring powers then I'm not having fun anymore.
With Fallout 3, if I start a new file and play as good, the game becomes a shitload of not having fun while playing as evil gives me cool stuff but then I feel bad surprise surprise.

 

[Silva]

Actually, you can do the Tranquility Lane quest without killing anyone.

That's odd, I think I used the Vault Wiki to find out if there was a way to do that, and they had nothing. Let me take a look... Nope, you're wrong. You see, killing the people in the simulation kills them in the Fallout 3 "real world":

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Tranquility_Lane

Braun explains it in-game; the people are no longer able to leave the simulation as their minds are reliant upon it to stay alive. So killing them in the simulation is like removing life support.

I don't recall gaining karma for doing that. I thought the result of that sub-quest was no karma consequence, but maybe my memory is incorrect.

You have to go to the wedding I think.

Ah, now that would explain it. The wedding glitched up and didn't finish properly on my version, so I never got the karmaic consequences. Thanks for the tip.

OT: inFamous seemed to work well with the Karma meter, because it worked. The karma options weren't ridiculous choices like:

Kill this healthy baby to become master of evil or, commit suicide to resurrect the world.

They were: Get this man to turn the valve and be blind for a while instead of you.

When I got that decision, this automatically, was my response.

"Mu. Ha. Ha." I said as I walked off, free from a tar covered face.

I think you're overestimating the subtlety of that particular tar-related choice, as said tar was also the reason why people were dying on the street/suffering mind control and joining the Reavers. Letting the other guy's face get splattered meant exposing him to the long-term consequences (which don't effect Cole as much) as well.

 

[ProfessorLayton]

Spoiler

Why is it that killing all the people in Tranquility Lane is bad, when you are freeing them from their sad existences? And how is using a kill switch that kills them all better than just killing them yourself?

Spoiler

Well, it doesn't make sense, but not because you're freeing them because they're not freed. If you broke into the terminal thingy inside the scary old house, there are messages that say even if they die, they come back. He mentioned that people fell down the stairs and impale themselves and get shot and horrible things happening to people, but the people who he mentioned you find back in the town. I remember when I had to make that kid cry, so I beat his dad to death, then left the house that I killed him in, then saw his dad outside. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a glitch, and meant to say that they're stuck there forever and there's nothing you can do to save them. You're not really killing them in the first place, since they come back, so that's why getting negative karma doesn't make any sense. But I guess it's all a sense or morality. You attempted to kill the people is what matters, not if they really die or not... I tell you what Tranquility Lane was probably the best part of any game I have ever played.

This is one of the reasons I can't enjoy InFamous or Fallout 3.
If I play as evil in InFamous, I get cool powers and such but then I wanna be the hero. If I play as the Hero I get all these boring powers then I'm not having fun anymore.
With Fallout 3, if I start a new file and play as good, the game becomes a shitload of not having fun while playing as evil gives me cool stuff but then I feel bad surprise surprise.

Obviously, you weren't playing Fallout 3 right. I'm playing it on the good path and having a lot of fun. I have super high karma because I'm nice to people and if you kill people, you lose quests. Stealing and killing may be fun at first, but you can never really advance. Or maybe I'm just playing the game wrong.

 

[barryween]

Spoiler

Why is it that killing all the people in Tranquility Lane is bad, when you are freeing them from their sad existences? And how is using a kill switch that kills them all better than just killing them yourself?

Spoiler

Well, it doesn't make sense, but not because you're freeing them because they're not freed. If you broke into the terminal thingy inside the scary old house, there are messages that say even if they die, they come back. He mentioned that people fell down the stairs and impale themselves and get shot and horrible things happening to people, but the people who he mentioned you find back in the town. I remember when I had to make that kid cry, so I beat his dad to death, then left the house that I killed him in, then saw his dad outside. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a glitch, and meant to say that they're stuck there forever and there's nothing you can do to save them. You're not really killing them in the first place, since they come back, so that's why getting negative karma doesn't make any sense. But I guess it's all a sense or morality. You attempted to kill the people is what matters, not if they really die or not... I tell you what Tranquility Lane was probably the best part of any game I have ever played.

Spoiler

But I thought if you access the terminal you hit the kill switch and turn off the safety, that way the little girl/creepy guy dies. So all the other people die too.

 

[phoenix352]

I forgot about that.well morality tends to be in the eye of the beholder (is there anywhere the eye of the beholder doesn't fit?) so I'm gonna go with "more or less

True that. Like in the "you gotta shoot em' in the head" quest in Fallout 3, why does killing the ghoul bigots give you evil karma, when doing so is a good thing for the ghouls? Karma is a state of mind.

technically you can lie to crowly and not kill a single person in that quest...lol
if you tell the people what your there to do they work a deal with you so you lie...

 

[Skillswords]

something i need to say, shadow the hedgehog had the best moral choice system because you can change depending on actions and you have a choice to betray and ignore the good v evil thing entirely for your own needs giving middle ground