Supreme Court of Canada rules to let injection clinics stay open

[Caverat]

While I completely agree with full public health coverage of addition recovery programs, this doesn't rehabilitate anyone. It supports their continued habit, even makes it easier and removes some of the disinsentives for using the drugs. Anyone who has broken a serious habit can tell you that one of the first things you generally have to do is get rid of enablers in your life, and now the government and medical system IS your enabler.

The decision is well intentioned, but wrong.

That's the wrong use of the word wrong. That's like saying washing glasses is enabling an alcoholic, so, by the government permitting dishwashers to exist, it is enabling alcoholism. These folk are doing drugs regardless, reducing the spread of potentially fatal infections and instances of overdose helps society, regardless of the continued habits of these individuals.

You are incorrect on these points.

A life sentence is actually for life. Depending on the charge that earned you a life sentence you become eligible for parole in 7-25 years (with 25 years being high treason or 1st degree murder). There is no guarentee of release at that time, you are mearly eligible for parole if you apply and if the parole board grants it, and if a court hasn't designated you as a "dangerous offender".

While for criminal code offences, concurrent sentences are the default, the norm, and in the sentencing guildlines where they exist, judges DO have the power to institute consecutive sentences. You see it most often when someone is returned to jail for a probation violation that is in itself a crime. The extra is tacked on to make a point. The combined penalty can't be "unreasonable" so its not often done and it is believed to be unconstitutional in long sentences like murder. The practice for Provincial offenses differs by provience.

(Since several people in this thread seem to think we don't have them in Canada...check out this Ontario government website http://www.mcscs.jus.gov.on.ca/english/corr_serv/adult_off/sentences/sentences.html)

Thank you, I stand corrected. That link gave a page not available error, google found the info though. I had thought common practice was established format.

 

[Wushu Panda]

Really? I'm "QQ'ing" about people having more fun than me? Do you genuinely believe that? I didn't do anything to help him, it was the middle of town, there were plenty of people around, I'm no paramedic and I had somewhere to be.

I hope he's ok but really, shit happens and I know he'll be ok because I know we have emergency services set up to help people who get hurt doing stupid things. I don't want him left in the street to bleed to death after coming off his board any more than I want someone left unconscious to die after taking his drug of choice. I just don't see the logic in separating the two circumstances. Ones a human being whose made a mistake and got himself injured, the other.... a human being whose made a mistake and got himself injured.


Anyway, worthless is a very strong word, shouting it out at people for no good reason just makes you look immature.

If you're going to simplify things to the point where just because they get hurt we should group them in the same category, then the list grows and YOU look immature. Hell with your "logic" we might as well include ANY sort of athlete simply because they risk hurting themselves.

Skateboarding is a demanding physical activity, risk of getting hurt goes with the territory. I study martial arts and I got hurt all the time; countless bruises, micro fractures (intentional and otherwise), even had my finger almost broken. You heal, learn what you did wrong and don't let it happen again and you grow. Hopefully it taught that kid he needs more practice before trying that stunt again.

Drugs don't teach you anything. You don't learn how you can NOT overdose the second time around, you aren't working towards ANYTHING. Nothing beneficial comes out of overdosing and slowly decaying your body. Doing drugs and practicing extreme sports are NOT the same thing nor should they be clustered together.

And do not criticize my word use, if you yourself cannot even use correct English. Such as the incorrect use of 'whose'. It makes you sound immature.

 

[Shpongled]

Really? I'm "QQ'ing" about people having more fun than me? Do you genuinely believe that? I didn't do anything to help him, it was the middle of town, there were plenty of people around, I'm no paramedic and I had somewhere to be.

I hope he's ok but really, shit happens and I know he'll be ok because I know we have emergency services set up to help people who get hurt doing stupid things. I don't want him left in the street to bleed to death after coming off his board any more than I want someone left unconscious to die after taking his drug of choice. I just don't see the logic in separating the two circumstances. Ones a human being whose made a mistake and got himself injured, the other.... a human being whose made a mistake and got himself injured.


Anyway, worthless is a very strong word, shouting it out at people for no good reason just makes you look immature.

If you're going to simplify things to the point where just because they get hurt we should group them in the same category, then the list grows and YOU look immature. Hell with your "logic" we might as well include ANY sort of athlete simply because they risk hurting themselves.

Skateboarding is a demanding physical activity, risk of getting hurt goes with the territory. I study martial arts and I got hurt all the time; countless bruises, micro fractures (intentional and otherwise), even had my finger almost broken. You heal, learn what you did wrong and don't let it happen again and you grow. Hopefully it taught that kid he needs more practice before trying that stunt again.

Drugs don't teach you anything. You don't learn how you can NOT overdose the second time around, you aren't working towards ANYTHING. Nothing beneficial comes out of overdosing and slowly decaying your body. Doing drugs and practicing extreme sports are NOT the same thing nor should they be clustered together.

And do not criticize my word use, if you yourself cannot even use correct English. Such as the incorrect use of 'whose'. It makes you sound immature.

That's the point, people doing stuff that isn't safe purely for recreation, I'm glad you grasp that. You learning some martial art has no benefit for me, no ones ever won a Nobel peace prize for their parkour skills, nothing beneficial to humanity comes out of some dude performing a super sick curb grind, you extreme sports guys are about as useful to me as that crack addict down the street, but I'm still going to end up paying for the treatment of people who injure themselves doing sports through my taxes, but guess what? I don't mind, because that's what the emergency/health services are there for, helping people out who get themselves into accidents, whether it's through drug use or doing dangerous sports or whatever else people get themselves hurt doing.

Yes ok I made a typo and when I die I'll make my grand apologies to the grammar God's up there, but since my point still came across I don't see the issue. I'm criticizing your word use because jumping to conclusions about people and calling them worthless is immature behaviour, not because you made a typo.

 

[Kargathia]

That's the point, people doing stuff that isn't safe purely for recreation, I'm glad you grasp that. You learning some martial art has no benefit for me, no ones ever won a Nobel peace prize for their parkour skills, nothing beneficial to humanity comes out of some dude performing a super sick curb grind, you extreme sports guys are about as useful to me as that crack addict down the street, but I'm still going to end up paying for the treatment of people who injure themselves doing sports through my taxes, but guess what? I don't mind, because that's what the emergency/health services are there for, helping people out who get themselves into accidents, whether it's through drug use or doing dangerous sports or whatever else people get themselves hurt doing.

Or alternatively one could say that extreme sports are simultaneously a byproduct, outlet, and teaching ground for humanity's innate wish to excel and compete.
If they show people that it's cool to be good at something, then that certainly is worth a bunch of A&E admissions.

On Topic: On first glance it certainly seems like a backwards thing to do. However, in a world filled with bad choices it certainly beats out "let them rot, and let's hope they all die".

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Wow, this forum is very left leaning.

Prepare to be surprised.


OT: Hopefully there will be more clinics like this one opened up in other countries as well.

 

[Kargathia]

OT: Hopefully there will be more clinics like this one opened up in other countries as well.

Canada isn't the first country to do this. Germany, The Netherlands, and (up to a certain degree) England are examples of countries doing this for a while now.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

OT: Hopefully there will be more clinics like this one opened up in other countries as well.

Canada isn't the first country to do this. Germany, The Netherlands, and (up to a certain degree) England are examples of countries doing this for a while now.

That's wonderful then. The faster we stop demonizing drug use and drug users in general the faster we can help those with an actual problem.

 

[Jadak]

If we're so concerned about keeping drug users alive, why not go a step more and sell the drugs at the clinic too? Ensure that the the stuff getting out there is good, as well as putting the local dealers out of business and having the place possibly pay for itself.

And yes, this is sarcasm. I'd rather just let them die off but seriously, if you're going to go and support drug usage and users, you may as well go all the way on it.

 

[Aiedail256]

-snip-

Overpopulation is pretty much the opposite of our problems in Canada.

That reminded me of this at 0:23. Although it's infuriating that they said "square feet" X_X
OT: To combine two things that were already said:
a) they're going to do it anyway, so you might as well make it less dangerous. It also stops the spread of disease
b) addicts are as much victims as they are criminals.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

While I completely agree with full public health coverage of addition recovery programs, this doesn't rehabilitate anyone. It supports their continued habit, even makes it easier and removes some of the disinsentives for using the drugs. Anyone who has broken a serious habit can tell you that one of the first things you generally have to do is get rid of enablers in your life, and now the government and medical system IS your enabler.

The decision is well intentioned, but wrong.

Those really aren't enablers. Knowing dealers is an enabler. Friends and acquaintances that do your drug of choice are enablers. People who give you money when you've spent it all on gear are enablers. Living in a certain area can be an enabler. Purified water however is nice but hardly a necessity, clean needles can be bought from chemists or got from exchanges, you can even wash out your old ones with bleach if need be.
That said, it does provide a place to meet up with others to go and find places to score, as you can do at methadone clinics or other rehab and maintenance programmes, but really that is a pretty minor point as if you are into it then you will have plenty of contacts anyway. The very minor extra convenience of purified water and another source clean syringes is going to make fuck all difference to someone's continued use of heroin and cuts down on the risk of disease and overdose. Maybe it could increase reckless behaviour given that people know there is a nurse on hand to save them if they go over.

If we're so concerned about keeping drug users alive, why not go a step more and sell the drugs at the clinic too? Ensure that the the stuff getting out there is good, as well as putting the local dealers out of business and having the place possibly pay for itself.

And yes, this is sarcasm. I'd rather just let them die off but seriously, if you're going to go and support drug usage and users, you may as well go all the way on it.

Actually, some European countries do this to an extent. The Netherlands, Germany and UK and a couple of others IIRC, perhaps Switzerland and Belgium do this. Politically it is too controversial to roll out large scale so it's kept on the quiet and stupidly the UK only does it on prescription so the government makes it excessively expensive for itself by using high grade sterile dry amps and gets nothing back for it, while the mainland Europeans use cheaper drugs and charge in some cases.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

While I completely agree with full public health coverage of addition recovery programs, this doesn't rehabilitate anyone. It supports their continued habit, even makes it easier and removes some of the disinsentives for using the drugs. Anyone who has broken a serious habit can tell you that one of the first things you generally have to do is get rid of enablers in your life, and now the government and medical system IS your enabler.

The decision is well intentioned, but wrong.

Those really aren't enablers. Knowing dealers is an enabler. Friends and acquaintances that do your drug of choice are enablers. People who give you money when you've spent it all on gear are enablers. Living in a certain area can be an enabler. Purified water however is nice but hardly a necessity, clean needles can be bought from chemists or got from exchanges, you can even wash out your old ones with bleach if need be.
That said, it does provide a place to meet up with others to go and find places to score, as you can do at methadone clinics or other rehab and maintenance programmes, but really that is a pretty minor point as if you are into it then you will have plenty of contacts anyway. The very minor extra convenience of purified water and another source clean syringes is going to make fuck all difference to someone's continued use of heroin and cuts down on the risk of disease and overdose. Maybe it could increase reckless behaviour given that people know there is a nurse on hand to save them if they go over.

If we're so concerned about keeping drug users alive, why not go a step more and sell the drugs at the clinic too? Ensure that the the stuff getting out there is good, as well as putting the local dealers out of business and having the place possibly pay for itself.

And yes, this is sarcasm. I'd rather just let them die off but seriously, if you're going to go and support drug usage and users, you may as well go all the way on it.

Actually, some European countries do this to an extent. The Netherlands, Germany and UK and a couple of others IIRC, perhaps Switzerland and Belgium do this. Politically it is too controversial to roll out large scale so it's kept on the quiet and stupidly the UK only does it on prescription so the government makes it excessively expensive for itself by using high grade sterile dry amps and gets nothing back for it, while the mainland Europeans use cheaper drugs and charge in some cases.

I live in Belgium, IIRC there is an action in the city of Antwerp were junkies can trade in used syringes for new ones, I don't know if they do it anywhere else here though.
The Netherlands do this too, and as possibly everybody knows you can legally buy drugs in 'coffeeshops'.

Wow, this forum is very left leaning.

Not that I think that's a bad thing (I'm pretty much a leftist myself), it's just really obvious on this particular thread. Anyway, I'm all for these clinics, for pretty much the same reasons as the OP and others have stated.

Funny story, even our centre-right Christian Democrats more or less agree with this. Though they are more realistic and smarter than the "HERP DERP dey be stelin' our jobz!" extreme right we have.

I guess it's what you call a leftist, huh

 

[Zykon TheLich]

I live in Belgium, IIRC there is an action in the city of Antwerp were junkies can trade in used syringes for new ones, I don't know if they do it anywhere else here though.
The Netherlands do this too, and as possibly everybody knows you can legally buy drugs in 'coffeeshops'.

Pretty much every country in Europe has needle exchanges, they are all over the place, every chemists shop has one in my town.

I am talking specifically about heroin, that has to be done at special government clinics where it is sold or a chemists on prescription.

 

[WolfThomas]

What a lot of the opponants of injection rooms is that they're not just to protect junkies, they're there to protect me (and I guess by extension everyone else), so the next time I get splashed with junkie blood I hopefully won't get hepatitis C or HIV.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Allowing a crime to go on, aided by the government, is stupid. The SC got this one wrong.

What's next, let pedos have sex with "willing" kids in safe houses with free condoms to minimize the harm?

Something is either illegal, or its legal. If you make it illegal, but the government supports it, that's just stupid.

The emerging philosophy of drug policy in this country is that, by and large, addicts are victims of crime as much as they are criminals themselves.

Barring the possibility of full drug legalization (something which hinges a great deal more on american drug policy than our own, frankly), the policy of prosicuteing the dealer while rehabilitating the addict has substantial benefits, both from a law enforcement and a public health perspective.

This was the right choice by the supreme court, absolutely.

-m

While I completely agree with full public health coverage of addition recovery programs, this doesn't rehabilitate anyone. It supports their continued habit, even makes it easier and removes some of the disinsentives for using the drugs. Anyone who has broken a serious habit can tell you that one of the first things you generally have to do is get rid of enablers in your life, and now the government and medical system IS your enabler.

The decision is well intentioned, but wrong.

Right and wrong is subjective. I for one, think your wrong. I would believe based on the results of the case, that the Supreme Courts of Canada think your wrong.

Everyone deserves a chance. These people are self harmers, victims of a potential multitude of problems. No more different then people who commit suicide for inexplicable reasons.

Do you think that a person who is so far gone into the pits of depression that he can't see any way out other then offing himself, should just be left to off himself, alone and without an effort to extend a helping hand? I certainly hope you don't, or any form of moral argument with you will be a struggle for me as I can't calmly abide such an outlook.

Anyway, to my point... Most drug users I KNOW (heavy ones, that have falling so far I can't help them anymore) ended up that way because of underlying problems, not because they were frivolous and reckless. Whether it's home related, school/socially related, or career related, most people big on drugs got that way before they even realised how much damage was done (some never realise, and are even harder to reach).

I can't help but imagine you, imagine them as some sort of skinhead with a pension for perforating average joes just so they can pay off their dealer, or get another fix... news flash, Most are so wasted away they can't even harm themselves beyond the dependency for their poison of choice. The ones who do end up in violent crime, do so because someone else is essentially holding a really persuasive leash, someone who's getting a lot of money from this poor sobs.

The best solution would be to legalise ALL drugs (in order to take business away from the real crooks)... then enforce schemes to wined these people down from the worst of the afflictions. As soon as drug abuse is seen publicly as a symptom of social ignorance and not the pastimes of scumbags and lowlifes, only then can we move forward from the current trend.

This decision is the RIGHT step AND the most humane one.

 

[Wushu Panda]

That's the point, people doing stuff that isn't safe purely for recreation, I'm glad you grasp that. You learning some martial art has no benefit for me, no ones ever won a Nobel peace prize for their parkour skills, nothing beneficial to humanity comes out of some dude performing a super sick curb grind, you extreme sports guys are about as useful to me as that crack addict down the street, but I'm still going to end up paying for the treatment of people who injure themselves doing sports through my taxes, but guess what? I don't mind, because that's what the emergency/health services are there for, helping people out who get themselves into accidents, whether it's through drug use or doing dangerous sports or whatever else people get themselves hurt doing.

Yes ok I made a typo and when I die I'll make my grand apologies to the grammar God's up there, but since my point still came across I don't see the issue. I'm criticizing your word use because jumping to conclusions about people and calling them worthless is immature behaviour, not because you made a typo.

Jumping to conclusions? You have the opinion that all us "extreme sports guys are as useful to you as drug addicts".

I am greatly concerned about preventing the natural process of a worthless skateboarder dying off from falling off his board and breaking his jaw open. Leave him bleeding in the street i say, it ensures they won't be around any longer and keeps the numbers in check.

I haven't been jumping to conclusions, I've going off the fact that you wanted to let kids who ARE NOT doing drugs die bleeding in the streets every time they injure themselves.

Tell me do you know why they have these special clinics for drug users and NOT skateboarders? Because skateboarders do not tend to fall and kill themselves all the often. DO you know why they have them for drug users? Because people who shoot DO IN FACT tend to kill themselves. Thus why I think you saying that skateboarders should be left to die in the street was a bit much and why I was particularly pissed off at your QQing over a kid hurting himself.

I called you worthless not because I was assuming anything, you outright said you would let a skateboarder die bleeding in the street.

Sure martial artists might have never win a Nobel Prize, but they have inspired people to do something else. Learn a physical activity that teaches them confidence, strength and health. I used to be a hair away from becoming diabetic, Martial Arts helped me become healthy enough I no longer have to worry about the possibility of stabbing myself with a needle to get insulin. Is that not worthwhile? That and other extreme sports have inspired people to do something healthy, Drug Users never contributed in that respect. It is in this manner I think they should just die if all they will do is dose up time after time. You throw people on the bottom shelf simply because they don't personally benefit you.

Lastly, people doing stuff that isn't safe for recreation has been going on for a VERY long time in every part of the world. Remember this little thing called the Colosseum of Rome? People fought to the death; fighting each other even lions and tigers. Sure it's stupid, but people have been doing stupid stuff since always. So what does it matter if a few kids hurt themselves in the pursuit of fun?

 

[Caverat]

But we don't support that person taking the drugs, we lock them up for a psyc eval and keep them locked up in treatment as long as they are an immediate danger to themselves.

We aren't helping people in these injection houses, we are making it easier for them to continue their habit. This "solution" does nothing to resolve the problems that put people in that place. It doesn't get them off drugs, it doesn't help them deal with the problems that put them on drugs.

How does it help them get off drugs by using dirty needles and getting HIV? They die and stop using then? The lack of injection sites helps them even less, the undeniable proof of this is the widespread issues that necessitated the building of clean injection sites in the first place. If a person gets a lifelong illness, do you think they're going to be more likely to give a crap about their health and get clean, or just keep going because they're fucked anyway?

These clean injection sites don't make it easier for them to continue the habit, they had the habit just fine without it, it's only making it easier for them to not get sick and/or die as a result of the habit they already had.

Again, I will make the analogy I made in an earlier post, saying clean injection sites encourage/enable drug use is like saying clean glasses encourage/enable alcoholism.

The injection sites help. Do you think they really don't also offer access to addiction aid programs as well? Actually go to one of these places before deciding they shouldn't be permitted.