Sword Art Online and sexual assault as tension(spoilers for SAO II)

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Okay, I'm pissed now and have stuff to get out so I will be blunt

Furthermore, you keep comparing rape and killing in media as if they're the same when they really aren't. You can justify killing, at least within the context of fiction. Paying death unto death, kill or be killed, fight for a greater cause, etc etc. Beyond that, the reason why we're usually more okay with rampant glorified murder is because it's easy to understand and draw a line on, as most of us would never actually kill anyone in real life. Rape on the other hand requires a victim and is impossible to put a moral spin on

No, the basis of Izanagi's argument was that rape shouldn't be used or be limited in its use as a plot device is because of how terrible it is in real life. Guess what, mass murder and genocides are pretty terrible things in real life too.

Frankly, this goes right back to what I said about most people have no clue what killing and mass violence are actually like. Easy to understand and draw a line on? How can you say that when you don't have the faintest idea of what the real thing is like?

Also, I'd like to see you put a moral spin on killing innocent civilians and children, I believe Assad and ISIS would be interested in your idea.

The reason why people are more conscious of rape in fiction is because it's a device typically used to create cheap drama with no effort involved

I can say the same thing about the 34897573057483th story about having to save the world because of whatever reason. Why doesn't the antagonist ever want to do something other than destroy the world?

Speaking purely in terms of entertainment value, in exploitative violence it can be fun and cathartic at the very least, whereas in cheap exploitative rape its just tiresome and disrespectful in its execution.

For you perhaps, but that's all that is, the opinion of someone who likely lives in a first-world country that is blissfully ignorant of just how bad things are in other parts of the world. Tell me, how ?cathartic? are exploitative violence to war veterans? or perhaps those who's living in the slums of Detroit? or maybe those living the good life right now in Syria/Iraq/Somalia? If I were to think like you, I would be able to count the number of shows where the exploitative violence isn't tiresome and disrespectful with one hand.

Really, the bottom line is, IMO not only are you guys employing a blatant double standard, you're also blowing this way out of proportion.

A: no my point was that you have to be careful. Do it too poorly or too often and you will look like the anime equivalent of I Spit on Your Grave; this is not a good thing to aspire for. Rape can often leave mental scars, consent law is kind of murky with all the "she was asking for it" sentiment, and the victim blaming doesn't help.

Killing can be symbolic or brutal or just plain corny. We have made entire movies and games with wacky violence but it's an air of self awareness that see the whole thing as a farce. Can't spin rape like that.

I already gave an example of a rape scene in anime I find more tasteful so take that what you will.

B: I criticize "destroy the world" narratives all the time

Again; two of the best villains ever in anime and none are take over the world types


C: Writing reflects tone

If you have serious somber writing that reflects on the horrors of war, you get Spec Ops the Line

if you have a game with sodding boner jokes and insane deaths, you have Bulletstorm

Also, I'm pretty sure people have had complaints with anime about exploitative violence in cases like Elfin Lied

HHmm... this doesn't matter because of a lot of reasons. The first is obvious, SAO is a horrible anime in every way. Its the type of crap that passes as good anime because younger anime fans just don't know any better and eat up anything that comes out of japan. Combine that with tumblr culture and you get a group of people who get offended not because they are being pandered to but because their using rape (or anything offensive) to do it. Seriously check out the most "popular" anime now and compare them to their analogs in the 90's and early 2,000's, and you should see a serious quality drop.

Now, I am not opposed to using rape as a narrative device but you better use it well.

Second, it sounds like you are opposed to rape being used as a narrative device. Which is good, its great to have your own opinion but its even better that your opinion means nothing. Because if yours did creative expression would be sterilized. We would never get another Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell and so-on. Rape, Murder, Genocide, is just crap bad guys do, some bad guys are more ambitious (world domination) but it doesn't mean that they can't do it.

Last, you clearly liked it. Not the rape scene of course. Think of it this way, anyone can watch a horrible deed be done and feel nothing. The fact that SAO made you give a crap to the point you created a thread about it means the show is doing its job. Enjoying anything is more than just having fun. A good show allows you to feel a range of emotions including discomfort. Celebrate that a show you love made you feel anything don't crap on it.

A. rose tinted glasses, they had Ikki Tousen, we get Senren Kagura. Stupid still is stupid and once again, sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap

B. This is the part that makes me think are you nuts. I gave an example of a scene that had rape that I was fine with and that worked in the narrative. You are overreaching

C. NO, NO, NO

What, a bad show can give the same range of emotions as well. A snuff film can cause discomfort but I wouldn't call it good. Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen made me smack my head but its not good. Just because it causes emotion doesn't mean it's good, it means it did something. What that thing is determines whether the show is good or not. In SAO's case, it was really stupid

 

[lucky_sharm]

Really? You're literally cutting away everything else in SAO and pretend like there's nothing else to the story other than the relationship or the sexual assault incidents to it. Obviously the 3 incidents of that in what, 18 volumes? is really what the story is all about, and everything else is really just girls jumping all over Kirito right?

I'm pretty sure nobody here is arguing that SAO is some literary masterpiece, but there's an ocean of difference between using cliched tropes and unimaginative use of plot device that is frankly rather minor in the grand scheme of the story, and "omg there's nothing but girls ogling over the dude who keeps saving them from being raped lolololol".

You missed the point entirely, actually. I'm criticizing SAO for containing sexual elements in a story where it doesn't belong at all. It doesn't help that the author himself has no idea how to handle basic relationships between characters, let alone sexual assault.

Since when are every fictional work required to deal with sexual assaults, or for that matter any subject matter, in a meaningful way? and really? Are you suggesting that the only time "sexual" plot devices should be allowed are stories like game of throne?

I'm not sure if I'm wording my post poorly or if you're not interpreting them very well. In any case, this pertains to what I said above. Don't insult the audience by hamfistedly adding in out of place sexual elements and depict it as if you're writing something tense and dramatic.

I got a funny feeling that if Kirito and Shinon's gender were swapped, this wouldn't even be an issue to you.

No need to project on me, honey. They'd both be terribly written characters regardless of gender, Sinon's especially. The fact that female characters are regularly dragged through the mud in favor of being love-struck haremettes and stepping stones for Kirito's greatness is only rubbing salt onto the wounds, honestly.

I can say the same thing about the 34897573057483th story about having to save the world because of whatever reason. Why doesn't the antagonist ever want to do something other than destroy the world?

Because long-lasting and memorable antagonists typically manage to establish their villainous nature beyond doing X diabolical thing to planet Earth, or murdering and raping for fun. I think some creativity in writing villains isn't too much to ask for, and this isn't to say that everyone needs to be Darth Vader or the Joker. Maybe some charisma, some flair, some unique kind of energy, am ideology that could be rational on some level, and actual competence, these are some things that can make a villain fun and at the same time dangerous.

For you perhaps, but that's all that is, the opinion of someone who likely lives in a first-world country that is blissfully ignorant of just how bad things are in other parts of the world. Tell me, how "cathartic" are exploitative violence to war veterans? or perhaps those who's living in the slums of Detroit? or maybe those living the good life right now in Syria/Iraq/Somalia? If I were to think like you, I would be able to count the number of shows where the exploitative violence isn't tiresome and disrespectful with one hand.

Oh, now who's the one blowing things out of proportion? And missing the point, again. I don't understand why you keep bringing up personal experience pertaining to violence when A) it couldn't be further aside what we're talking about which is fiction/entertainment and B) I think (hope) most people don't need to fight or kill people to recognize that real life violence is ugly and full of consequences, and if that weren't the case then we'd have a couple million more murderers resulting from playing violent games and watching violent movies.

 

[VanQ]

From what I can gather from the majority of the people complaining in this thread is that they went into SAO expecting some deep and meaningful piece of art and were disappointed that it was a Shounen full of Shounen tropes. And even moreso it sounds like a whole lot of butthurt that a show they didn't like was popular.

Why complain that a novel/anime written by a teenager that appeals to teenagers? Go read Alicization Arc in SAO or watch Log Horizon. It's a good show with a bit more thought put into it. And Alicization is Kawahara's attempt at growing up SAO a bit.

 

[kyp275]

Okay, I'm pissed now and have stuff to get out so I will be blunt

/shrug, nothing wrong with being blunt, at least for the most part I think we've been cordial in our disagreements.

no my point was that you have to be careful. Do it too poorly or too often and you will look like the anime equivalent of I Spit on Your Grave; this is not a good thing to aspire for. Rape can often leave mental scars, consent law is kind of murky with all the "she was asking for it" sentiment, and the victim blaming doesn't help.

How is that not restriction based on how it is like in real life? Also, I think this is a good example for my point about blowing things out of proportion. A couple of rape threats in a shounen story that everyone and their dog knows wouldn't succeed and suddenly the whole damn thing is equivalent to a violent rape revenge flick? Com'on, that's approaching the PETA ?Pokemon is propaganda for abuse of animal? level there.

Killing can be symbolic or brutal or just plain corny. We have made entire movies and games with wacky violence but it's an air of self awareness that see the whole thing as a farce. Can't spin rape like that.

So how many times have Gundam used the whole colony/whatever drop plot device again? or the legions of cannon fodders whose sole purpose for existence is to show up and die in order to glorify and show how awesome the Gundam pilots are?

This is the part where I implore you do not try to say that stuff like that are ?somber? or ?symbolic?, because it's nothing more than simple gratuitous violence to show how awesome the main characters and their mechs are, so they can sell more toys.

I already gave an example of a rape scene in anime I find more tasteful so take that what you will.

I take that as your personal opinion.

B: I criticize "destroy the world" narratives all the time

And when's the last time you decided to make a thread specifically to bash it?

If you have serious somber writing that reflects on the horrors of war, you get Spec Ops the Line

if you have a game with sodding boner jokes and insane deaths, you have Bulletstorm

And my stance is that both have their place. Bulletstorm should not be required to aspire to be like Spec Ops.

 

[lucky_sharm]

EDIT: Nevermind

And my stance is that both have their place. Bulletstorm should not be required to aspire to be like Spec Ops.

Missing the point. Self-awareness is key. Bulletstorm deserves to exist because it sets out to be silly, goofy, obnoxious, and fun. It's unpretentious and doesn't try to fool the player into thinking its anything else.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Okay, I'm pissed now and have stuff to get out so I will be blunt

/shrug, nothing wrong with being blunt, at least for the most part I think we've been cordial in our disagreements.

no my point was that you have to be careful. Do it too poorly or too often and you will look like the anime equivalent of I Spit on Your Grave; this is not a good thing to aspire for. Rape can often leave mental scars, consent law is kind of murky with all the "she was asking for it" sentiment, and the victim blaming doesn't help.

How is that not restriction based on how it is like in real life? Also, I think this is a good example for my point about blowing things out of proportion. A couple of rape threats in a shounen story that everyone and their dog knows wouldn't succeed and suddenly the whole damn thing is equivalent to a violent rape revenge flick? Com'on, that's approaching the PETA ?Pokemon is propaganda for abuse of animal? level there.

Killing can be symbolic or brutal or just plain corny. We have made entire movies and games with wacky violence but it's an air of self awareness that see the whole thing as a farce. Can't spin rape like that.

So how many times have Gundam used the whole colony/whatever drop plot device again? or the legions of cannon fodders whose sole purpose for existence is to show up and die in order to glorify and show how awesome the Gundam pilots are?

This is the part where I implore you do not try to say that stuff like that are ?somber? or ?symbolic?, because it's nothing more than simple gratuitous violence to show how awesome the main characters and their mechs are, so they can sell more toys.

I already gave an example of a rape scene in anime I find more tasteful so take that what you will.

I take that as your personal opinion.

B: I criticize "destroy the world" narratives all the time

And when's the last time you decided to make a thread specifically to bash it?

If you have serious somber writing that reflects on the horrors of war, you get Spec Ops the Line

if you have a game with sodding boner jokes and insane deaths, you have Bulletstorm

And my stance is that both have their place. Bulletstorm should not be required to aspire to be like Spec Ops.

I've calmed down so now I can talk

the stigma surrounding rape in the real world is why that restriction exists. Media can be a mirror of reality and it's best to be careful of how you present it. Also, yeah it was an exaggeration but I have seen media do that and I'm concerned about our little hobby if it goes too far

In some aspects, it is tiring and I admit they do it too often but when it's done well, Gundam often does have a point to the violence. And if that doesn't convince you, at least there are themes that can require the repeated tropes; not sure if SAO needs the sexual assult trope repeated over and over.

I don't make threads about it because I already state it when I talk about it implicitly when I talk about the two I show. I say that those are how you do villains right and leave it there. Also, most critics tend to talk about the trope already so it feels redundant to repeat the same point

No, you're right, both have a place. SAO, however, does not currently have the writing ability or tone for the trope currently being discussed to be used too often. The fact that there was an uproar when it happened last time already means that it's not a good idea to use it and doing it again just seems odd.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

So how many times have Gundam used the whole colony/whatever drop plot device again? or the legions of cannon fodders whose sole purpose for existence is to show up and die in order to glorify and show how awesome the Gundam pilots are?

This is the part where I implore you do not try to say that stuff like that are ?somber? or ?symbolic?, because it's nothing more than simple gratuitous violence to show how awesome the main characters and their mechs are, so they can sell more toys.

But he never mentioned anything about Gundam or used it as an example for his argument at any point. What even brought that on?

And my stance is that both have their place. Bulletstorm should not be required to aspire to be like Spec Ops.

Missing the point. Self-awareness is key. Bulletstorm deserves to exist because it sets out to be silly, goofy, obnoxious, and fun. It's unpretentious and doesn't try to fool the player into thinking its anything else.

I mentioned gundam earlier in the forum stating that it had both story and action. He thinks difference so he brought it up

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I can say having read 16.5, it was completely stupid and really feels like a horrible attempt at porn

the fact that one of the lines is "two years of semen", I really want to smack the author again and again for how stupid it is and how self-gratifying it is

Because it's literally a doujin. Seriously, there's a reason why it's not present in the actual published work, or are you going to start saying that non-published drafts or discarded/joke materials should also count against the official work? Because I'd totally love to see you trying to bash Star Wars based on the Christmas Special.

Just addressing a point, Doujin does not mean that it's automatically bad. Since the writer of the main SAO novels made it, it seem logical to state that the problems with the writing in SAO and the problems in 16.5 are the same and have the same source; It also seem logical to hold him responsible for the problems of his writing in both cases.

 

[lucky_sharm]

From what I can gather from the majority of the people complaining in this thread is that they went into SAO expecting some deep and meaningful piece of art and were disappointed that it was a Shounen full of Shounen tropes. And even moreso it sounds like a whole lot of butthurt that a show they didn't like was popular.

Oh gawds, don't bring shonen into this, not when there are shonen that are world's apart in terms of characters, world building, plotting, and action. I'd hate for the likes of YuYu Hakusho, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, and Attack on Titan to be lumped up in the category as SAO.

 

[VanQ]

From what I can gather from the majority of the people complaining in this thread is that they went into SAO expecting some deep and meaningful piece of art and were disappointed that it was a Shounen full of Shounen tropes. And even moreso it sounds like a whole lot of butthurt that a show they didn't like was popular.

Oh gawds, don't bring shonen into this, not when there are shonen that are world's apart in terms of characters, world building, plotting, and action. I'd hate for the likes of YuYu Hakusho, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, and Attack on Titan to be lumped up in the category as SAO.

Whether you like it or not, they get lumped in together because they are shounen. And Attack on Titan is absolutely no better than SAO. Hell, the author even laughed at his own fans for asking about how he writes his story. He said "I make this shit up as I go."

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Yes, it's one of these threads again. No, I get no enjoyment from these threads because I ultimately want to smack my head on a desk or I feel like I need a whole lot of pills and alcohol to wash the pain away.

Anyway, I was prompted to write this thread after reading a post here [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2881191&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=91] on the anime news network about SAO II episode 13.

Oh joy, that one "reviewer" who figuratively raped Akame Ga Kill by going full "SJW on Hallucinogens" at it. Really, stop reading what she writes.

Also this made me laugh: "Because her "purity" is more important to a male viewership than her life is. Because she's a woman. If she were a man, she'd just be threatened with death," ... yes that's why females tend to get raped more often for the sake of dramatization. It sure isn't because when you go read the comment section of articles about men being raped by women you can read gems like: "I wish I was raped by her" or "Why does that never happen to me?". (or in other words; men being raped doesn't provide drama because few take it seriously)

Okay three points
A. Having watched three episodes of Akame ga Kill, I can say that while over exaggerating, it still has some really stupid tropes. Mine and Akame change personality way too quickly, there is no tension with Tasumi's fights, the villains are overly cartoonish, the whole thing feels shallow and a tad self-insert. Could Chapman have been overboard, yes, is she completely wrong, I don't think so.

B. We still have some issues with evaluating women by "purity" as seen with the use of "whore" in certain parts of the internet. Some people do use sex for means other than pleasure but to say that a woman is no longer desirable just because she had sex before is a bit off. Note this is extreme portions of the internet so it may not apply broadly.

C. I think there are ways to write a scene where we take a man being raped seriously. It all depends on writing ability and at this point, female rape can seem very, very cheap and only meant for shallow provocation.

 

[kyp275]

You missed the point entirely, actually. I'm criticizing SAO for containing sexual elements in a story where it doesn't belong at all. It doesn't help that the author himself has no idea how to handle basic relationships between characters, let alone sexual assault.

That's certainly your prerogative, but for me I didn't feel it was particularly good or bad, but rather par the course for that market.

I'm not sure if I'm wording my post poorly or if you're not interpreting them very well. In any case, this pertains to what I said above. Don't insult the audience by hamfistedly adding in out of place sexual elements and depict it as if you're writing something tense and dramatic.

I think what VanQ said in his post hits it on the nail. You're expecting a level of sophistication from a story for a mature audience when it is decidedly not the case. It's like expecting to see a mature romance story when you're watching Twilight.

Because long-lasting and memorable antagonists typically manage to establish their villainous nature beyond doing X diabolical thing to planet Earth, or murdering and raping for fun. I think some creativity in writing villains isn't too much to ask for, and this isn't to say that everyone needs to be Darth Vader or the Joker. Maybe some charisma, some flair, some unique kind of energy, am ideology that could be rational on some level, and actual competence, these are some things that can make a villain fun and at the same time dangerous.

And you've just basically disqualified the majority of antagonists, which was exactly my point.

Oh, now who's the one blowing things out of proportion?

Yup, to show it'd be if we applied your logic to violence instead.

And missing the point, again. I don't understand why you keep bringing up personal experience pertaining to violence when A) it couldn't be further aside what we're talking about which is fiction/entertainment

I'm fairly certain your whole argument against the depiction/use of sexual assault in SAO is based on how serious a subject it is in real life, but when it comes to violence it's suddenly ?we're just talking about fiction/entertainment?? Did I miss the memo where it was declared that sexual assault is the only subject that should receive special consideration in fictional works?

Well then, why don't we try this? ?I don't understand why you keep bringing up how serious sexual assault is in real life, it couldn't be further aside to what we're talking about, which is fiction/entertainment?.

and B) I think (hope) most people don't need to fight or kill people to recognize that real life violence is ugly and full of consequences, and if that weren't the case then we'd have a couple million more murderers resulting from playing violent games and watching violent movies.

and most people don't need to be raped or be a rapist to recognize how terrible rape is, nor will a legion of rapists be born from watching SAO, so what's your point again?

Missing the point. Self-awareness is key. Bulletstorm deserves to exist because it sets out to be silly, goofy, obnoxious, and fun. It's unpretentious and doesn't try to fool the player into thinking its anything else.

Nope, I would think exactly the same thing even if Bulletstorm was pretentous.

 

[Elfgore]

I see the internet had gone about a week before someone complained about SAO. Gotta fit the quota of dissing this anime whenever possible. I'm also baffled you continue to watch something you don't care for. That just doesn't make sense to me. The entire point of this thread seems to be "This show is shit and everyone who likes it has shit taste and they have to know that!"

First off, Shinon has no combat experience in real life. Chances are the man was not only stronger, she was also drugged. What could she do, will him off her. Kirito on the other hand is trained in kendo and was not drugged. What else was suppose to happen? An actual rape?(by that I mean having the full rape play out) I'd much rather have Kirito be the hero again, than have a girl be traumatized a second time in her life.

 

[lucky_sharm]

From what I can gather from the majority of the people complaining in this thread is that they went into SAO expecting some deep and meaningful piece of art and were disappointed that it was a Shounen full of Shounen tropes. And even moreso it sounds like a whole lot of butthurt that a show they didn't like was popular.

Oh gawds, don't bring shonen into this, not when there are shonen that are world's apart in terms of characters, world building, plotting, and action. I'd hate for the likes of YuYu Hakusho, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter X Hunter, One Piece, and Attack on Titan to be lumped up in the category as SAO.

Whether you like it or not, they get lumped in together because they are shounen. And Attack on Titan is absolutely no better than SAO. Hell, the author even laughed at his own fans for asking about how he writes his story. He said "I make this shit up as I go."

I'd like a source on that.

There are many flaws in Attack on Titan but there are many respectable qualities that it has if nothing else. There's a consistent tone throughout and no cringeworthy attempts at comedy, there's a considerable balance of power among the cast and nearly everyone gets the spotlight, there isn't any obnoxious fanservice, and the girls are hugely tied to the central plot that doesn't involve being a part of harem or eyecandy.

 

[VanQ]

I see the internet had gone about a week before someone complained about SAO. Gotta fit the quota of dissing this anime whenever possible. I'm also baffled you continue to watch something you don't care for. That just doesn't make sense to me. The entire point of this thread seems to be "This show is shit and everyone who likes it has shit taste and they have to know that!"

First off, Shinon has no combat experience in real life. Chances are the man was not only stronger, she was also drugged. What could she do, will him off her. Kirito on the other hand is trained in kendo and was not drugged. What else was suppose to happen? An actual rape?(by that I mean having the full rape play out) I'd much rather have Kirito be the hero again, than have a girl be traumatized a second time in her life.

Nah, she wasn't drugged. He threatened her with the drug because it would have shut down her muscles and heart and caused her death.

I'd like a source on that.

There are many flaws in Attack on Titan but there are many respectable qualities that it has if nothing else. There's a consistent tone throughout and no cringeworthy attempts at comedy, there's a considerable balance of power among the cast and nearly everyone gets the spotlight, there isn't any obnoxious fanservice, and the girls are hugely tied to the central plot that doesn't involve being a part of harem or eyecandy.

The source is the author's twitter. It was from around the time the anime was airing. Feel free to search for it, I can't be bothered to and I can actually read Japanese. For feel free to disregard that comment all you like. And to be fair, for all of SAO's flaws it certainly has its redeeming qualities. The author is a fantastic world builder and the games are interesting which is more than can be said for most actual games these days. Mother's Rosario made me cry ***** tears and Alicization has one of the most interesting premises I've ever read. If you haven't watched/read Accel World, do so. It's a genuinely fantastic premise and a very original take on the anime about games thing.

But no, let's pass judgement on the entire series from the first 4 novels that have been adapted out of the 14 novels that exist. That's totally cool.

 

[kyp275]

the stigma surrounding rape in the real world is why that restriction exists. Media can be a mirror of reality and it's best to be careful of how you present it.

This is where I disagree. Not because I don't think sexual assaults are serious issues, but if media portrayal is your concern, then it should something that's portrayed properly in other works that's designed for it, and not by condemning works that does not fit in with your ideals. Nor do I think sexual assault should be accorded some form of special status. Violence and racism are also serious problems, and if you go around applying those restrictions around, pretty soon you're going to be left with nothing to write about other than Hello Kitty.

Or not, I've heard that's also sexist.

In some aspects, it is tiring and I admit they do it too often but when it's done well, Gundam often does have a point to the violence. And if that doesn't convince you, at least there are themes that can require the repeated tropes; not sure if SAO needs the sexual assult trope repeated over and over.

I would argue that they both have their points to make, but does it in a ham-fisted and heavy-handed way that's more or less expected for entertainment aimed at young teens.

No, you're right, both have a place. SAO, however, does not currently have the writing ability or tone for the trope currently being discussed to be used too often. The fact that there was an uproar when it happened last time already means that it's not a good idea to use it and doing it again just seems odd.

I'm not going to say SAO is well written at this point, but as I said earlier, I also don't see the need to hold it to some higher standard. TBH, the uproar is really only among some western fanbase, because frankly this is not exactly something that would be considered a big deal over there.

Also, I think what VanQ said earlier bears repeating. I think it's fair to assume that for you and lucky charm, you guys are forming your opinion on SAO primarily on the earlier portions of the story, where me and VanQ have seen the story in its entirety.

This probably contributes to the gaps between our perceptions. When you think of SAO, you think of the almost 3 arcs filled with little other than Kirito pwnage and where the rape thing was brought out twice.

When I think of SAO, I think of Mother's Rosario, where Asuna and Yuuki is the lead, and Kirito only makes a few token appearances; and Alicization, where Asuna is the protagonist for pretty much the entire real world half of the story, and where Kirito's OP-ness have been decidedly toned down.

 

[generals3]

Okay three points
A. Having watched three episodes of Akame ga Kill, I can say that while over exaggerating, it still has some really stupid tropes. Mine and Akame change personality way too quickly, there is no tension with Tasumi's fights, the villains are overly cartoonish, the whole thing feels shallow and a tad self-insert. Could Chapman have been overboard, yes, is she completely wrong, I don't think so.

She was almost completely wrong actually. And nothing you stated right now suggests she wasn't since it doesn't address the crazy points she was making. Really, you shouldn't make excuses for someone who's on hallucinogens. Just realize it and realize their reality =/= reality.

B. We still have some issues with evaluating women by "purity" as seen with the use of "whore" in certain parts of the internet. Some people do use sex for means other than pleasure but to say that a woman is no longer desirable just because she had sex before is a bit off. Note this is extreme portions of the internet so it may not apply broadly.

Yes there is an issue with people and how they view sexuality (women can't have too much, men can't have too little). But this is irrelevant to the dramatization of rape. Rape is considered great for dramatization because we're continuously being told just how horrible it is for women.

C. I think there are ways to write a scene where we take a man being raped seriously. It all depends on writing ability and at this point, female rape can seem very, very cheap and only meant for shallow provocation.

You may think that and I also do. But unfortunately society at large still has issues with grasping the seriousness of male rape and consequently such themes won't be taken as seriously as female media in the media either.

And every theme can appear as cheap shallow provocation. Whether it be murder, rape, death in general, separations, etc. Personally what baffles me is that i'm getting the impression is cheap provocation is just worthy of making topics when it's about rape. Because if we had to make topics for every movie/series/anime which cheaply uses death, murder or separations this forum would explode.

 

[lucky_sharm]

I think what VanQ said in his post hits it on the nail. You're expecting a level of sophistication from a story for a mature audience when it is decidedly not the case. It's like expecting to see a mature romance story when you're watching Twilight.

If we really are going down the route of "it's for younger audiences therefore no effort needs to be made", isn't it more important for the development of younger people to handle and discuss heavy subjects with sophistication as opposed to defaulting to popcorn power fantasy?

And you've just basically disqualified the majority of antagonists, which was exactly my point.

If you truly believe that then you've seen far, far too little media. Here's a pretty easy one: Dragon Ball Z. The villains are scummy as hell but each bring in a different kind of energy and dynamic with their presence. They're engaging and entertaining because of that. Raditz introduces a new aspect of Goku's past and forces Piccolo and Goku to work together, Nappa gleefully murders nearly the entire cast despite how long they prepared to for the battle, Vegeta is ruthless, cruel, and genocidal but indirectly serves the interests of the protagonists through his actions, Zarbon's charm is juxtaposed by his true hideous form, the Ginyu Force are basically flamboyant space jocks but nonetheless have menace by defeating Vegeta, Krillin, and breaking Gohan's neck, Frieza is a genocidal despot that cloaks his barbaric nature with an air of royalty, and Androids 17 and 18 are playfully juvenile and sadistic killing machines.

I'm fairly certain your whole argument against the depiction/use of sexual assault in SAO is based on how serious a subject it is in real life, but when it comes to violence it's suddenly "we're just talking about fiction/entertainment"? Did I miss the memo where it was declared that sexual assault is the only subject that should receive special consideration in fictional works?

Well then, why don't we try this? "I don't understand why you keep bringing up how serious sexual assault is in real life, it couldn't be further aside to what we're talking about, which is fiction/entertainment".

I already talked into killing and how it's a gray area that can be interpreted and depicted in many ways. Most importantly, in fiction it doesn't discriminate on who's capable of murder, so no matter how flimsy the justification for killing becomes, its a power fantasy that most people can engage in. That isn't the case with rape, which basically requires one party to lose all power and agency. To make a rape "fun" (my god) you'd have to somehow craft a scenario where you lose all sense of empathy for the victim so he/she somehow deserves it. I know you're going to say "thats the same when bad guys die" except the bad guys are always gunning for the protagonists so they can be reasonably rooted against.

It really comes down to the tone of the writing. I think SAO would have hugely benefited from not playing everything so completely straight and void of any wit or irony. Maybe create a world that actually moves on its own without Kirito having to show up and a cast that actually has some semblance of contrast and chemistry beyond hair color and style. It's the problem with most Light Novels where the authors glean all of their literary knowledge from anime and basically write their stories as a sort of screenplay for a hypothetical anime.

 

[Superlative]

I'm going to put out a theory here: Its too early to discuss this yet.

We have no clue how the show is going to deal with the aftermath of this, we have no clue what tone is going to be taken, and we have no clue if they are going to even stick with however things went in the books (didn't read myself, trying to avoid spoilers for this season). This could be a way to show Sinnon's inner strength in a similar way they showed Asuna's.

Asuna endured the super PTSD inducing experience of SAO only to turn around and endure captivity with repeated sexual assaults. She resisted the douchebag holding her and was instrumental in her own escape. She even managed to come though the whole situation and not be reduced to a pile of neurosies and nightmares.

Sinnon started off as a pile of neurosies but started to slowly pull herself back together. Her healing process was clearly underway until the assault. At this point she could go either way.

 

[Vibhor]

You're really not helping eliminate the "gamers are sexist" stereotype. Seriously don't talk about this kind of thing unless you're 100% sure you know what you're talking about. Placing rape in quotation marks and saying that it's not a problem is a really fucked up thing to say.

That is a huge logical leap you made there.
The whole gamers being sexist seems more like wishful thinking on your part so that you can push your shit around.