Teaching kids about homosexuality

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The Hairminator

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bobknowsall said:
The Hairminator said:
bobknowsall said:
Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.
We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.
And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure.

My problem is with the views you're expressing. I'm still waiting for you to support those assertions you made about gender and sexuality.
You're getting me very wrong here. I do not mind homosexual people AT ALL. In fact, the sexuality of someone (unless I intend to romance the person in question) is completely irrelevant to me.

And the index refers to the gap between the genders- not equal treatment of homosexuals, although I believe we are far ahead of most countries on that front as well.

EDIT: What country, by the way? I think Iceland beat you to it.
 

bobknowsall

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The Hairminator said:
bobknowsall said:
The Hairminator said:
bobknowsall said:
Psst... The Swedish point of view isn't all that different...

They've got homophobes and racists over there too. Linguistic quirks don't make a country more accepting.
We ARE rather liberal about most things, though. For example, two of our ministers are openly homosexual. We're close to the top on both Social and Gender equality indexes as well.
And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure.

My problem is with the views you're expressing. I'm still waiting for you to support those assertions you made about gender and sexuality.
You're getting me very wrong here. I do not mind homosexual people AT ALL. In fact, the sexuality of someone (unless I intend to romance the person in question) is completely irrelevant to me.

And the index refers to the gap between the genders- not equal treatment of homosexuals, although I believe we are far ahead of most countries on that front as well.

EDIT: What country, by the way? I think Iceland beat you to it.
No, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Go back through the last few pages, you'll see I called you out over assertions about "insecurity". That's what I'm referring to.

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.
 

Thespian

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bobknowsall said:
It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.
Whoa, whoa, we're going to have a gay president? :O

God, I am so out of touch with politics >_<
 

The Hairminator

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bobknowsall said:
No, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Go back through the last few pages, you'll see I called you out over assertions about "insecurity". That's what I'm referring to.

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.
Take a joke, man! Though the line "And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure." kind of made me wonder if that wasn't how you saw it.

Also, to that I'm just gonna reply that you can go read what I wrote in reply to some of the others in the herd of the people who disagreed with me. It's a few pages back.
 

bobknowsall

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Thespian said:
bobknowsall said:
It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.
Whoa, whoa, we're going to have a gay president? :O

God, I am so out of touch with politics >_<
Yep, David Norris. He's a Joycean scholar, too. Firm favourite for every party bar Fianna Fail.
 

101flyboy

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Iron Mal said:
Housebroken Lunatic said:
Then again how would you know what the child might encounter? For instance, what happens if one of the classmates gets exposed as being gay without anyone seeing it coming? How do kids usually react to that when they have only been forcefed with the heterosexual norms and values all their life? With acceptance and tolerance? (I doubt it)
Like I said, they would bring it up on their own eventually, if they heard a kid being accused of being gay (and this was their first experience of homosexuality) then I doubt they would join in the laughing and finger pointing, they would just ask the valid question of 'what's a gay?' (this would be like me calling you a xtopalotakettle and having everyone start laughing at you without really knowing what the hell that is).

'What if one of the classmates is exposed as being gay?', in other words, what if a rumour gets spread and someone gets picked on for it. Excuse me for shooting your point down like a balloon here but that could be applied to anything, not just sexuality (in fact, targeting one's sexuality is an easy way to trigger our insecurities but more on this later), what you are asking to prevent our kids from doing is actually called bullying, this can be aimed at anyone for any reason (even gay kids, if there is such a thing as a gay child, can be bullies).

I got bullied a lot because I was nerdy, a loner, somewhat overweight and hated sports, I never got any white knight crusaders rushing to my aid, no equality or tolerance for me, just my parents trying in vain to get the teachers to actually fucking do something about it.

For victims of homophobic bullying there are organisations, awareness raisers, advertising campaigns, celebrities who speak out against it, fund raisers and other such things to aid young people who get hassle because of one small detail about them, all I got was cold comfort from the empty promise of the teachers maybe dedicating some time to it perhaps if they feel like it (it's still bullying and abuse, the difference is what's done about it).

'How do kids react when they've only been forcefed with the hetrosexual norms and values all their life?', this little number made me laugh a little because it almost sounds like you're trying to imply that being hetrosexual is somehow morally inferior or linked to prejudice, what exactly are 'hetrosexual norms and values'? Does our sexuality somehow define who we are morally? Isn't that something that the desire for equality was trying to disprove?

"Love can occur between a man and a woman, but also between a man and another man or a woman and another women. Only men and women can have children through sex, though but that doesn't mean that the feelings of homosexual are any less real or strange than the ones between heterosexual men and women. People are different, and it's okay to be different because we are all a bit different from eachother in some way or another. So I want you to bear this in mind if you meet a boy who loves other boys instead of loving girls, because even if you might not love boys like he does, he's not any less of a person than you are, just different from you. The same way you are different from him when you like blue shirts more than green shirts.

You want others to accept that you like blue shirts and not get teased or made fun of because you do, right? Then it's not hard to understand that a boy who likes boys more than he likes girls would want to be able to like what he likes without getting teased because of it, don't you agree?"

Pretty simple and clear cut explanation and one that a kid at a young age would eat up pretty easily.

So exactly what is it that you fear would "complicate" matters so much?
You said earlier that you can't tell what a child will encounter or when so what's to say that they will understand or even accept that if you tell them it?

My understanding, acceptance and tolerance of homosexuals stemmed from personal experience talking to people and from my own personal view of everyone just being people, not because my parents sat me down and gave me a lecture on how I should approach sexuality.

Sexuality is a very deep and complicated subject, there are people who devote their entire lives to trying to understand and explain it. Naturally this results in a lot of people who are insecure about their sexuality or get confused or doubtful about who or what they truely are, it's not just like picking a favourite colour, it's much bigger and more meaningful than that (for some people it shapes their interaction with people or even their entire lives) so trying to get a child to understand the real meaning and impact behind someone being gay is quite a large undertaking (hell, adults often can't quite get it, hence we have the whole problem of homophobia in the first place).

What you should be doing isn't to teach kids about how to deal with gays or bis but how to deal with people, if you're doing it right then the whole issue of sexuality shouldn't even cross their mind.

EDIT: I also liked how you neglected to comment on my third paragraph, you know, the one where I mentioned how statistics show that acceptance and tolerance of homosexuality is at an all time high and most people are supportive of the homosexual community and their efforts towards obtaining equality.
If a gay kid is being bullied, which MOST ARE, than MOST OF THE TIME, other kids bully also. Because kids are followers, and are desperate for approval. If you don't teach your kids about gay anything, their first experiences will most likely be in school with gay kids being made fun of, or TV, computer etc. And they will formulate their own views. And that is the problem. You hide the truth from your kids, they'll figure it out somewhere somehow, and you will have lost control of the situation.

Trying to trivialize anti-gay bullying is not acceptable, and yes, that's what your doing with the "everyone gets bullied you ain't special" and the "you have tons of LGBT groups." That dismissive attitude is the HEART of the problem. Gay/lesbian teens are gay/lesbian. Don't even GO THERE and say "small thing." No-one chooses their sexuality, and sexuality is an immutable inherent part of who someone is as a person. Most gay/lesbian teens are NOT ACCEPTED by their school system, classmates, and many times, their own parents. You don't have to be in the closet for being a nerd. There are other people who are openly nerdy. Most of the time, there are ZERO out gay people for a gay teen to find strength in. And there is no way they have the ability to look up to an out gay adult, because they don't even understand their sexuality or reject it, because they've been told they are bad or have the feeling everyone hates gay. So, let us not pretend the situation isn't dire, because it is dire, and has been dire forever.

It's true, there are heterosexual norms and values. That isn't offensive or attacking heterosexuals, it's a fact of life. That homosexual persons are inundated with heterosexuality their entire life. And that heterosexuals are in control of everything, whereas homosexuality is "not normal" or not on the same plane as heterosexuality. It's called heteronormality. You don't even recognize it, because you're straight. I'm not gay and I recognize it. People are taught that there is only one option, straight. Thus, all other options are incorrect options. That is the basis of the entire issue at hand, here, and why kids need to understand, no, gay is a legitimate option.

Gay acceptance comes from education. Not just "personal experiences." Education in general. You educate a person on the realities of a situation, and that is what they will learn to understand. Hiding everything gay from them is doing a disservice. That's silently teaching kids that gay isn't appropriate, and should be hidden. If you want to promote gay acceptance, sitting on your hands isn't going to make it happen.

If it were as simple as saying "just teach kids about people" then there wouldn't be this debate going on. It's not that easy, but teaching kids about the reality that some men like men and some women like women, is very easy. Just because A LOT OF HETEROSEXUALS ARE INSECURE AND UNCOMFORTABLE WITH HOMOSEXUALITY doesn't mean that it's justified they keep it secret. Absolutely not, that's indoctrinating, forcing their discomfort to affect their parenting. That's bad.

Homophobia is extremely real, and gay acceptance has increased a bit, but as this thread shows, heterosexism is alive and well. We have a long way to go to see REAL change, and that can only happen if enlightened individuals take the time to see that it happens.
 

bobknowsall

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The Hairminator said:
bobknowsall said:
No, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Go back through the last few pages, you'll see I called you out over assertions about "insecurity". That's what I'm referring to.

It's Ireland. Wasn't aware it was a competition, mind.
Take a joke, man! Though the line "And my home country's going to have a gay President. Go figure." kind of made me wonder if that wasn't how you saw it.

Also, to that I'm just gonna reply that you can go read what I wrote in reply to some of the others in the herd of the people who disagreed with me. It's a few pages back.
Nah, that's just me being snippy and critical. Nothing personal, you understand.

Yeah, I'll not have you repeating yourself. I'll check those posts out.
 

101flyboy

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this isnt my name said:
No I wouldnt. See hetrosexuality, is pretty much the whole "where do babies come from" thing, telling her about homosexualit would be "well that man/woman likes having sex with men/women because he/she thinks its fun". I would tell the kid to answer the question about sex, but if you say sex is something people do for fun, well it might encourage the kid, hich is bad. They will learn sex is fun at a safe age, 7 is not a safe age. Hope I explained properly.
Oh. People are gay because they just like to have fun indiscriminate sex. Interesting.
 

Thespian

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bobknowsall said:
Yep, David Norris. He's a Joycean scholar, too. Firm favourite for every party bar Fianna Fail.
Ah, I actually do know that guy. He took part in a debate in Trinity College a while ago, I believe, and I've watched out for his name ever since. He actually took part in a debate about whether or not homosexual people should have the right to marry, and he took the opposing side just to prove that he could debate about anything and still make an awesome speech.

Wow, I've gone horrendously off topic now. Apologies.
 

101flyboy

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The Hairminator said:
evilthecat said:
How many of these 'more often than not' cases have you encountered?
Let's see here: me, my sister, my sister's ex girlfriend, and another one of my sister's friends.

That said, I know a few who didn't "switch" either.
Please educate yourself on the facts of sexual orientation.
 

kickyourass

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Let me try and be as plain as possible, no matter what you do or say talking to your kids about sex is going to be awkward. Once you've come to grips with that please continue reading.

Now, since it's already going to be awkward for everyone involved, there really isn't any reason to NOT teach them about things other then man-woman relationships, if they're old enough to learn about that, they're old enough to learn about (almost) everything else. If you're just teaching them the mechanics of reproduction then ok, since man-woman is sorta the only way to do that with out getting other people involved, but other then that you really don't have much of an excuse.
 

101flyboy

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innocentEX said:
JRiseley said:
innocentEX said:
The Hairminator said:
No, I do not. I don't think homosexuality should be encouraged, unless it actually comes from the child itself, with as little as external influence as possible.

The same goes for the opposite- The kid will learn soon enough, and probably ask her parents about it- then they should tell her, naturally, as unbiased as they can. If she later finds out she is indeed actually queer, it would be better if she does not have any subconscious issues with it inherited from her parents.

But still, they should not be handled equally, as heterosexuality is still the norm- and the natural way to reproduce. If the children are gay, they will probably find it out themselves. The important thing is to then make sure they are neither ashamed or feel otherwise repressed.
I agree with this 100%.

It all comes down to the parent's decisions though, and they chose to have the child so its their burden and their choice on how to act on these matters. And it really isn't anyone else's business
innocentEX's post is both articulated offensively and utterly ridiculous. You're screwing with your child if you don't give them the talk at an incredibly pre-pubescent age. You're evidently offended by the idea of children being exposed to the idea of homosexuality, something which is bigoted. YOU CAN'T MAKE SOMEONE GAY, YOU ****. PEOPLE ARE BORN GAY. SO WHAT THE HELL DOES IT MATTER WHEN A CHILD IS EXPOSED TO HOMOSEXUALITY?!?!

/end rant.
I was more so agreeing about how he was going to handle telling the child when the child chooses to bring it up. I don't really understand why you are getting so riled up by my opinion. I am sorry I may have offended you and but this is how I will raise my children. The way your post came across is as if you didn't read the whole part in the OP's post that says "it would be better if she does not have any subconscious issues with it inherited from her parents." and "The important thing is to then make sure they are neither ashamed or feel otherwise repressed.".

These two statements support the growth of the child's sexuality whether heterosexual or homosexual.

I also never mentioned that I thought children could catch 'gay', I merely would like to bring up my children thinking that the normal way that humans as a species find love is between a man and a women. As this is the normal. I won't ever pressure this on the child just inform them that this is why most men and women live together. And if my child asks why homosexuals live together I will inform them that they live together for the same reasons that men and women do.

EDIT: I see you edited your post to sound less offensive and all your hate is aimed at the first poster, I guess that kind of makes my rebuttle kinda redundant. Also since when is 7, just before puberty? I thought most girls enter puberty around 10-14 and for guys its 12-14.
Translation: I don't want gay/lesbian kids and I will do everything in my power to avoid it. Being gay is abnormal and beneath heterosexuality.
 

101flyboy

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BonsaiK said:
lettucethesallad said:
Do you escapists think that children should be told about homosexuality and homosexual relationships at the same time as they're learning about straight relationships?
I wasn't told about any relationships when I was growing up. My parents simply never discussed that stuff with me - ever. I shudder to think what sort of conversation might have transpired had I ever brought the issue up. Luckily I managed to figure everything out more or less on my own thanks to discovering friend's pornographic magazines. There was no Internet porn back in my day, and to be honest I think the Internet makes sex ed on the basic hetero/homo mechanical level kind of redundant.
Studies show that the best way for kids to develop sexually is having their parents teaching them about it. Learning from a porno mag is not healthy. Because porn is not real sex and it objectifies sex, the human body, etc. And that will give kids a very mixed up view on basically the entire situation. Please do not believe I am saying you're mixed up, but no, that isn't something that should be encouraged or accepted as OK.
 

101flyboy

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Latinidiot said:
Don't tell her what isn't necessary. Don't go explaining to her the nuances and details of relationships, but tell her what she asks. Birds and bees, that's heterosexual.

When she asks 'mommy? can 2 women cuddle like that too?'
The parent should answer along the lines of 'yes, but you get no babies that way.'

stay neutral. Let your child get his own opinion.
What if that opinion is negative? What if that opinion is learned from another kid? What if that opinion is learned from accidentally watching sex on the computer? Teaching your kids nothing is keeping your kids ignorant, and ignorant kids make ignorant decisions.
 

101flyboy

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SaneAmongInsane said:
I probably wouldn't. Unless I see statistics to the contrary where half of the male/female population is gay, the child ending up being gay is a unique circumstance IMO. Nothing wrong with it, but it's complicated as it is with out bringing it up, handle it as it comes, I say.
Most people have same-sex thoughts. And, it doesn't even have to be about the kid being gay, but the world around them, that there are people who are gay. It's not something you can avoid, or pretend doesn't exist. And it isn't complicated. It may be for you, but in reality, it's just the fact some men like men, some women like women. And that's all you need to say to your kids.
 

101flyboy

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People who say "I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST HOMOSEXUALITY" actually do have something against homosexuality. If you don't have an issue with homosexuality, you wouldn't need to qualify it like that's somehow a surprise. It would be just like "gay.........OK." Saying "I don't have a problem with it" is more or less saying that there is a problem with it, but you choose not to hold that problem, even though it's there.

So that's the biggest issue needing to be addressed. Heterosexist homophobia, and a lot of you are heterosexist homophobes, and you don't even recognize it.
 

101flyboy

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Mimsofthedawg said:
lettucethesallad said:
My pregnant sister has a 7 year old step-daughter who's in the process of learning about the birds and the bees. I was a little rattled to learn that my sister is only teaching her about hetrosexual relations, saying that it would be 'inappropriate' to tell her about homosexuality at such an early age as the step-daughter might discuss it at school and awkward phone calls from the teachers might follow. Since my sister is in a hetrosexual marriage she argued that it's what her step-daughter encounters on a daily basis, and thus is what she should be taught as the 'norm'.

Do you escapists think that children should be told about homosexuality and homosexual relationships at the same time as they're learning about straight relationships?
you're sister's right. the appropriate thing is to teach what children experience on a day to day basis - if her child were to encounter a homosexual, then teaching may be of value - but by in large not only is the child not developed enough to understand it conceptually, it would simply be inappropriate because the child wouldn't be able to logically process what it means to be homosexual. Essentially, this means its irrelevant or information the child would not use "wisely" (ie - the child may make inappropriate gestures at school, such as calling a classmate gay, or thinking she's gay because most of her friends are females). It's just something that's hardly relevant to a seven year old, particularly one who has no homosexual influences in her life (and thus wouldn't understand it).

If, say, the girl came from a homosexual family or the girl's mother had homosexual friends, then she should be taught - but only because then she could appreciate it.

This sort of thing isn't just limited to homosexual relationships. Children don't learn about the concept of death until they experience some form of it (for example, a gold fish or pet dies; maybe a grandparent), but frankly, I would think death is more important to learn about than homosexuality; but the same principle applies.
Excuse me, but there is no process in learning "what it means to be homosexual." There isn't any complicated philosophical explanation, it's very simple. Some men like men, some women like women. I mean, it's not as if a kid is going to automatically understand heterosexuality MORE than homosexuality whatsoever. They may say "that guy and girl are together." These are kids, they aren't 20. Gay is not a process, and if you teach kids about heterosexuality, than the same things apply with a kid potentially saying "Oh look, Jane and Joe are walking together, they are with each other, hahahaha." Saying it's not relevant is false, because the fact is, that 7 year old may end up gay/lesbian. Most kids have same-sex thoughts, and homosexuality is an every day part of life. Hiding from discussing it is creating a culture of stigma around it, and that is what leads to homophobia.

It's not as if homosexuality is radically different than heterosexuality. All of the same concepts apply to both cases, the only difference is the procreation aspect, the fact one is more common than the other, and that's it.
 

101flyboy

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Mimsofthedawg said:
TiloXofXTanto said:
Yes, without a doubt. To only teach such children about the side that they feel is "appropriate", or to prolong telling them about it until a later time, would be akin to teaching them that it is wrong or unnatural in some way, especially when they are later surrounded by people who use the term incorrectly but are aware of the definition it holds (and the last thing we need is more teenagers who use the word "gay" like the end-all solution to all insults instead of realizing and respecting another lifestyle held by a group of people).
gay was started as an insult; in fact to use it in it's appropriate, proper term is to say, "That's gay." because the two original means for gay were: unusual, near-deviant happiness; and wanton, unnecessary, or strange actions/behaviors. Homosexuals were called gay for both of those reasons in a derogatory way. It's akin to black people demanding everyone call them ******, even though that was a derogatory term white slave holders used for them. It doesn't make any sense. I personally feel the term "gay" has been hijacked by homosexuals and should be used appropriately (meaning its traditional phrases). However, barring that, the term should be eliminated altogether. I personally believe homosexuals are disrespecting themselves by using it, and thus, I do not use it to refer to homosexuals whatsoever.
Homosexuals is a clinical, cold term, and does not define gay individuals, whose lives revolve around more than their sex acts. And yes, gay was an insult, and yes, the gays DID take the word and flip it and stand strong behind it. That's a positive. Times change, words change. But it isn't as if gay isn't still used negatively. It is. And that's a problem.
 

Sneeze

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They shouldn't be "taught" it anymore than they are "taught" about straight relationships, just learn from experience and influences around them. Friends, family, and more to the point - media. It's slowly fixing itself now but 5-10 years ago if a gay kiss was show pre-watershed there'd be a massive controversy with it. If it was just represented in the same why straight relationships are all the time on TV and in Movies then children would just grow up under the impression it was normal, not something they find out about later on in life, by that point its weird.

What I'm trying to say is if it was just integrated into society as a "norm" there'd be no need to teach it.