Teaching Kids to be Dumb Adults

[lacktheknack]

As the educational system grows, your dependency grows, your alternatives go away. If you were talented at music, why does this person need to master algebra? If you're talented and passionate about math, why do you need to learn how to throw a ball into a hoop?

They need to learn algebra because being able to balance your finances is universally important. The very concept of "balancing numbers" is algebraic.

They ought to learn how to put the ball in the hoop because physical activity shouldn't be optional.

One can make arguments about more advanced high-school concepts being unneeded, but here in Canada, they dissolve away into options after grade 10 anyways. I don't think the USA is much different.

Now, whether the US schools are doing a good job is a different question entirely, but I have my doubts that it's to "indoctrinate the public" by making them take classes they're not great at.

 

[JaceArveduin]

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

 

[Fox12]

I'm not sure they should make either compulsory. If attendance was voluntary, schools would be forced to meet the low, low standard of actually being worthwhile.

Oh, hell no. Compulsory schooling was the one of the best things to happen to modern society. Why? Because if school is voluntary, regardless of how "worthwhile" it is, some kids just won't go. Firstly, look at the history. When compulsory schooling was established, literacy rates shot up (as did the number of people who could do arithmetic, etc.) Without compulsory school you get a population who can't read, can't do even the basic day-to-day math, and can't even find the US on a map, much less understand issues that affect them or the world. In short you get a stupid, easily manipulated populace that can't compete on a global scale. What's more, poor kids are historically most likely to avoid school, and if the poor are uneducated, they have no realistic social mobility.

"But," you say, "If school was voluntary, schools would improve so everyone would attend." This is a pipe dream, with two huge problems. First of all, some people still wouldn't go, as I said above. What's more, for this to happen schools would need an incentive to gain attendance-- no institution does anything if it doesn't help sustain itself. The only feasible incentive is competition for money, like colleges, which would not simply create a quality gap between bad, less-funded schools and better ones-- just like colleges and providing no real advantages over today's schools. Does the education system need a lot of improvement? Yes, absolutely. But voluntary school does not and will not work.

The primary issue here is... our educational system is a joke. 90% of what they teach you is simply wrong. Schooling isn't about education anymore, it's a way for the government and political parties to indoctrinate children into their way of thinking. I'm a history major, and I can promise you, EVERYTHING they teach in school reeks of political bias from both sides. Your government isn't interested in teaching you the truth, it's interested in molding your mind to be dependent. There's active movement in existence right now to rewrite history. I mean seriously, most Americans still think that Columbus discovered that the earth was round. There's a debate raging in Texas where a school book edited the wording of the second amendment in order to influence students understanding of history. I remember this subtle bias in my own schooling. You'll here about the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979, sure, but you will NEVER hear about the Iranian coup by CIA officials in 1953, or about how we deposed democratically elected presidents and replaced them with dictators who committed war crimes against their own people. When you control the flow of information to the people, you turn them into slaves. I think this is the issue OP was highlighting.

I would love to see a greater privatization of the educational system, the federal government is completely inept at best, and actively malicious at worst. I have never met a public school student with a better education then a home schooled student.

 

[lacktheknack]

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

Left. There's no door visible.

 

[the doom cannon]

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

Left. There's no door visible.

there are multiple answers to that question. Completely dumb basis to judge mental capacity. here are solutions off the top of my head:
1) the bus isn't moving. There is no indication of motion
2) the bus is moving left, for the reason you stated as the correct solution
3) the bus is from England or Japan or anywhere else where driving is done on the left side of the road, hence going right for the same reason you stated
4) It's a new bus that goes both directions, hence the symmetric shape

etc etc. That is generally the case for a lot of these "adults get questions wrong that elementary school kids get right" scenarios. At least the ones that aren't along the lines of "what is 1+1."

 

[Xman490]

I can attest to how bad even the private education system is in my area - and maybe yours, too.

Imagine this: you hear that in order to get into a graduate business school, you must take a "standardized test". That test is known as the GMAT. Now, I thought that it was going to be similar to the SAT - but slightly harder. It turns out that, from a sample of GMAT questions, all are based on critical thinking and complex logic. Nothing in my private high school - one originally established by Jesuit Catholic scholar-priests - taught me this kind of thinking, and only 2 or 3 courses in my 40-course college curriculum taught me critical thinking - but only to unsubstantial extents.

If the GMAT and figuring out the ins and outs of problems is supposed to be the standard, our education system is almost irrevocably below the standard.

 

[Platypus540]

I'm not sure they should make either compulsory. If attendance was voluntary, schools would be forced to meet the low, low standard of actually being worthwhile.

Oh, hell no. Compulsory schooling was the one of the best things to happen to modern society. Why? Because if school is voluntary, regardless of how "worthwhile" it is, some kids just won't go. Firstly, look at the history. When compulsory schooling was established, literacy rates shot up (as did the number of people who could do arithmetic, etc.) Without compulsory school you get a population who can't read, can't do even the basic day-to-day math, and can't even find the US on a map, much less understand issues that affect them or the world. In short you get a stupid, easily manipulated populace that can't compete on a global scale. What's more, poor kids are historically most likely to avoid school, and if the poor are uneducated, they have no realistic social mobility.

"But," you say, "If school was voluntary, schools would improve so everyone would attend." This is a pipe dream, with two huge problems. First of all, some people still wouldn't go, as I said above. What's more, for this to happen schools would need an incentive to gain attendance-- no institution does anything if it doesn't help sustain itself. The only feasible incentive is competition for money, like colleges, which would not simply create a quality gap between bad, less-funded schools and better ones-- just like colleges and providing no real advantages over today's schools. Does the education system need a lot of improvement? Yes, absolutely. But voluntary school does not and will not work.

Every problem you just said is here today, and getting worse. Literacy going down? Check. Pockets of deep segregation, check. Easily manipulated populations? DOUBLE CHECK. Can't find the us on the map, cant figure out what 76 + 1682 is, don't know how a bill passes into law, check check check.

As the educational system grows, your dependency grows, your alternatives go away. If you were talented at music, why does this person need to master algebra? If you're talented and passionate about math, why do you need to learn how to throw a ball into a hoop?

I know the educational system is garbage(although I'd like a source on literacy going down), I even mentioned that, I'm just saying making it voluntary won't help, and would probably exacerbate all those problems.

 

[Platypus540]

I'm not sure they should make either compulsory. If attendance was voluntary, schools would be forced to meet the low, low standard of actually being worthwhile.

Oh, hell no. Compulsory schooling was the one of the best things to happen to modern society. Why? Because if school is voluntary, regardless of how "worthwhile" it is, some kids just won't go. Firstly, look at the history. When compulsory schooling was established, literacy rates shot up (as did the number of people who could do arithmetic, etc.) Without compulsory school you get a population who can't read, can't do even the basic day-to-day math, and can't even find the US on a map, much less understand issues that affect them or the world. In short you get a stupid, easily manipulated populace that can't compete on a global scale. What's more, poor kids are historically most likely to avoid school, and if the poor are uneducated, they have no realistic social mobility.

"But," you say, "If school was voluntary, schools would improve so everyone would attend." This is a pipe dream, with two huge problems. First of all, some people still wouldn't go, as I said above. What's more, for this to happen schools would need an incentive to gain attendance-- no institution does anything if it doesn't help sustain itself. The only feasible incentive is competition for money, like colleges, which would not simply create a quality gap between bad, less-funded schools and better ones-- just like colleges and providing no real advantages over today's schools. Does the education system need a lot of improvement? Yes, absolutely. But voluntary school does not and will not work.

The primary issue here is... our educational system is a joke. 90% of what they teach you is simply wrong. Schooling isn't about education anymore, it's a way for the government and political parties to indoctrinate children into their way of thinking. I'm a history major, and I can promise you, EVERYTHING they teach in school reeks of political bias from both sides. Your government isn't interested in teaching you the truth, it's interested in molding your mind to be dependent. There's active movement in existence right now to rewrite history. I mean seriously, most Americans still think that Columbus discovered that the earth was round. There's a debate raging in Texas where a school book edited the wording of the second amendment in order to influence students understanding of history. I remember this subtle bias in my own schooling. You'll here about the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979, sure, but you will NEVER hear about the Iranian coup by CIA officials in 1953, or about how we deposed democratically elected presidents and replaced them with dictators who committed war crimes against their own people. When you control the flow of information to the people, you turn them into slaves. I think this is the issue OP was highlighting.

I would love to see a greater privatization of the educational system, the federal government is completely inept at best, and actively malicious at worst. I have never met a public school student with a better education then a home schooled student.

All I was getting at was that voluntary school is a bad idea. I'm well aware of the failings of our educational system.

ALTHOUGH, regarding your points, I learned the correct versions of everything you listed in my public school. It really depends on where you go-- and that's the problem. Also the federal government doesn't write curricula, so that's the states' fault.

 

[lacktheknack]

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

Left. There's no door visible.

there are multiple answers to that question. Completely dumb basis to judge mental capacity. here are solutions off the top of my head:
1) the bus isn't moving. There is no indication of motion
2) the bus is moving left, for the reason you stated as the correct solution
3) the bus is from England or Japan or anywhere else where driving is done on the left side of the road, hence going right for the same reason you stated
4) It's a new bus that goes both directions, hence the symmetric shape

etc etc. That is generally the case for a lot of these "adults get questions wrong that elementary school kids get right" scenarios. At least the ones that aren't along the lines of "what is 1+1."

But that's the thing.

The exact question was "this bus is moving, which direction is it going?" and it was an American test.

So "It's going left" is the only reasonable answer. And most adults just said "I dunno. Uh, left/right?"

 

[gavinmcinns]

I'm not sure they should make either compulsory. If attendance was voluntary, schools would be forced to meet the low, low standard of actually being worthwhile.

Oh, hell no. Compulsory schooling was the one of the best things to happen to modern society. Why? Because if school is voluntary, regardless of how "worthwhile" it is, some kids just won't go. Firstly, look at the history. When compulsory schooling was established, literacy rates shot up (as did the number of people who could do arithmetic, etc.) Without compulsory school you get a population who can't read, can't do even the basic day-to-day math, and can't even find the US on a map, much less understand issues that affect them or the world. In short you get a stupid, easily manipulated populace that can't compete on a global scale. What's more, poor kids are historically most likely to avoid school, and if the poor are uneducated, they have no realistic social mobility.

"But," you say, "If school was voluntary, schools would improve so everyone would attend." This is a pipe dream, with two huge problems. First of all, some people still wouldn't go, as I said above. What's more, for this to happen schools would need an incentive to gain attendance-- no institution does anything if it doesn't help sustain itself. The only feasible incentive is competition for money, like colleges, which would not simply create a quality gap between bad, less-funded schools and better ones-- just like colleges and providing no real advantages over today's schools. Does the education system need a lot of improvement? Yes, absolutely. But voluntary school does not and will not work.

Every problem you just said is here today, and getting worse. Literacy going down? Check. Pockets of deep segregation, check. Easily manipulated populations? DOUBLE CHECK. Can't find the us on the map, cant figure out what 76 + 1682 is, don't know how a bill passes into law, check check check.

As the educational system grows, your dependency grows, your alternatives go away. If you were talented at music, why does this person need to master algebra? If you're talented and passionate about math, why do you need to learn how to throw a ball into a hoop?

I know the educational system is garbage(although I'd like a source on literacy going down), I even mentioned that, I'm just saying making it voluntary won't help, and would probably exacerbate all those problems.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States it depends on what your definition of what literacy is. The average american reads at a 7th or 8th grade level, which they define as being able to read prescription bottles and science fiction novels, arbitrary standard if you ask me.

 

[jetriot]

Whoah, there is a hell of a lot of posturing in this thread.

Trying to prove how superior your developed capacity for abstract thinking is compared to children, and how woefully underprepared teachers and substitutes are to handle the incredibly difficult task of teaching children how to think in a critical manner?

Ironic that such posturing is happening while the original post provides opening discussion about a lack of development in children relating to critical thinking. Maybe "Teaching kids to be dumb adults" is more than just 'dumb adults' Mmm?

Even going as far as to example a trick question which is as much a riddle as it is a test. Answering it towards minimums in logic demands an inability to analyse the question, failing to see that the question misses information relating to it's answer. To answer 'correctly' you need to either assume the missing information and substitute your assumption as the answer, or recall verbatim the answer already given to you. Both approaches finalises the question without understanding the context, which paves the way for a natural tendency towards disregard for critical thinking.

Answering the trick question by either dismissing it, or answering with a question relating to the missing information, can be considered a 'failure' which as a child is generally frowned upon by it's teachers. Surely, everyone knows that a teacher frowning upon a child is usually a bad experience for the child? Pity all those harsh feelings mask the true damage done to the child; Answering incorrectly will have a very high chance of making the child feel shame for their will to question, making them prefer the 'correct' choice over the 'incorrect' choice.

See the problem with this?

Oh, wait, no you don't. I see some political rambling going on in this thread too. Well, it is all pointless in the end if you are going as far as to mash politics in with schooling, right? As much as it can be true that the road to politics starts in school, assuming that school functions by politics is a rough deal indeed, as the reality is more insidious than may be imagined.

My own experience of being schooled was a hilariously harrowing affair for not only myself, but my teachers as well. My ceaseless will to question always made me 'incorrect' and a 'failure' more times than was really needed and resulted in me excelling in what I wasn't good at, and utterly failing in what I was good at. Sure was confusing when my teachers didn't get what they expected, hah.

As such, any standpoint that asserts that the schooling system for many parts of the world is too standardised to properly handle those children that fall outside of the expected norms is an assertion that I entirely support. I would recommend not focusing on how the schooling system fails though, I'd instead like attentions to be focused on shortcomings of the system and how it can be improved. Attempting to overhaul such an extensive system in a half-assed way is entirely the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.

Wow. As an educator I applaud and fear you. Yet, the masses in the rest of the classroom will continue to drone on about the inconsequential and irrelevant, ignoring the one person that has a real understanding.

 

[the doom cannon]

But that's the thing.

The exact question was "this bus is moving, which direction is it going?" and it was an American test.

So "It's going left" is the only reasonable answer. And most adults just said "I dunno. Uh, left/right?"

I would still argue that there is insufficient information to answer that question. Many buses I ride have doors on both sides. It could be a weird bus(judging by the shape) that has an unusual boarding feature on either end. If it was phrased "This is a traditional school bus moving along the street. What direction is it going?" then and only then is your answer the only one. This is what I get for being taught to question things and think critically during my education. Oh wait, wasn't that what this whole topic was saying didn't ever happen?

 

[werewolfgold]

But that's the thing.

The exact question was "this bus is moving, which direction is it going?" and it was an American test.

So "It's going left" is the only reasonable answer. And most adults just said "I dunno. Uh, left/right?"

But, that still doesn't work 100% because in the end, with how simple the drawing is, one could infer that there may not even be a door as it's just an abstract representation of a bus.

 

[Quadocky]

Jeezus, whats with all the haranguing of the school system? Yeah it has problems (which could be solved rather easily and fairly given time)

The whole thing about critical thinking is bogus. Critical thinking is simply asking the right questions while putting aside preconceived notions.

Also, in regards to education: it was originally purely the domain of the wealthy and affluent.

Lastly, all teachers I know only teach because they WANT to teach. Not because they are out and about trying to indoctrinate children or other some such rot.

 

[Yopaz]

Part of the problem is the educators.

My brother came to me, stating that most of his colleagues couldn't answer this question.

Last year, Joe was three times the age of his little brother Tom. This year, he is only twice as old as Tom. How old is Tom?

My brother is a substitute teacher. Has colleagues are actual teachers who couldn't figure this shit out. No fucking idea at all. Meanwhile, (God I hope) you can pick that answer out in seconds.

At the risk of sounding stupid here I would go ahead and answer that Tom is 2.

Since 1*3=3
And 2*2=4

If it's really that simple anyone should be able to figure that out about as quickly as they can read it.

Now I'm unfamiliar with the American education system, but I have deep knowledge about my own education system (I actually got some education about our education system) and while we try to encourage critical thinking and we require it for the best grades we suffer a lot of the same problems.

I've tried to teach a high school science class about atoms, waves, radiation and the Aurora Borealis. I couldn't do it because it felt like I was teaching them lies. This gets better in later subjects such as chemistry, physics and biology, but high school science is something related to magic as far as I'm concerned.

We're teaching them about energy saving light bulbs. How they're so much better because they don't release as much energy in the form of heat. We live in a cold dark country where the times where it's dark enough for us to need light bulbs we also need heat. Energy saving light bulbs contain heavy metals (I think mercury is among them) which we're not supposed to use. They're also made of plastic rather than glass. We don't teach them this because we're supposed to teach them that they're better because they conserve electricity.

We make efforts into getting them to use the knowledge they have rather than repeat it, but we still got leagues to go. Critical thinking is the hardest thing to teach and it's easy to simply influence them into your path of critical thinking rather than actual critical thinking.

The question is, does it matter? Should schools expend efforts into teaching these things?

I haven't been taught to think they way I do, but I have been influenced by teachers, friends, family, internet forums, media and coupled that with my knowledge. Schools should encourage critical thinking, but I don't think it's possible to teach it properly. Display it, encourage it and most importantly, don't discourage it.

 

[FalloutJack]

They've been trying conformity-training since at least the 50s. Didn't take. Probably won't ever.

 

[jetriot]

Anyway, as an educator that has taught around the world I have a few short points to make.

1. The American education system ins't bad. In fact it is great.

2. It is incredibly diverse and no one can objectively say the entire 'system' is bad when there are in reality thousands of systems in existence(50 states, private schools, board schools, home schools, alternative, etc.)

3. American students are superior critical thinkers. I don't know if this is cultural or a function of the education system itself. However, American public school students reject authority and are willing to create their own answers and solve their own problems with the least amount of scaffolding. This is especially true when matched up against the Confucian based education systems in Asia. While my American students always had more difficulty memorizing facts, reading through large amounts of content or performing complex equations, they were generally much better at interpreting, analyzing, creating their own solutions and forming their own opinions. Again, I am not certain if this is a function of theory's like Bloom's Taxonomy having played such an important role in American education over the last few decades or if it is simply cultural.

4. Education problems in America are generally less a problem with the system itself than societal problems. IE: Fatherless homes, family's that don't place an importance on education, etc. Statistically America doesn't do as well because it attempts to educate, not only all of its students but a more diverse group of students. English language learners(ELLs) make up a large portion of the K-12 system and are held to the same standards that native speakers are held to. This population isn't stupid but it is obviously a great deal more difficult to learn content while also learning a new language and the catch up time is immense. Even students that speak the language will struggle to read and write(especially academically) for years. On top of this America includes the stats of everyone under the special educations umbrella. EDs, LDs, CDs, Autism Spectrum, the list goes on and on. When looking at stats one has to realize that America attempts to educate everyone which is noble but then it judges them based on them same standards, which is foolish. The stats will be forever weighted against them.

5. Teachers are more highly qualified than ever before. Have you ever tried to teach? The hoops a person has to jump through to teach in this country are incredible. The standards a teacher has to meet to be considered qualified are more stringent than any other country(even considering that these vary wildly state to state). This is more true in the last decade than in the past and yes, there are bad teachers who slip through the cracks or are simply broken by the system or their students, but the standard to get there is high. Bachelors, EDTPAs, Praxis exams every few years, certifications and cert renewals, keeping up with new content standards, new teaching initiatives and learning theories, the slightest of crimes guaranteeing the end of a career, constant evals and then your wage and 'performance levels' are published in the paper for the entire world to see. I can not think of another career field in America that requires as much from a person.

There is a lot I would like to do to change the education system in America. However, I do remain firm in my belief that, as a whole, it remains one of the world's greatest endeavors of all time.

 

[Miss G.]

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

Left. There's no door visible.

there are multiple answers to that question. Completely dumb basis to judge mental capacity. here are solutions off the top of my head:
1) the bus isn't moving. There is no indication of motion
2) the bus is moving left, for the reason you stated as the correct solution
3) the bus is from England or Japan or anywhere else where driving is done on the left side of the road, hence going right for the same reason you stated
4) It's a new bus that goes both directions, hence the symmetric shape

etc etc. That is generally the case for a lot of these "adults get questions wrong that elementary school kids get right" scenarios. At least the ones that aren't along the lines of "what is 1+1."

But that's the thing.

The exact question was "this bus is moving, which direction is it going?" and it was an American test.

So "It's going left" is the only reasonable answer. And most adults just said "I dunno. Uh, left/right?"

I wish you'd stated that it was an American test in the first place. We drive on the left in my country, thus, I would've said it was going right due to the lack of visible door.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm really rather glad I'm walking out of college with no student loan debt. Aside from a credit card I need to pay off, I'm in a pretty good spot financially.

Wish I really had choose a better major than what I did... English. I'm going to end up stuck working in an office job for the rest of mylife.

http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bus.jpg
Which way is this bus going?

Apparently, 90%+ of the kindergartners got it right, while only 60% of the adults did. Abstract thinking is either something kids do well, or something we beat out of people.

Looks be be at a rest to me, since it doesn't appear to be moving.

What's the correct answer, anyway?

Left. There's no door visible.

there are multiple answers to that question. Completely dumb basis to judge mental capacity. here are solutions off the top of my head:
1) the bus isn't moving. There is no indication of motion
2) the bus is moving left, for the reason you stated as the correct solution
3) the bus is from England or Japan or anywhere else where driving is done on the left side of the road, hence going right for the same reason you stated
4) It's a new bus that goes both directions, hence the symmetric shape

etc etc. That is generally the case for a lot of these "adults get questions wrong that elementary school kids get right" scenarios. At least the ones that aren't along the lines of "what is 1+1."

But that's the thing.

The exact question was "this bus is moving, which direction is it going?" and it was an American test.

So "It's going left" is the only reasonable answer. And most adults just said "I dunno. Uh, left/right?"

That's a beyond stupid test though. Show me an actual school bus I could of gotten it, otherwise it looks barely anything like a bus so why would I assume it had door at all? Hell the wheels aren't attached to the fucking thing, so it ain't going any where.

 

[Thaluikhain]

That's a beyond stupid test though. Show me an actual school bus I could of gotten it, otherwise it looks barely anything like a bus so why would I assume it had door at all? Hell the wheels aren't attached to the fucking thing, so it ain't going any where.

Likewise, you can't see a driver. You can't see the door through what I guess are windows either.

Not seeing the value of this test.