Where does 'they made it accessable, so now it sucks' come from... plain and simple past experience, there has never been a time where someone dropped the accessibility bomb and not chopped off near all extras(possibly also challenge) in their game.
If the trend was to simply add a baby food mode without fucking up the good stuff then that would be our default conclusion, but sadly it seems that "innovation" has yet to come along.
There is a term in anthropology called the image of limited good, where people tend to view all things (such as access to higher level items, wealth, etc.) as being finite, even when there is virtually no limit. When someone profits, they see it as taking away from someone else. Because someone else has what I have, what I have is now worth less.
That's the thing. It is elitism, but no one's ever told me why that's bad in a way that doesn't sound whiney. "Wahh, someone has something nice that they put a lot of time and effort in to get. I want it too without all that icky work. How dare those big meanies not share the reward they worked so hard for."
Okay, that little quote of yours? No one is saying that. No one ever says that. No one wants something to be nerfed so much that it feels like it's just being given to you. But at the same time, most people don't appreciate, as in your example, an entire class that a large majority of players (I'm guessing? Never played that game) will never get to play.
From what I've heard, Galaxies wasn't exactly the golden standard of game design, what with NGE and all. Most people are reasonable; most people like a good middle ground, and this whole "If it's not super hard, and nigh-unobtainable for people with lives outside the game, then it's being given away" bullshit needs to stop. Just because something is obtainable by people with jobs, families, and other hobbies, doesn't mean it's been "Dumbed down." Instead of just giving everyone immediate access to the class, they could've made it slightly easier or less time consuming to get, so people with jobs, families, and who enjoy going outside now & then could have a chance at playing it too, but it would still feel like an accomplishment.
Too much of anything is bad for you. If something is too easy, you'll get tired of it. If it's too hard, you'll get tired of it. As I said earlier, there is a world of difference between giving something away, and a small nerf to how hard or time consuming it is to get, and that seems to be completely lost on most elitists.
There is a term in anthropology called the image of limited good, where people tend to view all things (such as access to higher level items, wealth, etc.) as being finite, even when there is virtually no limit. When someone profits, they see it as taking away from someone else. Because someone else has what I have, what I have is now worth less.
How cool was the Recon helmet in Halo 3 after Bungie made it available to everyone? Or even the flaming helmets after "Flaming Helmet Day" where everyone got to wear one for 24 hours?
How awesome are shiny Pokemon when you hack them into your game save?
It's quite incredible the amount of gamers who don't understand this concept. They believe that game developers make things hard because they are incompetent, that game developers are making a mistake when they make something exclusive. They think, "That's SO cool, but it's exclusive, so think of all the COOL that isn't happening because only a minority of players can have it."
How many hours would people grind to have red Lightning as a Wizard instead of the regular blue Lightning? People would kill themselves over it, until Blizzard sold it for $10, then THE VALUE IS NOW GONE. Like Black Lotus in MTG.
To give out more of an item is to decrease its value, esp. if it is tradeable. Does not matter if the item is "finite" or not. Since nobody can make the item in Diablo but Blizzard, it IS "finite" and not "infinite" until Blizzard sits down and MAKES an "infinite" amount, or someone dupes it and crashes the market/desire for it.
EDIT:
BarbaricGoose said:
"If it's not super hard, and nigh-unobtainable for people with lives outside the game, then it's being given away" bullshit needs to stop. Just because something is obtainable by people with jobs, families, and other hobbies, doesn't mean it's been "Dumbed down." Instead of just giving everyone immediate access to the class, they could've made it slightly easier or less time consuming to get, so people with jobs, families, and who enjoy going outside now & then could have a chance at playing it too, but it would still feel like an accomplishment.
But you aren't understanding the problem. It's not the casuals that are upset, it is the hardcore fans. Because (some) casuals believe that anything in the game should be attainable on THEIR schedule, the developers make everything doable with "normal dude" effort levels. If casuals could obtain 99% of the items in a game, but that shiny 1% eluded them due to being "insanely hard" their game experience would somehow suffer, even if that 1% were a cosmetic item or the like. It's totally okay to make a game that dedicates itself to catering to the "normal" schedules/attention spans, but don't expect the hardcore crowd to stick around, the crowd that populates your conventions, buys your merchandise, promotes your game for free, streams your game live, creates fan sites and content, and generally keeps the game alive for decades after you've stopped marketing it. See Diablo 2. Hell, D2 is on the shelves at my LOCAL WALMART, and it came out 14 YEARS AGO. Testament to the power of the hardcore fanbase.
It's not about things NEEDING to be hard for the entire playerbase. It's about lack of hard content for hardcore fans to tackle, due to outcry from casuals that anything in the game should be attainable by people who don't have time to work for it. Again, totally fine. Plenty of app games run on this model. None have hardcore fanbases.
Yeah, the term is 'disappointed', because not every change is for the better, and sometimes 'making it more accessible' means sucking the challenge out of it. I don't know much about the changes in Diablo 3, but I can understand the disappointment when you spent time over coming a challenge only for it to not exist any more.
Zachary Amaranth said:
Hipster?
I mean, it's basically outrage that other people can enjoy it, which is more or less the hipster stereotype when it comes to art/entertainment.
Where did the OP say these people were upset because it appealed to other people? I get you're probably making the assumption from just the title, but you don't really believe everyone who dislikes changes to make things 'accessible' just hate because more people can enjoy it? Yeah, sure, they're out there, but there are also people who see it other way.
Edit: the guy above me has a Yes avatar. That's fucking awesome.
Salus said:
BarbaricGoose said:
"If it's not super hard, and nigh-unobtainable for people with lives outside the game, then it's being given away" bullshit needs to stop. Just because something is obtainable by people with jobs, families, and other hobbies, doesn't mean it's been "Dumbed down." Instead of just giving everyone immediate access to the class, they could've made it slightly easier or less time consuming to get, so people with jobs, families, and who enjoy going outside now & then could have a chance at playing it too, but it would still feel like an accomplishment.
But you aren't understanding the problem. It's not the casuals that are upset, it is the hardcore fans. Because (some) casuals believe that anything in the game should be attainable on THEIR schedule, the developers make everything doable with "normal dude" effort levels. If casuals could obtain 99% of the items in a game, but that shiny 1% eluded them due to being "insanely hard" their game experience would somehow suffer, even if that 1% were a cosmetic item or the like. It's totally okay to make a game that dedicates itself to catering to the "normal" schedules/attention spans, but don't expect the hardcore crowd to stick around, the crowd that populates your conventions, buys your merchandise, promotes your game for free, streams your game live, creates fan sites and content, and generally keeps the game alive for decades after you've stopped marketing it. See Diablo 2. Hell, D2 is on the shelves at my LOCAL WALMART, and it came out 14 YEARS AGO. Testament to the power of the hardcore fanbase.
It's not about things NEEDING to be hard for the entire playerbase. It's about lack of hard content for hardcore fans to tackle, due to outcry from casuals that anything in the game should be attainable by people who don't have time to work for it. Again, totally fine. Plenty of app games run on this model. None have hardcore fanbases.
I think I'm understanding just fine. You're one of the people to which I was referring; one of those people who thinks that if things aren't exclusive, and super hard to obtain, they're being given away to those filthy, casualist pigs. (Heh.)
Believe me, I realize that the genetically superior, golden god hardcore fans are upset, but they seem to think that the dirty, ugly casuals are the root of all their problems. The handsome, chivalrous hardcore fans are railing against the disgusting, smelly casuals, because they seem to think they want everything handed to them. But they don't. When you think "Casual" (Fucking casuals) you think of someone who's trying to ruin your gaming experience. But they're really not--honest.
I fall somewhere between an unkempt, hideous casual and a glorious, delightful smelling hardcore. Frankly, I'm indifferent to whether or not I get, say, the flaming helmet in Halo. I honestly couldn't care less. No one is saying that the helmet ("Hardcore content") shouldn't exist, and no one's saying it should be easy to obtain, either. That said, I wouldn't object if instead of requiring 5 million kills, it was reduced to, say, 4 million. (I have ZERO idea if that's how it's obtained.) Still miles out of my league, and not at all being given away, but made slightly less time consuming, no doubt.
If a dev doesn't include content for the noble, admirable hardcore player base, it's not because the lobotomized, sterile casuals are lobbying against it. Your idea of a "Casual," that is, someone who is actively trying to ruin your gaming experience by making all content a total pushover, DOESN'T EXIST. There does, however, seem to be a rather large contingent of gorgeous, immaculate hardcore fans who don't want the fetid, unsightly casuals anywhere near their games. Especially the "Hardcore darling" games like Dark Souls. And by the way, I was into Dark Souls back when it was called Demon's Souls, and I'm not a flawless, honorable hardcore. /hipster.
As I keep trying to say, there's a WORLD of difference between something being given away, and a nerf that makes things a little more accessible. Not everything is black & white, thankfully. This "All or nothing," "Impossible, or a push over" attitude gets no one anywhere. Anyone who asks for the "Flaming helmet" to just be handed over to them is no better than the people who think it should only be obtainable by .0000000001% of all players.
As for that whole "Only hardcore fans go to conventions and buy merch" thing, I disagree. There are plenty of untouchable, leper casuals amidst the lordly, dignified hardcores. Even if they don't deserve to be. (Goddamn casuals.)
All of that was tongue in cheek. I feel like if I don't spell it out, I'll get reported.
Often times I see what some people call "dumbing down" as rational decisions that make the games far more enjoyable, not necessarily more accessible. There's a faction of people who describe themselves as Elder Scrolls fans of the hardcore ilk and who bemoan the addition of quest markers to the series. .
Or you could try to understand their reason to bemoan it, like the fact that with the implementation of quest markers Bethesda removed the decision to find the place yourself there are no option to get a description of the place nor the route. So good luck finding it without following the marker.
Most of the time when people complain about dump down games it is not because they don't want you to enjoy the game but because some of want they loved about its predecessor was remove for it there by making the game less enjoyable and often less special from other games for the same kind.
Edit: the guy above me has a Yes avatar. That's fucking awesome.
Salus said:
BarbaricGoose said:
"If it's not super hard, and nigh-unobtainable for people with lives outside the game, then it's being given away" bullshit needs to stop. Just because something is obtainable by people with jobs, families, and other hobbies, doesn't mean it's been "Dumbed down." Instead of just giving everyone immediate access to the class, they could've made it slightly easier or less time consuming to get, so people with jobs, families, and who enjoy going outside now & then could have a chance at playing it too, but it would still feel like an accomplishment.
But you aren't understanding the problem. It's not the casuals that are upset, it is the hardcore fans. Because (some) casuals believe that anything in the game should be attainable on THEIR schedule, the developers make everything doable with "normal dude" effort levels. If casuals could obtain 99% of the items in a game, but that shiny 1% eluded them due to being "insanely hard" their game experience would somehow suffer, even if that 1% were a cosmetic item or the like. It's totally okay to make a game that dedicates itself to catering to the "normal" schedules/attention spans, but don't expect the hardcore crowd to stick around, the crowd that populates your conventions, buys your merchandise, promotes your game for free, streams your game live, creates fan sites and content, and generally keeps the game alive for decades after you've stopped marketing it. See Diablo 2. Hell, D2 is on the shelves at my LOCAL WALMART, and it came out 14 YEARS AGO. Testament to the power of the hardcore fanbase.
It's not about things NEEDING to be hard for the entire playerbase. It's about lack of hard content for hardcore fans to tackle, due to outcry from casuals that anything in the game should be attainable by people who don't have time to work for it. Again, totally fine. Plenty of app games run on this model. None have hardcore fanbases.
I think I'm understanding just fine. You're one of the people to which I was referring; one of those people who thinks that if things aren't exclusive, and super hard to obtain, they're being given away to those filthy, casualist pigs. (Heh.)
Believe me, I realize that the genetically superior, golden god hardcore fans are upset, but they seem to think that the dirty, ugly casuals are the root of all their problems. The handsome, chivalrous hardcore fans are railing against the disgusting, smelly casuals, because they seem to think they want everything handed to them. But they don't. When you think "Casual" (Fucking casuals) you think of someone who's trying to ruin your gaming experience. But they're really not--honest.
I fall somewhere between an unkempt, hideous casual and a glorious, delightful smelling hardcore. Frankly, I'm indifferent to whether or not I get, say, the flaming helmet in Halo. I honestly couldn't care less. No one is saying that the helmet ("Hardcore content") shouldn't exist, and no one's saying it should be easy to obtain, either. That said, I wouldn't object if instead of requiring 5 million kills, it was reduced to, say, 4 million. (I have ZERO idea if that's how it's obtained.) Still miles out of my league, and not at all being given away, but made slightly less time consuming, no doubt.
If a dev doesn't include content for the noble, admirable hardcore player base, it's not because the lobotomized, sterile casuals are lobbying against it. Your idea of a "Casual," that is, someone who is actively trying to ruin your gaming experience by making all content a total pushover, DOESN'T EXIST. There does, however, seem to be a rather large contingent of gorgeous, immaculate hardcore fans who don't want the fetid, unsightly casuals anywhere near their games. Especially the "Hardcore darling" games like Dark Souls. And by the way, I was into Dark Souls back when it was called Demon's Souls, and I'm not a flawless, honorable hardcore. /hipster.
As I keep trying to say, there's a WORLD of difference between something being given away, and a nerf that makes things a little more accessible. Not everything is black & white, thankfully. This "All or nothing," "Impossible, or a push over" attitude gets no one anywhere. Anyone who asks for the "Flaming helmet" to just be handed over to them is no better than the people who think it should only be obtainable by .0000000001% of all players.
As for that whole "Only hardcore fans go to conventions and buy merch" thing, I disagree. There are plenty of untouchable, leper casuals amidst the lordly, dignified hardcores. Even if they don't deserve to be. (Goddamn casuals.)
All of that was tongue in cheek. I feel like if I don't spell it out, I'll get reported.
I really don't think you understand his argument at all. It's not the people that are the problem; it's the content(or lack thereof). There is a segment of players that need a challenge, whether it be of player skill(I somewhat fall into this category, but only for certain games, and to a lesser extent than some) or just something to strive for through continual persistent effort(also known as "grinding." not a fan). If this content is made more accessible, then that challenge is gone, and if there is no new challenge to replace it, these sorts of players have no reason to remain.
It really doesn't matter whether casuals by your definition exist or not, because if the difficulty curve(or grinding curve? is that a thing?) is flattened, that means that the devs certainly think they exist, and as I said, it's the content that's important here. Well there are maybe some that just like lording their exclusive whats-its over those that can't get it, but we already have a name for that sort of people: assholes.
Me, I'm mostly a story gamer that enjoys an occasional challenge. For instance, I'm enjoying Dark Souls 2, but I doubt I'll play very far beyond NG. I don't see much point in playing the same content over again(even if some of the spawns are different) just because it's harder this time. I haven't done that since the first Devil May Cry game(which I did beat on the highest difficulty).
If a dev doesn't include content for the noble, admirable hardcore player base, it's not because the lobotomized, sterile casuals are lobbying against it. Your idea of a "Casual," that is, someone who is actively trying to ruin your gaming experience by making all content a total pushover, DOESN'T EXIST. There does, however, seem to be a rather large contingent of gorgeous, immaculate hardcore fans who don't want the fetid, unsightly casuals anywhere near their games. Especially the "Hardcore darling" games like Dark Souls. And by the way, I was into Dark Souls back when it was called Demon's Souls, and I'm not a flawless, honorable hardcore. /hipster.
Well there certainly are players who push for difficult content to be more accessible, go on any mmo forum and im sure you will see that attitude from some people. And to an extent i agree with them, they are paying for the content they should be allowed to see it.
But really once it has been decided that difficult to obtain content for whatever reason has been put in the game, making it easier to obtain strips away the sense of achievement people who worked hard to get it had, especially if its in a multiplayer game/mmo. Doubling drop rates as in the diablo example, is not a small change, its a very large one that massively devalues those items. This is not right and the people who worked for it have every right to be upset. Some people like challenges, some people like to be able to prove they are part of a small group of players who worked hard for something of note, an item, a mount an achievement a helmet, whatever it is.
Making it easier to get, (and they never make it only an insignificant amount easier because if it was an insignificant amount they wouldnt make the change in the first place) takes this from them and that is upsetting.
I dont see why, particularly in a multiplayer type game, some content is not allowed to be exclusive to players who put in more time and effort. As salus was saying this depth of content has to be there or you will get a game with no hardcore support. And for a lot of people a game with no depth is not a good game.
Its not that players dont want casuals in their game (im talking mainly from multiplayer standpoint) a bigger community is almost always better and to be encouraged, but equally there has to be something not everyone can achieve. And it feels like a betrayal when that content is included, and then later the challenge is stripped away from it.
That's the thing. It is elitism, but no one's ever told me why that's bad in a way that doesn't sound whiney. "Wahh, someone has something nice that they put a lot of time and effort in to get. I want it too without all that icky work. How dare those big meanies not share the reward they worked so hard for."
Okay, that little quote of yours? No one is saying that. No one ever says that. No one wants something to be nerfed so much that it feels like it's just being given to you. But at the same time, most people don't appreciate, as in your example, an entire class that a large majority of players (I'm guessing? Never played that game) will never get to play.
From what I've heard, Galaxies wasn't exactly the golden standard of game design, what with NGE and all. Most people are reasonable; most people like a good middle ground, and this whole "If it's not super hard, and nigh-unobtainable for people with lives outside the game, then it's being given away" bullshit needs to stop. Just because something is obtainable by people with jobs, families, and other hobbies, doesn't mean it's been "Dumbed down." Instead of just giving everyone immediate access to the class, they could've made it slightly easier or less time consuming to get, so people with jobs, families, and who enjoy going outside now & then could have a chance at playing it too, but it would still feel like an accomplishment.
Too much of anything is bad for you. If something is too easy, you'll get tired of it. If it's too hard, you'll get tired of it. As I said earlier, there is a world of difference between giving something away, and a small nerf to how hard or time consuming it is to get, and that seems to be completely lost on most elitists.
To preface, people need to quit hiding behind "no one is saying that" as a literal thing and should start asking themselves how they come off to the people they're arguing with. So let's take a look at how you're coming off:
Take a game, any game, and put in some non-essential element as a reward for some extreme effort. It's not impossible to attain as people do seem to do it so it's at least fair. But you aren't getting it for some reason (probably legitimate). Now, what do you do. For me, I may never get legendary items, or the highest level guns in Borderlands for example, but it doesn't hurt my enjoyment in playing the game, and I can beat the game well enough without it, so I'm happy to let the devoted have their prestige awards. You on the other hand feel that you're being kept from something if you don't get these things, but instead of trying to meet the challenge others have met, you want the bar lowered.
The reason the "spoiled kid" mindset come up is that yes, you are expecting the requirements of something designed as a prestige award to be ones you can meet, or rather, are willing to meet. Even when small and potentially reasonable, they hold a value of "work is for chumps, the reward is in complaining" I'll admit a level of jadedness on things because I am from the NES era where we still had fun without any expectation we'd actually beat the game we bought, so yeah, I'm probably never going to not hear entitlement from people that think the price of the game should garuntee them the rarest loot, or beating the secret ultra hard boss because I come from people that didn't make it past level 3 of Battletoads, and still had a great time without feeling cheated out of the rest of the game.
If you make something easier to get, if you make it more plentiful, if you make it common, it loses it's value. It is no longer special. And yes people are going to be angry, upset, or pissed off that what they worked so hard for, now everyone has for less effort.
In the same way, all of you who say you are working class, and should be able to do everything and get everything. Imagine for a second, some new guy comes in, you have been working at a company for lets say, ten years. They pay the new guy the same amount as you, they give him all the perks you have. But it has taken you ten years to earn that salary and those perks. Would you not be angry?
Why call it anything other than that? Like anything else, sometimes it's justified, a lot of the time it isn't. 90% of the time I'm in camp "eh, sure, add an easy mode - I want more people to enjoy the games I like" but there are exceptions where it would be legitimately damaging to the experience for everyone. Like Dark Souls, where you'd either have to cut out peer interactions entirely or create different tiers of multiplayer for people playing it on hard or on easy; where it would defeat the entire purpose of the game's core engagement on so many levels. Nor is Dark Souls really "hard" - it's not some bullet hell game that requires lightning fast reflexes and 100s of hours of memorization, or an RPG that requires advanced knowledge of mathematics and spreadsheets. Bosses move relatively slowly and telegraph all of their moves. One on one, the player is generally much stronger than any single minor enemy. All it requires is that you use your brain now and again, so "easy mode" would be essentially calling people too stupid come up with solutions to obvious problems like "well if I just charge in there I'm going to get surrounded and die so maybe I should lure them out one at a time with some arrows". If that kind of thinking is too advanced and too difficult for you, I'm not really sure it was safe for you to drive yourself to the game store to buy it in the first place. What if, when you were approaching it, a light turned yellow?!?!?! Do you speed up, or slow down?!?!?! You're going to have to make a judgement call that might hurt someone in real life, not just get your video game character killed. Dark Souls does indeed test to see if you're sapient. "The boss is rearing his head back like he does before he breathes fire, leaving himself vulnerable - do I take the opportunity and get a few hits in but risk not being able to move away in time, or do I move to safety until the attack is over and wait for another chance?" is not "hard" it's "I have functioning grey matter and the game occasionally requires me to use it". Aw did that skeleton you couldn't see from a straight forward angle knock you off the cliff to your death? SO HARD. SO CHEAP. Or, maybe you should look around the corner before running blithely over a precipice in a land filled with monsters who want to kill you.
...But yeah, if "easy mode" is literally just adding or decreasing enemy life for people who are less/more skilled at certain kind of acquired skill game, and not "I don't want to have to think on a second grade level, I just want to mash buttons and win, wah" I'm 100% behind it. Dark Souls isn't a power fantasy. It's a disempowerment fantasy. It's horror. You'd be destroying the core engagement and making it boring for the people who played on easy mode (who would literally have to have guard rails up on the cliffs in the aforementioned skeleton scenario - how patronizing is that?) but since they couldn't PVP or co-op with the regulars, they would be adding a bunch of people who didn't really even play Dark Souls. They wouldn't be adding fans (though I suppose they would be adding sales) of the series, they'd be adding fans of some other, completely different game - Donk Souls, or something.
On the other hand, I'm also against nerfing the insane/ultra hard modes just so that everyone can get all the trophies, even in learned skill-based games. Case in point, the Veteran modes of the original Modern Warfare and World At War were extremely punishing. They took true mechanics mastery, plus strategy, to beat. But from MW2 as the series became more popular they casualized even the hardest mode, so that the "Veteran" modes of BLops and Ghosts don't require much more than the same "hide behind a box until your NPC allies solve the problem for you" tactics that you could get away with on the easy modes of the earlier games. Yay! Everybody wins. ...Except that now, for really skilled players, it's boring as hell. If you can't do it the other modes are there for you. You can still beat and enjoy the game, just as it was meant to be played (unlike Donk Souls). Sorry. You'll have to practice to get that trophy. Oh no! Effort!
To preface, people need to quit hiding behind "no one is saying that" as a literal thing and should start asking themselves how they come off to the people they're arguing with. So let's take a look at how you're coming off:
Take a game, any game, and put in some non-essential element as a reward for some extreme effort. It's not impossible to attain as people do seem to do it so it's at least fair. But you aren't getting it for some reason (probably legitimate). Now, what do you do. For me, I may never get legendary items, or the highest level guns in Borderlands for example, but it doesn't hurt my enjoyment in playing the game, and I can beat the game well enough without it, so I'm happy to let the devoted have their prestige awards. You on the other hand feel that you're being kept from something if you don't get these things, but instead of trying to meet the challenge others have met, you want the bar lowered.
The reason the "spoiled kid" mindset come up is that yes, you are expecting the requirements of something designed as a prestige award to be ones you can meet, or rather, are willing to meet. Even when small and potentially reasonable, they hold a value of "work is for chumps, the reward is in complaining" I'll admit a level of jadedness on things because I am from the NES era where we still had fun without any expectation we'd actually beat the game we bought, so yeah, I'm probably never going to not hear entitlement from people that think the price of the game should garuntee them the rarest loot, or beating the secret ultra hard boss because I come from people that didn't make it past level 3 of Battletoads, and still had a great time without feeling cheated out of the rest of the game.
That's funny... I don't recall saying any of the things you're accusing me of saying. I do remember saying this:
BarbaricGoose said:
I fall somewhere between an unkempt, hideous casual and a glorious, delightful smelling hardcore. Frankly, I'm indifferent to whether or not I get, say, the flaming helmet in Halo. I honestly couldn't care less. No one is saying that the helmet ("Hardcore content") shouldn't exist, and no one's saying it should be easy to obtain, either. That said, I wouldn't object if instead of requiring 5 million kills, it was reduced to, say, 4 million. (I have ZERO idea if that's how it's obtained.) Still miles out of my league, and not at all being given away, but made slightly less time consuming, no doubt.
Too much of anything is bad for you. If something is too easy, you'll get tired of it. If it's too hard, you'll get tired of it. As I said earlier, there is a world of difference between giving something away, and a small nerf to how hard or time consuming it is to get, and that seems to be completely lost on most elitists.
Truly, I have zero idea how you got "I want the prestige items to be given to me," when my post speaks to complete indifference about them. But yeah, do label me as a spoiled kid--that's great.
As for "No one is saying that," I think instead, people should just stop making up an imaginary group of people that say absurdly stupid things, so then people like me wouldn't have to say things like, "No says that."
I really don't think you understand his argument at all. It's not the people that are the problem; it's the content(or lack thereof). There is a segment of players that need a challenge, whether it be of player skill(I somewhat fall into this category, but only for certain games, and to a lesser extent than some) or just something to strive for through continual persistent effort(also known as "grinding." not a fan). If this content is made more accessible, then that challenge is gone, and if there is no new challenge to replace it, these sorts of players have no reason to remain.
I realize the players are not the problem. He seemed to think they were, and he was blaming those filthy goddamn casuals for all the problems he has with the games. So.... I agree with you, to a point.
I just think players tend to overreact when hard content is made even slightly easier. Like, fly off the handle and go into nerd rage mode overreact. I really can't stress enough that I don't want the items to be given away any more than anyone else (Something that people seem to continue to gloss over in my posts), but small nerfs don't bother me, and they really shouldn't bother anyone else. The prestige shit should still be hard to obtain, but still obtainable by people with the dedication, even if they don't have as much time.
Scars Unseen said:
It really doesn't matter whether casuals by your definition exist or not, because if the difficulty curve(or grinding curve? is that a thing?) is flattened, that means that the devs certainly think they exist, and as I said, it's the content that's important here. Well there are maybe some that just like lording their exclusive whats-its over those that can't get it, but we already have a name for that sort of people: assholes.
"Casuals" are a thing, just not Salus' definition of them. That is, someone who wants everything to be nerfed so much it's just handed to them. Those kinda people wouldn't even touch an MMO, or something like Diablo. I mean, a lot publishers and game devs are, well, stupid. They force multiplayer into everything, and they cater to groups that don't actually exist. This isn't anyone's fault but theirs.
Maybe I got too caught up in the casual/hardcore gag to get my point across clearly. It was 2 AM, gimme a break.
But like I said in my last post, or... second to last.. or third to last counting this one:
BarbaricGoose said:
If a dev doesn't include content for the noble, admirable hardcore player base, it's not because the lobotomized, sterile casuals are lobbying against it. Your idea of a "Casual," that is, someone who is actively trying to ruin your gaming experience by making all content a total pushover, DOESN'T EXIST.
In like 99% of the times, being made more accessible means "we have taken out content that made the game as good as it is". I don't want to lose the thing I enjoy just so that you or someone else can feel special for beating the watered down version of the game.
Tell me the last game that was made more accessible, yet didn't alienate the old player base by removing or toning down some of the defining features of the series?
The only thing that comes to my mind is the white tanooki suit in Mario.
As for making legendary and other hard to get items easier to obtain, are you really asking that?
Are you asking why it's bad that special, ultra rare items aren't rare? That everyone can get THE items of the game? No, not everyone is a winner, get over it. If you aren't good enough and don't invest enough time, you won't get the Legendary Sword of Kul'nah +15. You did not deserve it therefore you won't get it.
Rare, legendary items have their value because they are rare legendary items. Making them plentiful means they lose their value.
EDIT:
To make it clear. I was talking in general.
As far aS Diablo 3 goes, the drop rates are fucked up because Blizzard went full retard thanks to the real money auction house. They not only made the drop rate ridiculously low "to compensate for the ability to buy the item with real money", but they also made a limiter on how many legendary items are allowed to drop per hour on your server so even if you farm like there is no tomorrow, you're not guaranteed to get the item because some gold farmer reached the drop limit.
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