**Terror in Oslo** UPDATE: Anders Breivik gets 8 weeks of custody

[Jonluw]

Basically, when you're saying Norway should let up on the gun control, you might as well be saying "Look at Finland. You should emulate them." The notion that guns make a country safer just doesn't make sense.

I'm Finnish, and I believe the most common murder weapon in Finland is a knife. http://www.finnresearch.fi/3_oksanen_et_al_2010.pdf

In my country the classic scenario seems to be that two or more middle-aged men get drunk, get into an argument, and stab each other. I fully support gun control, but guns aren't that big a problem here compared to drunks flailing around with kitchen utensils.

Indeed, I noticed the percentage of homicides performed with gun in Finland was surprisingly low just now.
Far far lower than that of the US.

However, Finland's per capita homicide by gun is still almost as high as Norway's overall per capita homicide statistic.

The point that I was trying to get across was just that there is no reason to change the laws of Norway in an attempt to try to lower homicide-rates. Particularly if it's not sure whether the changes you're planning to make will actually lower crime or not.

That, and I just feel bad imagining a society where everybody walks around with guns. That would be a cold and tense society. Pretty much everyone's a bit more on their toes when they're carrying a tool that can kill someone.

And there is absolutely no need to legalize fully automatic weapons. That's just silly.

 

[Kair]

Q: When is a religious fundamentalist mass murderer just a madman?
A: When he's a white christian fundamentalist.

The sheep started crying terrorism right away, trying to unify the herd through religion and nationalism.

Then after some time, it was known that the perpetrator was a white christian nationalist nutbag, just like the sheep.

As if it was only white Christian nationalists crying Islamic terrorism.

I was not crying terrorism. But neither am I a part of the herd.

Nationalism, religion, xenophobia and prejudice are all symptoms of the same mental illness. There are many more symptoms.

I didn't say you were. That still does not mean that you're not implicitly blaming only some of those that are guilty.

And lol, no they are not a mental illness even if you dislike them or even if there is good reason to dislike them.

I diagnose them with a mental illness because of the consequences brought on by their mindset, not because of my personal taste or (dis)affection. Just like Schizophrenia is an illness because of its negative consequences, the unenlightened mind is also an illness because of the negative consequences. Though it is an extremely common mental illness as opposed to Schizophrenia.

Many people will not call it an illness, just like in a hypothetical world where the vast majority of people had Multiple Personality Disorder, MPD would not be called an illness.

 

[DracoSuave]

How's that gun control working for you Norway? I thought banning guns took them out of the hands of criminals and the insane.

So enlighten me, how many dies in US compared to Norway yearly?

This picture is one of my favourites:
[HEADING=3]Per capita intentional homicide.[/HEADING]
[sub]Deeper blue = higher homicide rate.[/sub]

Yeah, clearly gun control isn't working out for us at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

does not account for variables (which are many) or the 2-4 million times a year a gun has prevented a crime or murder.

so that map really has little scientific basis about gun control. since about half of us violent crime isnt gun related.

Conversely, guns preventing crime hasn't exactly done much to prevent the US from having as high a homicide rate.

Just think, if guns weren't preventing crime, then guns would be causing SO MUCH CRIME it'd be like Russia.

 

[Warforger]

Yeah, clearly gun control isn't working out for us at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

That's not necessarily fair. You're taking one chart then assuming it's because of the availability of guns that the homicide rate is high. That does not take into account the spillage of violence from Mexico, does not take into account the booming drug trade, it does not take into account how many of those were gun kills and it does not take into account how many of those were legal guns.

The best argument though is that some people who can legally buy guns, go to gun shops and sales, buy guns and then sell it to drug gangs.

On a side note, when the Soviet Union fell whole warehouses of AK-47's were leftover, the owners sold them to the blackmarket and now they're so plentiful that they cost less then a chicken. However no one seemed to care, they were more worried about the nuclear weapons, and yet the AK-47's have killed far more people and caused far more problems then some weapons no one will use. So it's arguruable no one seems to go after the root of the problem.

 

[Jonluw]

Yeah, clearly gun control isn't working out for us at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

That's not necessarily fair. You're taking one chart then assuming it's because of the availability of guns that the homicide rate is high. That does not take into account the spillage of violence from Mexico, does not take into account the booming drug trade, it does not take into account how many of those were gun kills and it does not take into account how many of those were legal guns.

The best argument though is that some people who can legally buy guns, go to gun shops and sales, buy guns and then sell it to drug gangs.

On a side note, when the Soviet Union fell whole warehouses of AK-47's were leftover, the owners sold them to the blackmarket and now they're so plentiful that they cost less then a chicken. However no one seemed to care, they were more worried about the nuclear weapons, and yet the AK-47's have killed far more people and caused far more problems then some weapons no one will use. So it's arguruable no one seems to go after the root of the problem.

Well, one point is that guns being legal makes it a hell of a lot easier to get a hold of illegal guns too.

But, once again: I'm not making the assumption that the availability of guns is responsible for the high homicide rate.
What I'm saying is that Norway has a magnificently low homicide rate, despite the strict gun-control, which must mean that having gun control is not a recipe for disaster like certain gun advocates would have you believe.
What I did in the quoted post was sarcastically state that clearly gun control left Norway with an incredibly high homicide rate.
I didn't touch on why other countries might have such high homicide rates.

But this is neither the time nor the place to be delving into a discussion on gun control. Let's leave that for some other time.
You can always just read the two other posts I made further up on this page too.

I'm just hoping jegsimmons doesn't come with a lengthy debate-point now, because I'm really not in the mood to spend my time discussing gun control.

 

[Undercover]

The CBC managed an interview with one of the survivors just before he went into surgery. Check out the story & video here.

This guy is going to be a legend for taking a BULLET IN THE EFFING SHOULDER from point blank range and not moving or crying out to convince the shooter he was dead.

 

[Jonluw]

The CBC managed an interview with one of the survivors just before he went into surgery. Check out the story & video here. [http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/07/23/norway-attack.html]

This guy is going to be a legend for taking a BULLET IN THE EFFING SHOULDER from point blank range and not moving or crying out to convince the shooter he was dead.

The link was broken.
Fixed it for you.

As for the story: That's just surreal.
It's amazing that the guy managed to convince the shooter that he was dead, but I just have to wonder: Why did the gunman shoot him in the shoulder to see if he was dead, when he could have just as easily placed it in the head or heart and made sure that he was dead?
He must have wanted him to suffer more in the case that he was alive. That's the only explanation I can see.

 

[Erlec]

In norway, trying to take this all in. It's hard and very unrelenting. Not only the bombing but the acts of the man who shot so many humans at the prime of their lives. Current deathnumbers (21:07 23.07.2011) are 92, 85 of them on the island.

Being killed like that is horrible enough but the wrost part is this; He wore a policeman's uniform(with id and everything), told people to gather up since had to inform the kids about the bombing and after a crowd gathered around him, he started shooting.

Even worse is later when he went around saying he was the police (police uniform) and it was over. People stood up relived that it was finnaly over, that the nightmare was gone. He shot them dead. One person's story was that he was among thirty who stood up and after he started shooting again, there was only five of them left.

People who had hidden themselves had to watch their friends die, and watch them slowly bleeding, wailing and choking. They couldn't help their friends in fear that they would be found and shot.

This is so shocking. There really are no words on how sad this is. As a norwegian I don't feel anger at the man, nor rage of whatever political situation could bring this situation forth. I'm only sad. Sad. The only thing I can do here is to write about it and put the flag on halfmast.

The 2nd WW generation had 9th of april (the day nazi germany invaded). We have now 22th of july. I've been so lucky that I have not lost any persons I know (so far, might be someone I went with school there. Names aren't out yet) Still it's a national mourning day and I feel with each and everyone who has lost someone that day.

 

[WaderiAAA]

My sister was in Oslo not far from where the bomb went off and had to evacuate.

All regular programs have been cut. Heck, TV Norge shows NRK's news even though it is a different company.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Wait...WHAT?!

Okie Dokie Lokie! The guy behind all this mess have been identified as a conservative christian, and extreme right-winged (So much for all the islam fingerpointing). He has also pointed out in debates on the internet how he is against multiculturalism and Islam. I think it's easy to see his motivations now.

.......The jumped up lunatic mother!@#$er, what the hell did he think this would accomplish? What kind of excuse does he have for himself?

I mean...It's just sickening...Ugh...

 

[WaderiAAA]

I like how everyone thought it was a muslim, that's not racist at all...

Now it turns out it was an extremist of norwegian origin and it's no longer terrorism, but a massacre...


Regardless of the choice of words this is a horrible situation, but im glad that the prime minister said that they will not compromise with their ideals despite of this catastrophe.

To be fair, both Al-Quaida and Answar Al-Islam jumped in afterwards and said they were responsible. Turned out they were both lying though.

Also, the guy is a right-wing extremist, so it is still terror. The definition of terror is the intention to spread fear, which clearly is the purpose of the attacks.

 

[GeneWard]

Just pray when they find these people that they have some fucking fun with them first and put it on TV. People like this don't need killing, they need to be publicly mocked, then the families of victims need to be let loose upon him with fucking razors.

 

[e033x]

Just pray when they find these people that they have some fucking fun with them first and put it on TV. People like this don't need killing, they need to be publicly mocked, then the families of victims need to be let loose upon him with fucking razors.

No amount of public mockery and torture will ever be a sufficient punishment for one who wholeheartedly believes he is doing the right thing. I might exaggerate because I'm fucking bitter, but what this guy deserves is oblivion. To be isolated from humans, his name wiped from active memory. I don't mean that we should forget what happened, quite the opposite! What happened, and why, and mostly those who were killed must be remembered, but the shooter himself deserves oblivion, not martyrdom.

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

Just pray when they find these people that they have some fucking fun with them first and put it on TV. People like this don't need killing, they need to be publicly mocked, then the families of victims need to be let loose upon him with fucking razors.

That's sick man, you need help.

 

[Undercover]

The link was broken.
Fixed it for you.

Thanks.

As for the story: That's just surreal.
It's amazing that the guy managed to convince the shooter that he was dead, but I just have to wonder: Why did the gunman shoot him in the shoulder to see if he was dead, when he could have just as easily placed it in the head or heart and made sure that he was dead?
He must have wanted him to suffer more in the case that he was alive. That's the only explanation I can see.

I agree. There's really no other feasible (I almost typed rational, but there's nothing rational about any of this) explanation other than the shooter wanted to watch someone suffer. How much self control does it take to be shot in the shoulder from 3-6 feet away and not move or scream? Talk about will to live...

 

[WaderiAAA]

Should a person who takes other persons right to live, self have the right to live?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: The constitution in Norway is build on Christian and humanist values. One of those values is though shall not kill. A human life is considered sacet and should not be sacrificed unnecessarily. Another argument is that it has happened that new evidence have proved someone innocent after they have served their time. They then get a lot of money to live the rest of their life to the fullest. Consider if that person was already dead when his innocent was proved. Then the tradgedy is even worse. Also, statistically crime rates grow when the laws get stricter. For instance, strict rules on smuggling lead to high risk, meaning the drug prices rise and suddenly the illegal drug sales are booming.

 

[WaderiAAA]

How's that gun control working for you Norway? I thought banning guns took them out of the hands of criminals and the insane.

If you are making a point that gun control isn't working. I once saw a statistic that of the people that were shot to death in the USA, there were more cases of accidental murders than of murders in self-defence. It also said that the chance that someone would commit suicide was six times higher if there was a gun in the house.

Sure, there will always be some cases when someone manages to get guns, but they are fewer when you have a strict gun control.

 

[Singularly Datarific]

It's a shame we consider ourselves too barbaric to remove his arms and force him to walk the streets to be spat on.
/rage


My writing skills fail me, I can't properly express how much I hate him. I hate him more than any suicide bomber or any regular madman.
And btw, don't anyone dare blame this on religion. Nobody deserves to be affiliated with this scumbag.

 

[Ninjasander]

Here's a propaganda video made by Anders Behring, the shooter.


The man was insane.