Texas wants to secede from the Union?
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But that is not liberty. That is the definition of tyranny. This country was founded by secessionists who believed a people have the right to choose their own way. A Briton could have justified war with the colonies the same way, and many did.ElephantGuts said:
The government must always rule by consent of the people. When the people withdraw their consent, the government must withdraw. If the government will not, the people must rise and crush it. It's all in the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution.
Texas is (mostly) crazy anyway.
So they do secede? Good for them, maybe they can run around and be crazy by themselves. No real loss to me.
So they don't secede? Ah well, they (sort of) tried. B for effort. Maybe they can help us out of this recession if they're so confident about themselves.
So they do secede? Good for them, maybe they can run around and be crazy by themselves. No real loss to me.
So they don't secede? Ah well, they (sort of) tried. B for effort. Maybe they can help us out of this recession if they're so confident about themselves.
Rick Perry is an ineffectual politician, I hope Kay Baily Hutchinson beats him good in the election. The man has accomplished nothing, even for a Texas governor (which says alot)and the fact that he's been in the position for so long astounds me. Anyway, Texas could poissibly succeed if we wanted to but I don't quite think it would be the best idea.
This is the problem: everyone wants lower taxes all the time, and our politicians get them, putting us deeper in debt. Some people need to realize that taxes need to go up for a while so that we can get ourselves stable again. Once that's done, find a good balancing point and stick to it.orannis62 said:
Exactly, but when I try explaining this, most people go "Oh, but it's my money, I worked for it!" They then tend to go on about how they want the government to do something for them, seeming to think that the government can work without money. I don't get it.scotth266 said:
I cant believe how misinformed some people are about Texas. *shakes head*
1. Perry isnt in any danger of getting impeached. Sure he is going to (hopefully) lose to Hutchinson in the next election but until then he isnt going anywhere.
2. Actually I think I saw on one news cast, that Texas is the only state in the Union that has the legal right to succeed. I dont know where they got that but I think I remember something about a clause in the agreement where Texas joined the Union that said we could leave when we wanted but they may have changed that after the Civil War. Doesnt really matter, if we really did want to leave we just would.
3. Texas isnt wierd (except Austin) its you lot that all wierd. ^_^
4. Texas COULD absolutely support itself if it broke off, though it would take a while for the economy to adjust to suddenly being self-sufficient. It could be done, besides we have oil.
5. Texas probably wont succeed. Yeah its sad but true. For those of you who havnt been keeping track, which by the looks of it is everyone here, every so often some person or group here (in Texas) says something about succeeding, of course this time it was the governor so they go even more nuts than usual.
As wierd as the rest of America is, we Texans have grown rather fond of you guys...yes even you California...As long as some outrageously drastic measure isnt taken to rob Texas of its heterosexual only marriage or death penalty we arent really planning on leaving.
1. Perry isnt in any danger of getting impeached. Sure he is going to (hopefully) lose to Hutchinson in the next election but until then he isnt going anywhere.
2. Actually I think I saw on one news cast, that Texas is the only state in the Union that has the legal right to succeed. I dont know where they got that but I think I remember something about a clause in the agreement where Texas joined the Union that said we could leave when we wanted but they may have changed that after the Civil War. Doesnt really matter, if we really did want to leave we just would.
3. Texas isnt wierd (except Austin) its you lot that all wierd. ^_^
4. Texas COULD absolutely support itself if it broke off, though it would take a while for the economy to adjust to suddenly being self-sufficient. It could be done, besides we have oil.
5. Texas probably wont succeed. Yeah its sad but true. For those of you who havnt been keeping track, which by the looks of it is everyone here, every so often some person or group here (in Texas) says something about succeeding, of course this time it was the governor so they go even more nuts than usual.
As wierd as the rest of America is, we Texans have grown rather fond of you guys...yes even you California...As long as some outrageously drastic measure isnt taken to rob Texas of its heterosexual only marriage or death penalty we arent really planning on leaving.
True, but Texas is not asking the government to withdraw; they're not asking anything. They have no valid claim. What's their problem, "taxes are high?" Comparing it to the 13 colonies rebelling against Britain, the colonies were taxed heavily and had no representation. And they were just a bunch of colonies. Texas is as important a part of the USA as anyone else.Rooster Cogburn said:
If Texas really has a problem with the government, they need to go through the proper diplomatic channels and peacefully work to change the situation, not just start swilling alcohol and waving their guns in the air. If they had a valid claim in the first place and if the US government refused to change anything, then they would be right in seceding. But even then, they would need to actually be able to, an ability they gain through popular support. With the 13 colonies, most of the people there were willing to break from Britain, and as history proved they were capable of doing so. But Texas isn't going anywhere as long as there are still 49 other states ready to do whatever they need to preserve the Union. And this fact proves that Texas has no valid claim: If Texas is treated the same as every other state, and only they have a problem with it, maybe it's them?
And even if they were right to secede, they simply couldn't. It's clear that in the event of a secession the mother country will move to put down the rebellion and preserve their property. Texas has no chance of standing up to the USA by its self, so there's no chance that Texas actually will successfully secede. It might not be fair, but that's how the world works. The stronger force wins.
Your objection rests on the idea that the right of Texans (or anyone) to decide their own government is subject to the discretion of foreign men. I call this tyranny and reject it. It is for no one but Texans to decide what treatment they will endure. Once again, your arguments could be used to deny freedom to the United States of America in 1776, and were.ElephantGuts said:
In practice, Texas should try to resolve its differences through diplomacy and solidarity. Because doing so is good policy. But liberty has no proper channels. If, in our hypothetical, Texans seceded, they would indeed not be asking anything. Nor should they. A free man does not ask permission to be so. He does not stand before a king or parliament to prove he needs liberty, he simply exercises it at will. Otherwise you cannot call it so. A point was reached when Jefferson could not be so humiliated to ask his King another time, and abandoning proper channels, he took his freedom.
What mortal can claim the right to decide which of us deserves to be master of his own fate? The right of a people to decide their own government is inalienable, and there is no higher authority but God. I did think we were assuming popular support in this case, as my entire premise is the will of the people.
If that is the attitude of the United States government, then it has become contrary to its original purpose. It should be reformed, changed, or abolished. While true that Texas cannot stand alone against the imperialist might of the federal government, God bless men who die fighting for their freedom. May I always find myself in their ranks.
For a free man, there is only liberty or death.
He pushed it through, yeah. And a lot of Texans are pretty pissed off right now. The entire thing has gone to court, so chances are, he'll be gone and it will be struck before it even has a chance to allow anyone to take anyone's land.L33tsauce_Marty said:
When I said, "about to be impeached," I meant he's riding the thin edge of Texan patience. I can see Texas losing it and sending him packing if he keeps acting like a total idiot. Which I can see happening, because he's been slowly moving towards the firing line since his first year.
@ ElephantGuts:
Man, don't fall for Rooster Cogburn's flame bait. He's from Florida - one of the states with the worst education systems in the country that always blames Florida's problems on everyone else.
NeutralDrow said:
Alaska could also if it kicked out the hippies who would protest using the natural resources.
For a big chunk of mostly ice and snow, it's got some goodies.
NeutralDrow said:
HAH France would never nuke anyone! (imo)
Now the UK, they've got the fight in them. Plus, India and the Pakistanis would probably shove as many missiles down each other's throats if nobody was looking.
I think the bigger threat from the Chinese is all of their up-and-coming nationalist hackers. Remember about a year ago they crashed the White House webpage, along with the Navy's?-
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/07/china.hackers/index.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/29/2009-03-29_snooping_dragon_chinese_hackers_crack_co.html
That's not fair. I really believe what I say. Don't just diffuse discussion, tell me why I am wrong.McClaud said:
EDIT: For example, I have stated I believe my ideas to be those of the men that declared independence from Britain and established the United States of America. You could explain why they were wrong, or why I am wrong to judge that I share their values. But it doesn't prove me wrong simply to undermine discussion by saying that no one from my home state can contribute anything of value.
Economically, Texas probably could become a new country. It's vast resources of agriculture, energy, and trade, and not to mention the fact that metro-hubs like Houston and Dallas cater to a huge client base of international business, lay huge foundations in the fact if it ever happens, good chance Texas could pull it off.
I hope Rick Perry is just some crazy bastard who Texans accidently voted into office but this is seriously one of the things I dislike about Texas. It seems like a lot of them refer to themselves as Texans first and American second. Haven't we already fought a war on this.
Oh and we have already fought a war over the issue of states rights which seems to have popped up in this topic. It was one of the main reasons for the American Civil War and as a result Federal government came out on top hence why states cannot pass laws in direct violation of federal laws.
Oh and we have already fought a war over the issue of states rights which seems to have popped up in this topic. It was one of the main reasons for the American Civil War and as a result Federal government came out on top hence why states cannot pass laws in direct violation of federal laws.
Your entire argument is that Texas as a whole seeks secession. If you'd actually read what Texans and other people who know Texans are saying, they are not seeking secession from the Union. Most of them joke about it. While most of them know they could survive without the rest of the US, they also know that a large portion of their state funding is created out of Federal pork barrel budget inclusions. They also feel a very strong allegiance to the US military since a large portion of their economy revolves around companies like Raytheon, Boeing, and other Federally contracted corporations. Texas does not feel oppressed - they feel liberated by taking advantage of their connections to the Federal government. Chances are if one group tried to force a Texas succession, a majority of Texans would allow the US government to come in and remove these people.Rooster Cogburn said:
The Texan Secessionist Party wants Texas to suceded purely based on an issue that does not necessarily include Federal government issues. One of their primary goals is to abolish all forms of government, including the Texas legislature, that all men have their own land are a country unto themselves.
Perry recently signed a bill to allow oil companies in Texas to legally declare domain on other people's property if there is oil present. The Texas Secession Party flared up angrily, since it steps on one of their fundamental beliefs. So Perry is now pandering to them in the hopes of buying off a few more votes during the upcoming election and staving off political opponents who want to bury him before that.
Now, had you read anything said by anyone else in the thread and paid attention to history lessons, and not stuck to trolling a few people, there wouldn't be a large argument going on. You could have ignored the "we'll just steamroll them" comments, but you yourself claimed you'd also fight on the side of secession, which isn't going to happen anytime soon.