When a person going on a DMCA takedown strike rampage is in anyway comparable to someone who stirs up hatred towards transexuals, get back to me. You'll have made a valid point then, but not until then.NiGHTSJOD said:
The Alex Mauer Situation
- Thread starter Neverhoodian
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You mean, like when the person starts sending people death threats?erttheking said:
In which case, knock knock.
Oh yeah, that's really comparable to having a mass following who honestly believes transphobic bullshit and contributes to a culture where they have to be afraid for their lives.The Lunatic said:
Get back to me when you have something that isn't a poorly constructed "gotcha" moment, the only thing people seem to care about when talking to me nowadays.
What on earth are you even talking about?erttheking said:
This person is literally threatening to murder people, and you're saying that a bunch of people on the internet saying mean things about people who identify as trans is worse?
There's moving the goal posts, and then there's pretending they aren't even there any more.
The fact that you simplify spreading down fear and misinformation about trans people that contributes to a culture where they fear for their lives make me question if you give a damn about them. I guess scientists publishing bogus papers back in the 1800s "proving" that Blacks were inferior to whites were just "saying mean things." Words have a lot of influence in the world, no use of condescending language is going to change that. Tell me something, the people who have received these death threats, do they feel threatened for their lives? I haven't seen anything about that. This is vile, yet I don't actually see anything about these people actually thinking their lives are in danger. Whereas trans people do. But you don't fucking care. You care more about getting me in a "aha, gotcha," moment, because scoring points is the main priority.The Lunatic said:
In other news, I think Charles Coughlin (Very popular depression era radio host. Also a massive anti-Semite) was more scary, more of a threat and more deserving of hatred than a random twat on Youtube. I hate both of them, but I like to keep things in perspective.
EDIT: I'm sorry, I have to ask. What is the end game here? What are you trying to prove?
I'm pretty sure this didn't come out of nowhere and that they would've consulted a doctor before now.inu-kun said:
Because the circumstances are different. We can't respond to anything with a catch all solution. It's a bit like claiming that a man who robbed a bakery's cash register because he wanted cash and one who stole a pastry because he was starving are both thieves and should be punished equally.
Given you never specified which "Mass following" You're talking about, I'm going to assume it's the person (Among others) that this insane person threatened to kill.erttheking said:
So, SidAlpha has been threatened with death, by this insane person. Now, SidAlpha's "Mass Following" of... 50,000 or so people that have pressed a button on a youtube page are no doubt all frothing maniacs eager to murder people who identify as trans at any given moment!... Surely, you have some proof of this, yes?
In terms of "Well, they don't -feel- threatened, so, it's not a threat". Do you have any proof of this? They felt threatened enough to report it to the police. I consider that suitable threatened myself.
It seems to me like you're just excusing the awful things this person has done because apparently mean people on the internet are the real villains here!
Also, for what it's worth, there's some doubt as to if this insane person even identifies as trans. They have a history of claiming to just be doing it for attention. They make no effort in physical appearance to appear as the gender they claim to be. And generally just appear to be a mentally troubled provoker. It seems to me that they're the ones out to insult and demean people who identify that way.
Whilst, far be it for me to gatekeep such things, there is a point where one has to point out when somebody is clearly just taking the piss.
What the fuck are you talking about? We were obviously talking about Milo! That's what I was talking about when I replied to Night. You did read that post right? You weren't in such a hurry to get me in a "aha, gotcha," moment that you looked without jumping, right?The Lunatic said:
See above
Do you actually talk to trans people? Of course you do, here. Let me rephrase that. Do you listen to them? They're not afraid of any one particularly person, they're afraid of a culture in general that will attack them for who they are, and Milo is feeding the fire on that. Doesn't help that shock at realizing a person is trans during sex is an acceptable defense for murder in most of the USA.
I never excused anything. Why do people always have to lie about what I say in order to make a point? Do they have so little faith in their own arguments?
As horrible and unsupported (Unless you have evidence, in which case you should've provided it) as your claims that this person really isn't trans is...it doesn't relate to the topic. At all. I'm talking about the way trans people feel as a whole. Not the way she feels. (Oh, and is ok to dismiss people who claim to be LGBT? I mean I always believed that you were gay, I never dreamed of denying that, but I thought that that was just basic standards. Apparently not, I must've been going above and beyond the call of being civil.)
Milo has a massive following?erttheking said:
... Since when? As far as I'm aware, most people abandoned him after that whole underage thing. Though, that instance it was interesting to see how happy people were to hear he'd been abused as a child, on both sides of the spectrum. so, I guess Night was kinda right in the case.
I'm part of Several furry groups. We attract all sorts of misfits. The ones that don't spend the majority of their days on Tumblr and reddit seem pretty reasonable and well-adjusted. I kinda think that the Trans-community itself perpetuates that fear far more than it actually exists, and those I've spoken to generally regard the trans community itself as extremely toxic.erttheking said:
And, yeah, that'd be rape. You'd be having sex with somebody whilst withholding information that affects consent. Rape is usually a justification for self defense.
You certainly seem to be excusing death threats. There's no excuse for that, and I don't believe Milo ever threatened to murder anyone, so, that definitely puts him above this piece of shit.erttheking said:
People on this forum, and I think you yourself have cited an Article from Milo where he jokes about not being gay as proof that he's "Just pretending", so, let's not pretend.erttheking said:
This person has posted on Twitter about how they're not actually trans, on multiple occasions. Now, as I said, I'm not the one saying they're not. It's not my place to say. But, I think it's pretty self evident that they're just taking the piss.
I mean, they don't even shave. Their idea of appearing as a woman is drawing two red circles on their cheeks, lipstick and a bushy beard.
They've since deleted all their twitter stuff, so, you'll forgive me for not obsessively screen-capping everything I see.
So you're telling me he got a net worth of a few million dollars by not having a significant following?The Lunatic said:
The only thing I got out of that was "The views of Trans people on Tumblr don't count," (because apparently every last one isn't well adjusted) and that apparently you know better than the trans community. You know, I know a trans person (in actual real life, I didn't just run into one on the internet) and she's gone through a lot of crap. In Massachusetts. The state that's actually way ahead of the curve on LGBT rights in America. So pardon me if I the word of a person I've met in the flesh and blood over a couple of people you met online and who don't seem to be on the level with the majority of trans people.
So you're telling me that four men were justified in beating a teen to death when they discovered she had male genitals after they corned her well after the fact and forced her to expose her genitals? Two of which didn't even have sex with her, they were just along for the ride? And they beat her, left her on the couch, went to go get tools from their truck, and continued to beat her? Before hogtying her body, throwing it in the truck, and burying it before proceeding to not call the police? Because that's the case that made legislation be passed to make that not an acceptable defense in California, the only state where that defense doesn't fly. Let's also ignore that the people in question were having sex with someone who didn't meet Californa's age of consent laws. Oh, and the one other case on record of this defense being pulled showed no indication of sex taking place. He just did it because he realized a trans woman was flirting with him and his friends mocked him for it. Neither of these cases sound like self defense. Lunatic, you really shouldn't be defending something that is basically a spin off of the "gay panic" defense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense#United_States_of_America
Well I'm not, so get that idea out of your head. I'm pretty sure the trans people Milo has feel less safe would disagree with you on that one, considering they seem to be more afraid for their lives than these people (who again, do not seem to believe that Alex will actually hurt them, but pointing that out in your book seems to mean I'm excusing death threats, which I'm fucking not) but then again you dismiss everything he says and does as "just saying mean things." Again, technically scientists publishing papers on the inferiority of Black people in the 1800s is just saying mean things, but words have impact and you dismissively brushing it off doesn't change that.
What, the article where he said he was being gay to piss off his parents? My apologies, I do this crazy thing call taking people at their word. It took my some time to realize I was dealing with an utter **** who seems more interested in pissing people off and causing harm than doing anything else. I admit I was wrong there. But here's the thing. I actually had a source. You don't. Oh, you have sources but they don't exist anymore. And no one has archived them? The internet, obsessed with archiving everything to do with anything remotely SJW has no archives? Yeah...buddy, you regularly misrepresent what I say when the source is right in front of you. You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it. But then again, as I said before, this little tangent right here? Doesn't fucking matter in the slightest. If Alex turns out to not be trans, not a single thing has changed. Trans people still have to go through a lot of shit, Milo was fueling a culture where trans people don't feel safe, nothing has changed. Still no idea why you went on this tangent, it has nothing to do with anything and it doesn't prove anything.
Leave the author's name out of a quote, will ya? I'm gonna DMCA the hell out of this post!Smithnikov said:
Anyway, here's Kyle Orland of Ars Technica (and the founder of the secret "GameJournoPros" network, for all you games journalism aficionados) gingerly tiptoeing around that minor "deranged individual sends death threats to several people in the games industry that we're always wanting to make a safe space" detail of this story: http://archive.is/Yup5T
To be fair, the original context for this was in regards to this insane person. So, I mean... Unless you can prove a "Mass following" attacked that person specifically, I think that argument has run its course, no matter how many times you move to goal posts to talk about "generality".erttheking said:
To be fair, if you're on tumblr, you're basically out there to make your entire existence some massive cry for attention and do so by getting offended at every minor situation and excusing death threats and that sorta thing. So, yeah, it's kinda not worth considering.erttheking said:
As for the rest of your argument, it seems to boil down to "Well, I -know- better than you do!", as opposed to providing any sort of empirical evidence of this. So, I mean, forgive me if I'm not compelled. It's fair to say there's issues people who identify as transgendered face, but, the chances of them running into a Milo supporter in the flesh and this person being the source of their ills is... Unlikely, purely from a mathematical point of view.
It's not my place to say what's justified for a rape victim to do. I've never been in such a horrible situation myself. I can't really say. I'm not qualified, and I won't pretend to be. Rape is a serious crime which affects peoples minds far more than their physical bodies.erttheking said:
Regardless, you're mentioning one specific case, and not speaking in general terms. Which is what you said you were doing. So, it turns out, you're not actually doing that.
If you want to talk generalities, then, no, withholding information that affects consent is never acceptable, regardless of your orientation, identity or whatever else. It is rape, pure and simple.
Citation needed. You can't prove these people feel more or less safe than Milo has made people feel.erttheking said:
Then you'll understand me doing the same, surely?erttheking said:
Citation needed.erttheking said:
I never said "nobody". I said I don't. Me personally. Somebody might. It's not my place to dig up dirt on people on the internet.
Regardless, threatening to murder people is a few factors worse than holding negative opinions on trans people and mentioning them on the internet.erttheking said:
You really didn't pay any attention to what I was responding to, did you? I was and always have been talking about Milo.The Lunatic said:
Yeah...no. It's probably fun to stereotype who knows how many people by painting them with the same brush but...no. Citation: I actually use Tumblr and I can tell you right now that you're utterly off the mark.
No offense buddy, you were pulling the exact same card and I fail to see you producing any evidence. Maybe walk the walk instead of just talking the talk. But you want evidence? I'll get to that in a bit. Yeah, it is unlikely that they'll directly run into a Milo supporter. If I had actually said that, it would've been relevant. Actually reply to what I've said please. It feels like you're talking to someone else when I'm trying to talk to you.
What about statutory rape, which what was also going on there? When you commit statutory rape, you don't get to complain that the person you raped didn't have the genitals you thought they did.
Except I brought up two cases, the only two well known cases where this defense has been brought up. Despite this, this defense has only been outlawed in CA. And I gave you a link showing that it is a spin off of the gay panic defense.
Except I can. You want evidence? Here's your evidence.
https://www.glsen.org/article/glsen-releases-new-national-school-climate-survey
55% of LGBT students harassed for their gender expression, 23% physically harassed, 33% regularly hear transphobic statements, students who could identify 11 supportive staff members were less likely to feel unsafe, which only 39% could do.
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/study-transgender-people-experience-discrimination-trying-to-use-bathrooms/
70% of trans people in the DC area experienced a negative reaction to trying to use a public rest room. 54% developed health problems because they just avoid trying to go to the bathroom. If that's not fear, I don't know what is.
Now then, where's that twitter screenshot?
You're just ignoring my point about black people being made out to be biologically inferior aren't you? And it wasn't internet, he was perpetuating the myth of transexual predators at rallies.
Okay, so, what exactly has Milo done that's worse than threatening to kill people?erttheking said:
In my experience that's not the case.erttheking said:
You never asked me to prove anything. You asked if I spoke and listened to trans people. I did, and I told you what they had to say. Then you ignored it because you didn't like it and instead insisted your version of events was the correct one.erttheking said:
Maybe it's you who should actually listen to trans people?
Okay.erttheking said:
Neat? That doesn't excuse rape. You could argue that if the person withheld that information, and the other had no way of knowing it's the fault of the one withholding for not revealing information that would have affected consent, yes?
However, at no point did you reveal they knew the age of the person involved, so, you can't really expect me to defend that. I know it's a tactic of yours, but, you can't reveal half the information and then say "WHAT ABOUT THE STUFF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT AND I DIDN'T ASK ABOUT?!" as some sort of "Gotcha" bit.
Do these two cases represent every single instance of this happening, or is it a specific cherry pick in order to frame something in a certain way?erttheking said:
This has absolutely nothing to do with Milo. Please answer questions rather than bringing up irrelevent stuff and pretending it proves a point nobody was arguing. We already agreed that trans people face hardship. Your argument was that Milo was the cause of it.erttheking said:
I already said I don't have it? I suggested the idea, I'm not out to prove it. If it's so important to you, you can do your own research.erttheking said:
No, I'm not going to go into stuff about black people being biologically inferior because it's a completely random tangent that has no bearing on trans issues.
And I'm fairly sure the event you're talking about was pretty firmly debunked the last time it was brought up, so, I guess if you want to keep pretending that never happened, do continue.
Never was an Ars Technica reader either. Hell, before you brought them up, I dont' think I ever did.StatusNil said:
Yea, fuck Orland too.
Milo called them child molesters and rapists. That's a bit stronger than "negative opinions".The Lunatic said:
I see mainstream game "journalism" outlets continue to disappoint. I guess it's too much to hope that they actually attempt some basic fact checking before pushing a story through. Hell, I wouldn't put it past them to deliberately omit the sordid details on Mauer's end in favor of pushing an agenda or deliberately courting controversy.
Eh I wouldn't give them too much credit. To my knowledge only Destructoid has done a story about it. Anyone see if Kotaku or Polygon have done a story? Even IGN maybe?Neverhoodian said:
But there was a site that did a story. Ars Technica posted a story and if Sidalpha is right, sounds like a rehash of the Destructoid article with just enough changed to not be plagiarism.
Archive here - https://archive.fo/Yup5T
Sidaplha vid here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh3ZKO4MbNk
Anyone read Ars Technica? First time I've heard of the site.