I totally agree on the 'perfect body' thing and I really don't think that's an issue and its just as bad as the male characters. But I can't think of any time a male character has gone through anything as bad as being brainwashed to love their son who is a reincarnation of their own interdimensional rapist, that is just wrong.Therumancer said:Ms. Marvel hasn't been through any more than most other super heroes, it's just that as some of it has involved sexuality (she was impregnated forcibly for one) and a lot of it was done in order to have a political spin, or GIVEN a political spin, which ultimatly wound up ruining the character. Ms. Marvel suffers from attempts to try and turn her into a feminist icon, instead of seeing if she wound up appealing to that audience on her own just by being a decent super hero. Good character, but ruined by Marvel's attempts to get politically profound.burymagnets said:Bob so has to give Ms. Marvel/Warbird her own episode, that girl's been through so much
If anyone's uninformed as to the comic book atrocities comitted against female characters check out Gail Simone's site 'Women in Refrigerators' in which the Green Lantern's girlfriend was.... stuffed into a refrigeratorJust to give him a reason to go after some guy called 'Major Force' (?) URL: http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/index.html
@DanDeFool- which just goes to show there are other military titled supercharacters who don't use 'captain'.
I would like to see the big picture creating a spin-off in 'Bob's Speech Bubble', just sticking with the comic based weirdness. Not that the other episodes aren't excillent, but these comic book background episodes are really interesting and have made comic books a reasonable talking point with my mates![]()
She's up there with the whole "Starfox" incident I mentioned, and how they ruined what was probably over a decade of gradual building to create an awesome "gray" conflict between super heroes where there would be no actual bad guys ( a real "point of view" type conflict ), to engage in a bit of George Bush bashing... yes I am talking about "Civil War" there which pretty much epitomizes everything that is wrong with Marvel's writing staff, it's a shadow of what it could have been, and sold as well as it did I believe because a ot of people saw the potential and the moments of genius, and hoped it would get back on track... but I don't think it ever really did.
There has been plenty of discussion about "femjep" in comic books, with everything from Zatanna (especially early on) getting gagged, to the omni-present damsels in distress. While I suppose you can point a finger at the golden and silver age of comics before the civil liberties movement won most of it's major battles and actually started defining American society, to be honest the portrayal of women in comics has largely grown up as politics and perceptions have. Yes there ARE cases where you can point to some really immature and over the top things, but this isn't an entirely mature genere, and you can point to just as many ridiculous things about male characters. Women just get more press, because people remember the movement and how it gets attention and decide to harp on it.
A good example of this is how you will have people complain about the perfect bodies that female characters tend to have in comic books. The thing is that despite the presentation that isn't one sided, as the guys are typically presented as physically perfect specimins as well. A lot has been said about the portrayal of musclemen in comics, when it can be argued going after that perfect "Charles Atlas" build isn't healthy for a lot of people. Guys who have biceps that are as big around as their heads being viewed by a lot of people as just as bad as women with breasts as big as their heads. Both complaints are ridiculous, the big differance is you don't hear much about the negative influance on little boys, or comments about maturity, unless your listening to some kind of crusade against steroid abuse which some people will argue is encouraged by things like comic characters, and action heroes. Guys like Stallone and Schwartzneggar ripping off their shirts to show off their massive muscles before fighting the bad guys not having helped the matter either, especially when you consider Arnie *WAS* a steroid abuser, albiet he did it before as much as known about it while what he did is illegal now, it wasn't a big deal then.
The point is that people will complain about women in comic books getting bondaged, having perfect builds, torture, and all manner of physical and psychological torments being inflicted on them. The bottom line is that that in the end there is no differance in their treatment, since the guys go through almost all of the same stuff. They get strapped into torture machines, brain washed, put in death traps, get immobilized by their weaknesses, and everything else just as much. Even the rape thing isn't unprecedented because we've had a few cases where the origin of a villain is that it's the child a super hero never realized they had, and whom inherited all of their powers, because they fathered it under duress and were brain washed or whatever (though for both genders the ratings issues make the collection of genetic samples through hair or skin samples or whatever and cloning more common. The point is that there really isn't much actual differance in the treatment of characters. With female super heroes they rescue their boyfriends too. Felicia Hardy has rescued Flash Thompson in her Black Cat guise more than once I believe).
Well, the basic arguement you seem to be making is that this is worse somehow because they are women. There can be some differances between the types of jeopardy they are placed in because the genders are differant and men and women tend to be a bit more or less threatened by specific things.burymagnets said:I totally agree on the 'perfect body' thing and I really don't think that's an issue and its just as bad as the male characters. But I can't think of any time a male character has gone through anything as bad as being brainwashed to love their son who is a reincarnation of their own interdimensional rapist, that is just wrong.
I'm just saying that alot of awful crimes happen to the comparitavely small number of female superheroes, and as most of these stories are written by men, the often sexual element of their hardships seems indecent, those writers can't know how their characters would feel. Also, it just seems wrong that these super-powered characters can ever be misogynistcally humiliated (poor Starfire), they should stand up for women, and women readers.
It seems like the only ones who escape are Wonder Woman, Black Cat and... Squirrel Girl![]()
Similarly, I knew they'd secured the trademark, but not how specifically they did it. There's also a reason they tend to run permutation comics, like Spider-Woman and the like, to prevent knockoffs.maddog015 said:I kinda dug Marvel's Captain Marvel back in the day. And knew that "Shazam" was the original Capt. Marvel, but never bothered looking up why Marvel could use the name and not DC. Thanks for the sum up.![]()
You make some good points. However, I think if we were able to survey the entire genre, abused men are much more likely to get a chance to fight back. A tortured Superman will eventually be able to fight back much more effectively than Lois Lane.Therumancer said:Well, the basic arguement you seem to be making is that this is worse somehow because they are women. There can be some differances between the types of jeopardy they are placed in because the genders are differant and men and women tend to be a bit more or less threatened by specific things.burymagnets said:I totally agree on the 'perfect body' thing and I really don't think that's an issue and its just as bad as the male characters. But I can't think of any time a male character has gone through anything as bad as being brainwashed to love their son who is a reincarnation of their own interdimensional rapist, that is just wrong.
I'm just saying that alot of awful crimes happen to the comparitavely small number of female superheroes, and as most of these stories are written by men, the often sexual element of their hardships seems indecent, those writers can't know how their characters would feel. Also, it just seems wrong that these super-powered characters can ever be misogynistcally humiliated (poor Starfire), they should stand up for women, and women readers.
It seems like the only ones who escape are Wonder Woman, Black Cat and... Squirrel Girl![]()
Ms. Marvel's "big moment" that I think politically ruined the character is no worse than what Cyclops has gone through with Stryfe, or what Spider Man has had to deal with during things like "The Clone Saga" or what some of the symbiotes have done to him over the years. The only real issue is that somehow it's worse because Ms. Marvel is a girl, and that kind
of nukes the entire idea of any kind of equality which is what these arguements are usually presented as being about.
Even when you look at issues like rape, you can look at some of the stuff Mystique has pulled on guys over the years, not to mention that whole thing between Gambit and The Black Queen. Heck, while they glossed over it for purposes of the ratings let's not forget that the entire "Hellfire Club" is fundementally a group of BDSM sickos, and it's not difficult to read between the lines of what a lot of characters captured by them probably went through, and why exactly a lot of people aren't exactly accepting of The White Queen's reformation given that she's a sadistic, mind-raping *****, who did those things because she enjoyed them.
You might say "well, it's differant for guys and bondage, I mean most are secretly into that", whether or not that may or may not be true (I think it's greatly exagerrated) the same is true of women to the same extent, plenty of submissives there as well. Any arguement you could make about the appeal of being the love slave of "The Black Queen", can be turned right around and applied to women in a similar position especially seeing as a lot of those villain guys are just as attractive to an exagerrated degree as she is. Girls have fantasies about that kind of stuff too, and plenty of women create this stuff themselves both in writing and artwork. Heck Anne Rice wrote a number of kinko novels, "Belinda", "Exit To Eden", and the "Sleeping Beauty" trilogy are all her work. To say nothing of some of the themes that run through series like "Anita Blake". You could argue that 90% of the vampire fiction out there directed at women is mind bondage erotica even when the actual sexual content is minimal. It's all about dominance and the joy of submission to "Count Studdly".
The point here is that there is no imbalance in treatment, just in how much complaining you see about it, and how seriously it's taken. I can't think of much you can say female characters have gone through, including rape, that hasn't happened to male characters in similar or superior numbers. Actually if anything male characters probably get it worse because of things like the whole "Starfox" incident where the male god of lust, no matter
how good or well intentioned, is a bloody rapist just by existing apparently. Not to mention all the screaming about "Ms. Marvel" which has irrevocably tainted the character. The situations are equal, but the whining is what unbalances the situation. Writers are just too willing to try and stir up a contreversy for no other purpose, and in the end it's invariably the dudes who come out on the losing end, either IRL, or in the comics themselves.
This whole conversation reminds me also of when they did the movie "My Super Ex-Girlfriend" which was a mediocre movie, but one that got bashed for being misogynistic, yet in watching it I couldn't help but think that nobody complains whenever you do a movie where the antagonist is some unusually talented whack job stalker-guy. If a girl goes ridiculously off the deep end in harassing a guy for something stupid, that's misogynistic, if a guy does it I guess that's not supposed to be insulting? As far as I'm concerned the politics need to go in the trash can, and people need to focus on the stories themselves rather than trying to insert meaning, or read into some kind of horrific message.
So, to be clear right off the bat, I did find this episode interesting, as always. I'm a big fan of The Big Picture, as with most everything I've seen you (MovieBob) do on this site.MovieBob said:Captains Courageous
Watch Video
It's actually somewhat funny, because there can never be a truly good answer to any long running series. I myself, after listening to MovieBob's explanation of chaotic continuities kinda throw my arms in the air and ask "Why even bother?!" but only just now, after reading your post, I kinda realized that the opposite sucks, too. As a longtime wrestling fan, I facepalm over the fact that the writers have a rule of thumb that audience turnovers have about a 5 year cycle, so anything that happened over 5 years ago can be assumed to not be remembered by their mainstream butts-in-seats moneymaking fans. So storylines are copied verbatim, relationships and storylines and feuds involving wrestlers are disregarded, people who were blood relatives are no longer blood relatives, and so on and so forth. As convoluted as things are, at least the comics are trying to tie everything together.pheipl said:With all the continuity problems I cannot fathom why comics still exist. Tv shows staring comic characters unburdened by any continuity should (in any sane universe) be way more popular and accessible (if there were any children that can't stand Miley Cyrus and Justin biever (or Bieber or w/e). I as a child loved Justice League (+ Unlimited), Batman Begins and what was that future batman show called ? (not the CR*P that's now on tv, some sort of happy batman and all his buds).
I just wish I could understand why there are no superhero cartoons any more (good ones that is). I still love Justice League!
Not really, remember Lois Lane is not a super hero. She's a dependant. Now granted she has blurred the distinction at times when she has had super abillities for a time, or had her own comic series which kind of played out like a sleuth/mystery story type thing, but in general her entire reason to exist is to provide a sense of jeopardy for Superman, whose name is on the cover. He fights back in the end, because he's Superman and it's his comic book. There are female heroes who have dependants who are in the same position.4173 said:[You make some good points. However, I think if we were able to survey the entire genre, abused men are much more likely to get a chance to fight back. A tortured Superman will eventually be able to fight back much more effectively than Lois Lane.
Most of that could probably be chalked up to their being more male superheroes and therefor more non-powered female significant others. (And that's fine with me, I'm not saying it needs to be equal. I'm not saying there is a sinister motive). From a pure numbers perspective though, I doubt women as a group get as much revenge as men.
Sorry, I don't think I expressed myself well enough.Therumancer said:Not really, remember Lois Lane is not a super hero. She's a dependant. Now granted she has blurred the distinction at times when she has had super abillities for a time, or had her own comic series which kind of played out like a sleuth/mystery story type thing, but in general her entire reason to exist is to provide a sense of jeopardy for Superman, whose name is on the cover. He fights back in the end, because he's Superman and it's his comic book. There are female heroes who have dependants who are in the same position.4173 said:[You make some good points. However, I think if we were able to survey the entire genre, abused men are much more likely to get a chance to fight back. A tortured Superman will eventually be able to fight back much more effectively than Lois Lane.
Most of that could probably be chalked up to their being more male superheroes and therefor more non-powered female significant others. (And that's fine with me, I'm not saying it needs to be equal. I'm not saying there is a sinister motive). From a pure numbers perspective though, I doubt women as a group get as much revenge as men.
Argueing that Lois Lane, or Aunt May, have bad things happen to them but don't get to fight back and save the day is kind of silly. Besides, it's kind of co-ed especially in Superman. Lois Lane is one of the more common characters to put in jeopardy given that she's his love interest, but let's not just forget that Jimmy Olson winds up in the same situations, oftentimes right next to Lois Lane. Honestly I think Lois has probably had more moments of cool than Jimmy had over the years... though both have saved Superman more than once.
Now, a better arguement, but one that also doesn't qork, would be in looking at sidekicks. Sidekicks being other heroes who exist to play off the protaganist, being captured and rescued, but also doing some cool things and fighting alongside them as well.
One of the big arguements oftentimes made is about how characters like "Black Canary" like "Zatanna" have spent a goodly amount of time in bondage with gags in their mouth. The thing to consider though is that when that mostly happened she was effectively acting as a sidekick to other characters like "Green Arrow" as opposed to an actual partner. Due to her popularity the scope of the character was increased, she became an actual partner, and started getting equal billing on super teams, although she hasn't ever really been able to hold down a title of her own for long. The transition actually does matter, and a lot of criticisms of characters like this being defeated are kind of silly when you consider that other sidekicks who are guys deal with the same problem all the time. Indeed Robin has been captured and tied up so many times that it feeds into all the jokes about the "reality" of his relationship with Batman.
Irregardless of gender, it's important to carefully consider what role a character is actually playing in a story. When dealing with long running characters who began as bit parts or sidekicks and then were developed into full fledged heroes the situation can be complicated. Given that a lot of long running female heroes have relatively humble
origins there can be some confusion on the issue. While bad things still happen, there is a definate differance between how the Black Canary of today fits into stories and the role she plays than what she did when she was first introduced. She was very much a "robin" type.
Of course then again, whose name is on the cover of a comic book also says a lot. Even a character who is usually a sidekick is going to be far more effective if he has his own spin off. For example if your reading a "Robin" comic book, chances are he isn't going to wind up spending the whole thing tied up in a closet waiting to be rescued. Even with dependants, like say Lois Lane, or even Comissioner Gordon, if the comic series bears their name as the title then they aren't going to be the victim, and the opposition is likely to be scaled to them. Comissioner Gordon being an example of a dependant character that doesn't fit the usual mould, since he provides a useful service to the hero without fighting alongside them, he however spends most of his time getting outgunned and needing to be rescued, or protected from the criminals he fights. Gordon might conceptually be a tough (if aging) cop, but he's not an action hero (except rarely when he's had his own title), typically the most useful thing he can do is turn on the Bat Signal... that's kind of his job as far as the stories go.
Not necessarily important. Just relevant to my life in some significant way.Vault Citizen said:If you want important information why are you coming to a website that is pretty much all about entertainment?ReiverCorrupter said:Bob. I'm going to stop watching your shorts if you keep filling my mind with UTTERLY useless information. Seriously. I've probably unlearned something important to make room for that shite.
Might have been Black Adam. Similar costume, similar powers.punipunipyo said:okay... so... can you then explain to me why in the trailer (the full pre-rendered) DC-universe online, on the "Lex Luther side", why is "Cap-Marvel (the DC one, of course)" on the bad guy's side? because I AM SOOOOO SURE that B4 the "NUKE BOOM", he said "SAHZAM" then "BOOM" it went... WHO WAS THAT ONE? it can't be the "kid" could it?
Nice informative episode by the way...
You're using your free time to post on a video game journalism site. You have nothing important to unlearn.ReiverCorrupter said:Bob. I'm going to stop watching your shorts if you keep filling my mind with UTTERLY useless information. Seriously. I've probably unlearned something important to make room for that shite.
It's called procrastination, and it's a common practice amongst students,Optimystic said:You're using your free time to post on a video game journalism site. You have nothing important to unlearn.ReiverCorrupter said:Bob. I'm going to stop watching your shorts if you keep filling my mind with UTTERLY useless information. Seriously. I've probably unlearned something important to make room for that shite.
(Neither do I, and it's bliss.)