The Big Picture: Correctitude

[jabrwock]

It could be argued that you can convey just as much of the author's intent with a different word selection. If, in fact, the purpose was to satirize the treatment of black men of the time, that is still demonstrated through how the character is treated, rather than simply what he is called.

See, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Thor's is a change of color. Huck's is a change of name. Everything else remains the same. It's just a cosmetic change to reflect a different current reality.

I don't see the comparison. N-word has a complete set of literary meaning behind it, slave does not have the same. "He's well spoken for a slave" just doesn't carry the same sense of incredulity that the original phrase would have. "Neanderthal" might be a better fit, but of course that's a bit of a stretch for Huck to use.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

I really disagree with the Res 5 and Thor points. I do see why the Res 5 one could of been the way with the Tribal imagery but the complaint was more white dude kills black dudes. The thing that annoyed me about Thor was out of all the gods they picked the whitest of the white and made him black. That is the part that annoys me and it just seems like massive trollbait. They could of picked anyone else but they picked him.

 

[Ian S]

Can't really say too much to what has already been said here, but like many others, I disagree - at least in general - with what Bob said here. Sadly, Political Correctness HAS gotten out of hand. I'd say the fact that some people have charged others with being PC to get themselves off the hook for saying outrageous things is a symptom of a greater disease. To briefly respond to some specific points:

- Jeff Dunham's comedy IS NOT mean. Obviously Bob, you have a slightly different sense of humor than I and my girlfriend do (I also like MST3K as well), because we think he's hilarious. Carlos Mencia? On the fence about that (though I did like his dig at Kanye West with his "Gold Digger" video parody). Now if you had said, say, Larry the Cable Guy instead of Dunham, I think I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

- RE5 I think was case of too many people taking something and blowing it WAY out of proportion. If Capcom was guilty of anything, it's that they don't have as good an understanding of other cultures because Japan's culture is nowhere near as diverse as the U.S. is.

- Idris Elba as Heimdall: I agree with lowkey_jotun in that his casting had less to do with acknowledging 21st century cultural sensibilities and more to do with pandering to a certain demographic. And has others have pointed out, it makes no sense because there were NO black Norse gods.

I think the big problem with this video, Bob, is that you only had about 5 minutes to make your point when really this kind of topic is something that deserves more like an hour's worth of time. As evidenced by the amount of comments this has generated here, this is anything but a cut-and-dried issue.

Personally, I get the feeling you and I could have a great conversation since we seem to like a lot of the same things, but disagree on some of them just enough to make it interesting. I'd personally like us to do a special podcast show or something in the vein of "At the Movies" where I could be Gene Siskel to your Roger Ebert. Just something to consider.

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

I really disagree with the Res 5 and Thor points. I do see why the Res 5 one could of been the way with the Tribal imagery but the complaint was more white dude kills black dudes. The thing that annoyed me about Thor was out of all the gods they picked the whitest of the white and made him black. That is the part that annoys me and it just seems like massive trollbait. They could of picked anyone else but they picked him.

Frankly, considering how often movie makers just fuck the source material so they can have their vaunted creative freedom. Bitching about them selecting a competent, Nay, good actor to play a character simply because he's a different ethnicity ; which I should point is a utterly trivial separation to begin with, is frankly asinine and really has no place in the discussion as far a me myself am concerned.

 

[370999]

I have no beef with you but if we are going to get into a slagging match I don't think there is any real need to keep posting.

And yet here you are.

If you don't want a slagging match, don't engage in rhetoric like "you want the government telling us what to say!" because someone happens not to agree with you about a highly restricted thing like hate-speech laws. That's a stupid thing to say. And when I said you were plainly ill-informed:

Could you explain to me how I am being ignorant.

That was why.

As for what's wrong with Geert Wilders and Fitna (aside from his being a cowardly neo-fascist hypocrite who tries to hide his own attempts to silence other's speech behind the shield of "free speech"): there's volumes to be written about it, and the parallels between his views and those of anti-Semites in the Thirties. No, I'm not going to be your educator on an Escapist comment thread, I've spent too much of my time serving that function for people like yourself on these forums as it is. There's tons of point and counterpoint on Fitna easily available via Google for your research; make use of it. Follow the trial, for that matter, I'm sure there's plenty of detail to be had.

So could you explain to me why you think the recent conviiction of Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff is right as rain in your eyes? As I am looking forward to how you tarnish her as a Nazi. Likewise I mentioned the Canadian court of human rights before, which you seemed to have ignored, I imagine i was slightly too borad, could you please deal with why you think the blogger Mark steyn should have faced a trial and why you think that an organisation whcih openly engages in racist behaviour (see the anti-semetic comments it posted on the pro-nazi websites) should be the arbiter of free speech?

In addition I feel you have slightly missed some of the thrust of my argument. The point was that laws have a habit of snowballing. If you make an organisation capable of dictating what is legal to say, then don't be suprised as the list starts becoming more and more restrictive.

EDIT: On the point of Heimdall, I feel Bob is doing this both ways, I don't see how he can raise his eyebrow at the Last Airbender but this is fine and anyone who says differently si a racist. My personnal opinion is that it does not amtter really,s ure you should try to find a actor who matches the characters description and if the actor is being chosen to fit with a rpe-existing description it is important ( a black Salin? A Japanese Martin Luther King? A white Aztec King?)but in both this case and the Last Airbender it is really not.

I think as well that comedy does need to have an edge to it to be funny, it does need a degree of meanness. Let's be fair, comedy is the most equal oppurtunity gig in hsitory as long as people laugh you are good at it. Arguing that Bill Hick's isn't mean in his comedy is prehaps one of the most blinkered approach to it ever. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be, in fact it is what makes him so funny, but you can't act morally outraged that some other comedian is mean. Yahztee who Bobs admires is brutal in his tone and content but that is why he is funny.

 

[Migratingchimp]

Not very PC this week Bob... lol JK but damn sounds like somebody crapped in your cheerios over the weekend. Fun to watch as always though. Keep up the good work.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

if it isn't racist to say "Peter Parker can't be Black cause his fictionalized character is white and we HAVE to stick to that forever and ever", then we have no real concept or definition for what "racism" is.

It's not racist to demand fictional characters remain consistent. As someone else pointed out, Thor isn't just a comic book character he's a God of a (most-likely) all white culture (the Norse).

Fictional CHARACTER.
In other words, the character can be re-envisioned in any way they want.
I mean, geez, what is a bigger impact on the character, using Thor as an example:

Heimdall, a Norse God being played by a black actor, who actually is probably the best actor in the film if you compared previous films?

The fact that all of the Mythology has been completely altered, for example, that whole "Norse Gods" thing that you used as a reason for why the fictional characters should remain white, yeah, all of that nonsense is gone. Instead, they come from a magical planet. No religious stuff here.

So see?
Besides, these characters were made to appeal to a large audience of people. Superman, Spiderman, and the like, they weren't created to make WHITE people feel superior, or exclude blacks from feeling heroic. They were created so the CHARACTERS, the HEROES, could inspire awe and imagination in the reader. That connection could be made whether the characters were white, black, or whatever.

Want an example? Look at 99% of manga. Heroes and characters with western/white features who are assumed to be Japanese in nationality, doing Japanese things to entertain Japanese readers. I mean, look at Naruto. How many blond, blue eyed Japanese are there? But it doesn't matter to them. Because in their minds, Naruto is as japanese as the rest of them.

 

[drivel]

I don't think Bob even suggested that anyone's right to Free Speech be revoked. I'm pretty sure all he said was if you're being a bigot, or a misogynist, you should be called out for being that.

Moreover, I agree that Jeff Dunham is a hack, and Carlos Mencia is a joke thief. I don't find them funny; but, that's not because they're "mean." It's because their act is wholly unoriginal. The comics that Bob mentioned have done their act before, and they've done it better than any of them could ever dream of doing it. Their material is tired, and I'm tired of seeing their faces.

I'll throw this out because I don't think being mean excludes you from being funny. Yes, it's bullying, but bullying people is funny. This is from a person who was bullied in elementary and middle school. Honestly, I think Daniel Tosh is one of the funniest guys out there right now, and that guy is a JERK. Seriously. But, I can't stop laughing at his jokes. I think that makes me a horrible person. I think I'm OK with that.

 

[Migratingchimp]

Honestly we are talking about Gods here. Who the shit are we to say what race they are?

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

Honestly we are talking about Gods here. Who the shit are we to say what race they are?

To add to that we're not even talking about the Norse gods we're talking about aliens pretending to be gods in a comic which frankly seem to change even major characters ideals on a whim.

 

[Technicka]

On the black Thor character, I'm against Bob. If you are indeed fighting FOR political correctness as you claim you are, and fighting AGAINST people who say "oh, you're just being PC," you will realize that there are no black Norse Gods. I have no problem with a black Spider-Man or Captain America because their "whiteness" is not central to their character. The fact that Spidey is white doesn't define him, so if a black, asian, or indian actor does a great job playing him, I'm all for it. But the Norse Gods are WHITE. That IS central to who they are. They are the WHITE gods of a WHITE people. This is one of the very few instances where a character's "whiteness" IS central to the character, so to make him any other race, IS in fact politically incorrect.

Except, in the Marvel Universe the Norse pantheon are not actually gods. They're an advance race of supermen.

Everyone is up in arms about the casting of Idris Elba, but where's the outrage over the casting of the Asian actor? And why weren't people mad when Loki was a woman in the comics? The Thor of Marvel is NOT the Thor of Norse legends. They're simply loosely based on the premise.

And the argument of "Well, they were white Gods, for white people" is a terrible one to use. Consider that when people create a deity, they will, more than likely, base many of its features on what they know. That does not automatically make them correct. For example, If you look up images of Jesus, you see a white man. Yet, not only was Jesus a Jew, his ability to not stand out from a crowd (until he whipped out a miracle) would imply that he looked very much like the average citizen of that time/era - i.e. Middle Eastern. SO one could argue that a god can look however the believer wants them to look - so a black Norse god is no more crazy than a WASP-y Jesus born in the middle east to a pair of Jews.

As for black Nick Fury, there is a more subjective topic that someone brought up. I personally think white Nick Fury is better. When Fury is white, he's tough as nails, gritty, and in your face. He doesn't take your crap, and he won't hesitate to tell you so. For some reason, black Nick Fury didn't just get a color swap, he got a personality change. Suddenly he's a smooth talking bad-@$$ mutha... etc. I'm not okay with that. I think it defeats the purpose of political correctness if you make a white character black for diversity, and then change that character's personality to match that of walking stereotype Samuel L. Jackson.

Ultimate Fury does all the same things as 616 Fury. In fact, he's more of a tough bastard because Ultimates is all about ramping up the attitudes of the characters. The only reason behind using Jackson as a muse for this version was because the staff wanted to as they were big fans. The Ultimate universe is the universe where every character is turned into a raging asshole. So of course they were going to be some changes to his personality. EVERYONE got a personality tweak. Fury's is hardly any worse than Cap's.

 

[0986875533423]

One of your best, Bob. I'm all for free speech, but if someone is going to be a jerk and offend just for the sake of being offensive, then they have no justification to defend themselves and deserve to be called out on their douchebaggery.

Then you aren't all for free speech. This is why I don't think free speech actually exists, if it did, people could say all the jerkwad/douchebag things they wanted, and not only would nobody complain, but nobody would ever get offended in the first place.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

So see?
Besides, these characters were made to appeal to a large audience of people. Superman, Spiderman, and the like, they weren't created to make WHITE people feel superior, or exclude blacks from feeling heroic.

Knock off the strawmen.

No strawmen here. Just facts and knowledge.

 

[Technicka]

Then you aren't all for free speech. This is why I don't think free speech actually exists, if it did, people could say all the jerkwad/douchebag things they wanted, and not only would nobody complain, but nobody would ever get offended in the first place.

That doesn't even begin to make sense.

Free Speech isn't about the right to be an asshole, and have your words not effect people. Free Speech only protects the speaker(s) from government censor. Naturally, that would only apply to the places that the gov't has control - as well as allows the concept of free speech to flourish.

This modern concept of Free Speech allowing people to run off at the mouth with no consequence is beyond stupid. Your right to free expression does not get to trample on another person's right to express themselves by telling you to piss off.

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

One of your best, Bob. I'm all for free speech, but if someone is going to be a jerk and offend just for the sake of being offensive, then they have no justification to defend themselves and deserve to be called out on their douchebaggery.

Then you aren't all for free speech. This is why I don't think free speech actually exists, if it did, people could say all the jerkwad/douchebag things they wanted, and not only would nobody complain, but nobody would ever get offended in the first place.

Free speech is always going to get hamstrung by the fact that in the real world societies only function trough niceness attributed and gained for each other. EI if everyone was a raging douchebag we wouldn't have this discussion, because their would be no society and thus no progress or culture to debate.

 

[MagnusShalefist]

I have never respected you as much as I do now, MovieBob. Keep on fighting the good fight. *salutes*