The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 1

[RJ Dalton]

Personally, I hate when destiny gets used in fiction, largely for the reasons that Bob points out. As someone who's been writing fantasy since I was . . . 12 I think, I've used destiny as a plot device twice in my entire life: once when I was really young and didn't know any better, and once in a completely different way from usual. The prophecy was not something related to the world, but the character received a personal revelation because he just happened to visit a wise, elderly priestess to ask for a blessing for a friend who'd been injured earlier and he gets this very potent, but vague personal prophecy, the purpose of which he is told is not to let him know what's going to happen, but to basically tell him that things are going to happen that are going to change his life and if he doesn't pay attention and watch for it, the choices that should be his will all be made for him.

And, although I haven't written this far in yet, the the prophecy and destiny thing never becomes more than a personal conflict between him and a character who evolves into his personal nemesis. His destiny isn't to save the world, or change it in some way. Everything he does that gets him known to the world is both due to his own personal efforts and completely unrelated to the prophecy. The resolution of the prophecy happens in private and nobody knows anything about it except the main character, his closest friends, and his nemesis. My thinking is that the whole purpose of his prophecy is not to tell him what to do, but to prepare him for the time when he can either take control of his personal destiny, or let it fall into the hands of others who want to use him. It's not to tell him what to do, it's to give him an awareness enough so that he can make his own decisions.

Sorry, rambled a bit. I just wanted to suggest another way in which destiny can be played with. But the point is, played straight, destiny is a cheap way to strong-arm characters into action. You shouldn't use destiny unless you're putting a twist or something on it.

 

[stueymon]

The Harry Potter reference in destiny is kinda flawed.

Harry Potter is an example of self-fulfilling prophecy where Harry became Voldemort's nemesis because they arbitrarily decided that out of the two boys that it could have been (Harry and Neville) they thought it would probably be Harry because of his parents.

 

[martyrdrebel27]

Destined for Disappointment, Part 1

MovieBob looks at the overuse of "Destiny" as a plot point in recent superhero movies.

Watch Video

it's unfortunate that you so easily dismissed The Hunger Games movies, because although they don't really touch on it well enough, the book series does a fantastic job of melding the two worlds of chance and destiny and such an organic way. It never says it was Katniss's destiny to be the Mockingjay, nor does it imply it even as subtext, but if you look at the individual parts of the greater whole, who she is, why she is who she is, who everyone around is and why they are who they are, it so perfectly fits into a 1 in a million chance destiny narrative that i feel you'd really appreciate.

i know as a movie critic, your job is to Critique movies (duh haha) and in that regard, your Hunger Games reviews are okay, but they feel so willingly misguided by not investing yourself in the greater world of the fiction by reading the books. if i could urge you to read the book series then rewatch the movies, i think you may end up with a better perspective of them.

also, Katniss isn't a futurey name, it's a plant. her father was an avid outdoorsman, and named his daughters after two flowers in the area, Katniss and Primrose. dismissing that as "futurey" is just choosing to be ignorant.

wow, got all sorts of tangential, but that's been bothering me for awhile.

OT: it really is sad how the worst version of spiderman and what we've seen of TMNT are so damn similar. it really makes it feel like a modular, insert play pieces here kinda script. as if both were written from the same Mad Libs book, with only the Proper Noun spaces left blank.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Heh I didn't notice the similarity with TMNT and Amazing Spider-man trailer until now and the rehash of the destiny trope (but hey I liked Abbram Star Trek).

 

[Draconalis]

Jesus... you're idea of recent, and my idea of recent are two entirely different things...

It I was barely hitting puberty when the movie came out.... it's not recent.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I hate to be that guy, especially since I actually agree with most criticisms of the new Ninja Turtles thus far, but the original comic as written by Eastman and Laird actually did include a sort of destiny to fight the Shredder: because that is what Splinter spent fifteen or so years training them to do. He literally explains this to them before sending them to call Shredder out. Admittedly this could be looked on as a revenge plot rather than destiny.

And now that he's mentioned the idea that Mr. O'Neil could be Splinter, I can't stop thinking about it or how horrible an idea it actually is.

It is also my supreme hope that at movie's end 'Eric Sachs' (Fitchner is a good guy, but Jesus I hate this) stumbles into his office having just barely escaped a brutal arse kicking and is doing whole 'Next time, Gadget, next time!' when he gets stabbed in the gullet and his helmet ripped off him by Oroku Saki.

 

[porpoise hork]

The Star Wars Prequals?

Almost got the use of destiny right?




I can't wait to see how he ties that one together.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I completely despised your review of "Into Darkness" because of how much it came across as fanboy butt-hurting, but I will grant you that they did play up the destiny thing (especially because I've recently been gorging on episodes of the original series and can more readily see the differences).

Also, like so many others, I'm surprised your example of almost doing it right is the Star Wars prequels. But that's only because I'm used to everyone but me having nothing but bile for them. In terms of overall plot, I do feel that Lucas did it right. The dialogue and the progression of the romance could've been a lot better, but still. I'll be interested to see what points you raise.

Wait you don't despise the Star Wars Prequels? I have found a brother in arms! *hugs tight* At last. I truly have found a magnificent treasure of a human being today.

OT: I'm curious of what the general reaction to said episode is going to be from us personally. I mean if someone so much as tries to paint the prequels in any light but negative it is nothing but rage a holic fanboy that storm the forums reasserting why nothing the prequels did was right and why every single minute detail of those movies was the wrong choice.

Count me in! I too, do not hate the Prequel Trilogy and related media with fiery passion, nor do I call for George Lucas' head on a spike (I mean, Jaysus, people! Come on!). They weren't perfect, but they were technologically magnificent. That was a hell of a cliffhanger for Bob to leave us on for next week.

 

[mrhumble1]

Man of Steel has got to be the worst recent offender. It wasn't enough for Kal-El to be sent to Earth as a baby to be an idol for humanity, the last (or one of the last) survivor(s) of a dead planet with incredible powers beyond those of mortal men... but he's also the DNA Jesus of Krypton, too.

Was there really anyone in that writer's room that genuinely worried that Superman wasn't special enough already?

I am so sick of everyone trashing MoS. Bob, you got this movie completely wrong and so does anyone else who thinks that "destiny" had anything to do with MoS. Was there a prophecy? Was there a prediction?? Was there a grand scheme? NOPE.

Daddy Jor-El wanted to try and save his son and also his race by sending son and species DNA-in-a-Codex to another world where they might have a chance to survive. He never made a prophecy and he never made a prediction. He just had a very basic "plan" and a lot of hope. The movie is about HOPE. They talk about it the whole damn time.

Bob, you even contradict yourself in this video. You say something to the effect of "Originally, Spiderman and the TMNMTurtles are so great because they had their circumstances thrust on them (powers acquired by accident/chance) then must grapple with what to do with their powers (via individual choice). This is built into the basic makeup of these characters."

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS IN MoS!!! Supes gets powers he doesn't want and didn't ask for, then has to discover how to deal with these powers and make choices as to how to impact the world. Yes, technically him being powerful is not an accident, but from his point of view it is no different than when Peter Parker gets bitten by the spider. Both are somewhat normal, then given great power without asking for it. Both have to hide who they are, too.

Someone please tell me where the "Destiny" story line is in MoS. Jor-El has hope, and tells Supes what he can be, but it is up to Kal to decide how to make that happen. Individual choice, not destiny. If anything, it is also a story about random fate, too. What if Supes had landed his craft in the middle of a populated area?? Everything would have been different if the whole world saw an alien craft land. He just got lucky (more random-ness) that he landed in Kansas on the farm of a really good set of parents.

So we have hope (sending son and Codex off into space), luck (landing in Kansas), fate (powers thrust on him unwanted), and personal choice (decision to wait and not reveal himself). Destiny has nothing to do with it.

____

Oh, BTW, this TMNT movie looks awful. The Turtles are too big/tall and making Shredder a white guy is insulting, not to mention the whole thing just looks lazy. I expect nothing more from Bay. He ruined (and continues to ruin) Transformers and none of his movies will get any of my money.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

Honestly, I'm OK with the idea of everything being interconnected in a superhero movie, because otherwise we're left to believe that what starts out as, for all intents and purposes, "the real world" suddenly spawned a super-powered hero AND a rogues gallery of super-powered villains for them to fight through sheer coincidence. Though "interconnected" does not have to mean "literally planned out by a single entity to play out exactly as it did". That's not interesting to audiences because it's literally the least creative way to explain a series of events.

And don't even get me started on movies like Alice in Wonderland where the protagonist is told, up front, that it's their destiny to be the hero as if that's meant to be their motivation to actually be one. On the rare occasion that they go with it, the character ends up being thoroughly uninteresting because of what amounts to a complete lack of motivation; and all the times they reject the alleged destiny only to step up and become the hero later for other reasons, the whole destiny business served no real purpose other than to check off a box on the Joseph Campbell checklist.

I went back and watched Bob's review of Alice to see if that was one of the big things he complained about, like the Nostalgia Critic recently did, and it wasn't. Maybe he hadn't gotten nearly as sick of the cliché by that point. I think I would have cried foul if I had bothered to watch the movie.

 

[OrokuSaki]

Well at the end Anakin did bring balance to the force like he was supposed to, just at the end of movie VI instead of III.

 

[Kingjackl]

That was an unexpected hook for the next episode, to say the least. I'm looking forward to it now.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Just when I thought he was done, Bob once again pulls out his hatred for MoS, ASM, and J.J. Abrams' STAR TREK to crowbar it into another video. He couldn't have gone for an even 4 and thrown Green Lantern in there? The way I see it, it was still an accident when Peter was bitten by the radioactive spider, and it's his choice to find out what happened to his parents. I see a "destiny" of sorts at work with Superman, because he was unlike anyone else, human or kryptonian. What else could he do but put his powers to good use, because of the consequences of doing anything else were exponentially worse.

 

[Crispee]

I usually grow tired of Bob railing against Amazing Spider-Man (I actually like that film despite its problems), but I have to admit he has a point here, it does seem like they're boiling the Spider-Man story from one guy verses a world of danger, down to a conflict between two people.

I don't think that's lazy destiny writing though so much as Sony getting greedy, they wanted to do the Avengers thing and build up a set of characters over the course of several films but got impatient and just threw them all into two films, giving them a common origin and diminishing their individuality.

Still looking forward to ASM2 though, if only because the Spidey/Electro fights look like they're gonna be sweet. I don't hold out hope for the actual plot.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

The worst April Fools joke of all will be Bob being right about Splinter in the upcoming movie by Mr. O'Neil. Overall though, I knew there was something really familiar about the TMNT trailer...I even saw AS-M in theaters but it was just kind of forgettable so I was missing a few dots and was therefore unable to connect them.

 

[PunkRex]

I doubt it was intentional, but I can't help but point out that Bob said the Star Wars prequels did something right... on April Fool's Day.

GAWDAMMIT! I was so looking forward to watching the internet burn in the never ending flame war that was certain to ensue...

 

[KazeAizen]

I completely despised your review of "Into Darkness" because of how much it came across as fanboy butt-hurting, but I will grant you that they did play up the destiny thing (especially because I've recently been gorging on episodes of the original series and can more readily see the differences).

Also, like so many others, I'm surprised your example of almost doing it right is the Star Wars prequels. But that's only because I'm used to everyone but me having nothing but bile for them. In terms of overall plot, I do feel that Lucas did it right. The dialogue and the progression of the romance could've been a lot better, but still. I'll be interested to see what points you raise.

Wait you don't despise the Star Wars Prequels? I have found a brother in arms! *hugs tight* At last. I truly have found a magnificent treasure of a human being today.

OT: I'm curious of what the general reaction to said episode is going to be from us personally. I mean if someone so much as tries to paint the prequels in any light but negative it is nothing but rage a holic fanboy that storm the forums reasserting why nothing the prequels did was right and why every single minute detail of those movies was the wrong choice.

Count me in! I too, do not hate the Prequel Trilogy and related media with fiery passion, nor do I call for George Lucas' head on a spike (I mean, Jaysus, people! Come on!). They weren't perfect, but they were technologically magnificent. That was a hell of a cliffhanger for Bob to leave us on for next week.

Seriously. Plus the guy donated like a billion dollars to charity. Not exactly the pinnacle of evil. I remember Bob mentioning in his twitter feed something along those lines last week about the prequels. Perhaps it got him to thinking that he could kill two birds with one stone. 1) Calling out lazy hollywood and 2) Offer an even better defense of the prequels from raging fan boys who won't let it go. Kind of like how he did with his Episode 1 "review" a year or so back.

 

[Pickapok]

I think this entire video stemmed from a dramatic case of "reading too deeply into the trailer." It never tells us that the turtles were created on purpose.

Yes, it says that Shredder and April's father were trying to create heroes, but as near as I can tell they may have just been referring to the Ooze (which we've heard reports of Shredder dosing himself with). Isn't it entirely possible that the TMNT were still created by a freak accidental exposure to a TMNT-verse super soldier serum?

 

[V4Viewtiful]

Yes, it says that Shredder and April's father were trying to create heroes, but as near as I can tell they may have just been referring to the Ooze (which we've heard reports of Shredder dosing himself with)

... the Ooze will turn him into a super Japanese man? 0_o


(Sorry, I couldn't resist )