I know exactly where you're going with the whole Destiny thing in the prequels, Bob. Throughout the trilogy, they talk constantly about how Anakin is supposed to be the one to "bring balance to the Force" because it's his destiny or some shit. This all gets fucked up when Anakin does what he does, and hell, Obi-Wan literally calls him out on it. When in ACTUALITY, it was Luke that the prophecy's and destiny speeches were talking about, when he is the one that ultimately leads the Sith to their downfall. It can be argued, however, that since Vader killed the Emperor and essentially committed suicide in the process, that the prophecy's were right all along, and that act was what brought balance to the Force, since that marked the end of the Sith.
The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 1
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I would like to speculate the logic behind the Star Wars Prequels here for a moment, just to see how close I am a week from now:
Part of this, I would think, is helped by the concept of them being prequels and having an established destiny they need to fulfill. Anakin had to become evil because future films (original trilogy) required him to do so. But taking this a step farther, the destiny was vague, saying that Anakin would only bring great change to the force. It never said for good or ill. And in his case, it was both. He brought down the Jedi to a small number and, likewise, eliminated all known Sith and the end of the series. And it was all in the parameters character's freewill and choice.
In short, whatever Anakin/Vader felt was the correct path (jedi or sith) would be the path he would fight for throughout the series. You could argue that the dark path was still ultimately destined for him to go to. But barring the original trilogy needing to happen, it wasn't simply because Anakin was created to be evil. Through the series, he was given many choices and options on how to solve his problems (as a Jedi or as a Sith). And it was Palpatine who kept pushing him in a certain direction. And, for a while, Anakin was able to push back some of that temptation, only given in at times that most people would consider more than appropriate (like the death of his mother). And I think it also helped that he had Palpatine and Obi-wan acting as his conscience for a fair portion of the films as well until Palpatine found an opening to turn Anakin into his puppet.
That's my speculation... course I could be way off from what Bob is thinking. I should probably refresh myself on the movies as it's been a couple years since I've seen em and I probably missed a few important details.
Part of this, I would think, is helped by the concept of them being prequels and having an established destiny they need to fulfill. Anakin had to become evil because future films (original trilogy) required him to do so. But taking this a step farther, the destiny was vague, saying that Anakin would only bring great change to the force. It never said for good or ill. And in his case, it was both. He brought down the Jedi to a small number and, likewise, eliminated all known Sith and the end of the series. And it was all in the parameters character's freewill and choice.
In short, whatever Anakin/Vader felt was the correct path (jedi or sith) would be the path he would fight for throughout the series. You could argue that the dark path was still ultimately destined for him to go to. But barring the original trilogy needing to happen, it wasn't simply because Anakin was created to be evil. Through the series, he was given many choices and options on how to solve his problems (as a Jedi or as a Sith). And it was Palpatine who kept pushing him in a certain direction. And, for a while, Anakin was able to push back some of that temptation, only given in at times that most people would consider more than appropriate (like the death of his mother). And I think it also helped that he had Palpatine and Obi-wan acting as his conscience for a fair portion of the films as well until Palpatine found an opening to turn Anakin into his puppet.
That's my speculation... course I could be way off from what Bob is thinking. I should probably refresh myself on the movies as it's been a couple years since I've seen em and I probably missed a few important details.
I like the way that destiny and prophecy are used in "A Song of Ice and Fire" series (Game of Thrones for those who can't read).
All the various prophecies and stupidly vague and several different people and events could fit into them. Not only that but some people are so certain that their particular interpretation is right they manufacture a bunch of the signs in order for them to fit "i.e. Lady Melisandre's certainty that Stannis is Azor Ahai".
I know Destiny and prophecy aren't quite the same thing but I really hate both of them in everything, and in fantasy they are fucking omnipresent!
All the various prophecies and stupidly vague and several different people and events could fit into them. Not only that but some people are so certain that their particular interpretation is right they manufacture a bunch of the signs in order for them to fit "i.e. Lady Melisandre's certainty that Stannis is Azor Ahai".
I know Destiny and prophecy aren't quite the same thing but I really hate both of them in everything, and in fantasy they are fucking omnipresent!
I said the exact same thing when I saw the trailer for the new Turtles movie. I didn't like that everything was all connected because it made the world seem smaller and that only a few people mattered. Nice to see I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Really looking forward to seeing Bob's take on the Star Wars prequels next week.
Really looking forward to seeing Bob's take on the Star Wars prequels next week.
I think my problem with adding it to some of the movies is that it's not really needed - the TMNT are GIANT MUTANT TURTLES, and April O'Neil is a reporter. Or scientist, depends. If Hannibal can gender-bend and update Freddie Lounds from Phillip S. Hoffman to the red-head playing her now, or if Elementary can have Holmes and Watson meet over something besides sharing a room, you can have a two-hour movie that has April doing science or reporting to find them out, learn their backstory, and there be epic brawl at the end.
...and I think I just wrote a better story then what they showed for the new TMNT movie.
...and I think I just wrote a better story then what they showed for the new TMNT movie.
I'm gonna bet that the destiny thing for the Star Wars prequels works because he actually completed his predestined action, except every wise mentor figure who looked at the damn prophecy completely misread it.
Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force. Everyone thought that this meant he'd destroy the dark side, which just exemplifies how little they understand the concept of balance. At the beginning of Star Wars I, there are hundreds of Jedi and two Sith. At the end of Star Wars III, there are two Jedi, and two Sith. It's not hard to realize.
I always like the heroes who rise to the occasion more than the destined ones. Xenoblade, Dragon Age, Mass Effect (when the writers weren't trying to deify Shepard, anyway), the mooks you control in Fallout, they all produce that fun mix of a character who does it on their own but still shapes the world in the same way as someone destined to do so.
Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force. Everyone thought that this meant he'd destroy the dark side, which just exemplifies how little they understand the concept of balance. At the beginning of Star Wars I, there are hundreds of Jedi and two Sith. At the end of Star Wars III, there are two Jedi, and two Sith. It's not hard to realize.
I always like the heroes who rise to the occasion more than the destined ones. Xenoblade, Dragon Age, Mass Effect (when the writers weren't trying to deify Shepard, anyway), the mooks you control in Fallout, they all produce that fun mix of a character who does it on their own but still shapes the world in the same way as someone destined to do so.
My problem with that theory is that.... well umm it sort of is sad. The Republic gets torn apart to be replaced with something evil and then that gets again torn asunder turning the nearly unified galactic government into a galaxy of many separate governments that'll no doubt turn on each other. So did force correct itself because the Galaxy was about to get TOO good for everyone so it had to reset things back to something like what we have now? are we doomed to nation states or future space governments to fight the same endless battles for resources and ideologues till of all of life gets snuffed out making all our endeavors meaningless!? ARE WE FUCKED FOREVER!?!?!??!?BehattedWanderer said:
And your right Shepard became a example of what Bob was talking about lazy writing.
I too think the whole Destiny thing is overdone and poorly utilized. I personally find it much more interesting when a hero rises to the task, not because he or she is destined to, but because he or she is called upon by chance and wants to do what is required of them.
Destiny in the Prequels? I guess it's about Anakin, then?
Anakin always struck me as the kind of character that you see when a cartoon villain wears a disguise. Like when it's painfully obvious which of these Mr.Krabs' is the evil robot doubleganger and which one the original.
Non-child Anakin is evil throughout the 2nd and 3rd movie, and the audience knows it all the time, but nobody in the story seems to realize.
Anakin always struck me as the kind of character that you see when a cartoon villain wears a disguise. Like when it's painfully obvious which of these Mr.Krabs' is the evil robot doubleganger and which one the original.
Non-child Anakin is evil throughout the 2nd and 3rd movie, and the audience knows it all the time, but nobody in the story seems to realize.
Eh. No one said destiny was always a force for good. In Star Wars, it was all about balance, not about things tending toward peaceful and benign. Equilibrium is the most desirable state of being for all things, including (presumably) non-sentient galactic forces that allow you to shoot lightning, toss around spaceships, and convince some questionably intelligent clones that these aren't the droids they're looking for. Whether it results in something sad or destructive isn't really the concern. It's like forest fires--yeah, the fire is bad, but it allows the forest a fresh supply of delicious ashy nutrients with the added benefit of more space for each tree to grow, while also clearing out some potentially harmful smaller plants that could be leeching water and minerals from the soil, which would make it harder for other plants to grow.Scorpid said:
Reading these forms makes me feel old. When I think of good destiny of Buffy the Vampires Slayer the show. When one slayer dies another girl is destined to be the next slayer. It showed that while some one is destined they do not always turn out for good like with Faith or the people pushing the destiny line are in there right mind like the Watchers Counsel.
XD Oh my God! I completely forgot about that scene from Young Frankenstein. Thank you.Hutzpah Chicken said:
I agree with Bob on this completely. The overuse of the destiny plot is so bad, I wouldn't be surprised if these shit writers and filmmakers use Joseph Campbell's Heroes Journey as masturbation material. This is I love The Lego Movie on so many levels; one of them being that it slams the overused concept of the destined hero and Hollywood's inability to stop using it. Franchises like Spider-Man, Star Trek, Superman, and TMNT deserve better than a bunch of no-talent fuckwits trying to get by on regurgitating the same plot many moviegoers are tired of.
The Lego Movie!
Lord Business: The Kragle, the most powerful super weapon is mine.
Lord Business: Ah! The Kragle!
Lord Business: Now my evil power will be unlimited! Can you feel me?!
Robot: I can feel you.
Lord Business: Wooh! Nothing's gonna stop me now!
Vitruvius: Wait! There is a prophecy.
Lord Business: Oh, now there's a prophecy.
Vitruvius: About the Piece of Resistance.
Lord Business: Oh, yes, the supposed missing Piece of Resistance that can somehow magically disarm the Kragle. Give me a break!
Vitruvius: One day a talented lass or fellow, a Special one with face of yellow, will make the Piece of Resistance found from its hiding refuge underground. And with a noble army at the helm, this Master Builder will thwart the Kragle and save the realm, and be the greatest, most interesting, most important person of all times. All this is true, because it rhymes.
Lord Business: Oh, well. That was a great inspiring legend that you made up.
Lord Business: The Special one? What a bunch of hippy dippy baloney.
-
Vitruvius: The prophecy's not true. I made it up.
Emmett: I?m not special?
Vitruvius: But what I?m about to tell you will change the course of history. [He dies.]
Vitruvius? Ghost: The only thing anyone needs to be special is to believe that they're special.
Lord Business: Ah! The Kragle!
Lord Business: Now my evil power will be unlimited! Can you feel me?!
Robot: I can feel you.
Lord Business: Wooh! Nothing's gonna stop me now!
Vitruvius: Wait! There is a prophecy.
Lord Business: Oh, now there's a prophecy.
Vitruvius: About the Piece of Resistance.
Lord Business: Oh, yes, the supposed missing Piece of Resistance that can somehow magically disarm the Kragle. Give me a break!
Vitruvius: One day a talented lass or fellow, a Special one with face of yellow, will make the Piece of Resistance found from its hiding refuge underground. And with a noble army at the helm, this Master Builder will thwart the Kragle and save the realm, and be the greatest, most interesting, most important person of all times. All this is true, because it rhymes.
Lord Business: Oh, well. That was a great inspiring legend that you made up.
Lord Business: The Special one? What a bunch of hippy dippy baloney.
-
Vitruvius: The prophecy's not true. I made it up.
Emmett: I?m not special?
Vitruvius: But what I?m about to tell you will change the course of history. [He dies.]
Vitruvius? Ghost: The only thing anyone needs to be special is to believe that they're special.
A few of us exist.KazeAizen said:
We simply learned long ago to never let the world learn of our sins.
OT: Well, I don't think I have much other input to put in reference to this episode, except for predicting that Bob is going to utterly hate the new Turtles movies. It'll be interesting to see which angle he takes with Star Wars next week, though.
I'm sure someone has already said this by now, but to be fair, Iron Man had some of the whole destiny thing going on, especially in the sequel.
I mean c'mon, Howard Stark laid out that entire city so that his future son could use his holographic computer as a blueprint to invent a new element that saves him from an affliction that couldn't possibly have been foretold?
But yeah, I agree. Forcing destiny where destiny don't belong ain't a smart idea.
I mean c'mon, Howard Stark laid out that entire city so that his future son could use his holographic computer as a blueprint to invent a new element that saves him from an affliction that couldn't possibly have been foretold?
But yeah, I agree. Forcing destiny where destiny don't belong ain't a smart idea.
I think one could make a pretty good argument that the most recent Captain America actually is a destiny movie. The foreshadowing of the shield with the garbage can lid, the implicit suggestion that it isn't just getting the super-soldier serum that makes someone heroic but that the serum is bringing out of the inner qualities of the person it's used on (which also leads to the Red Skull); arguably, Erskine even acts as a surrogate father figure, leaving his legacy to Steve Rogers on his premature death.
