The Big Picture: In Defense of "Booth Babes" (sort of)

[dartkun]

I tend to hate these style of The Big Picture episodes because they come off as overly preachy.

But saying those words means instantly I am a woman hater and I must hate any video about women equality. First off that is not true, but I take offense to "gaming community" and using it as a label on the whole amount of people that play video games.

It's just as bad as people saying "Oh the Muslim community must apologize for 9/11"

Oh so that mother of 4 who lives in Jordan has to apologize for something other people did that she had NO CONNECTION TO.

But just getting back onto the topic. This whole "You have to prove you're geek enough" is not exclusive to gaming culture, and it's not exclusive to males either.

So, I am a male cosplayer. I take my craft very serious and in my circle of cosplayers, the ratio of males to females is about 1:30. Yeah, I get judged, the women in my group don't think I can sew, the women in my group think I only cosplay to get attention and attract girls to have sex (replace girls with guys and that is the EXACT SAME THING women say they get insulted with, but instantly they will do the same towards men)

This is not an argument of gender, it's an argument about Hardcore vs Casuals. The hardcores will always make judgment on casuals. So who are the hardcores in gaming? Yeah at this time it's still generally males.

But then why does it always seem like males are discriminating on women? The problem is there are not very many hobbies that are dominant female.

But there are some, I lived with 3 girls growing up, so I took interest in more feminine things. I do Yoga on a daily basis, and I cannot tell you how many times it's been said "Oh, you do Yoga? I'll bet you didn't even know it has a spiritual component to it" from females all the time, and I have to "prove" that I know stuff.

It's casual vs hardcore and it exists in all facets of life.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Wow, not even 3 posts in and we already have White knight being tossed around. The gaming community already has problems with female representation and interaction as is and having these models may not make it better. While I will agree to classing up the joint and making the place more inclusive, I would argue that these models have a right to exist and that some people do treat them badly.

I don't have many solutions beside full blown reeducation on manners and how to treat women like people: replace the logo shirts with cosplays of characters (take emphasis away from the TnA and on to the actual game assets), have more security patrols around to intervene against harassment, keep alcohol well clear of the showplace and present entry to anyone drunk. These however are all solutions to outward symptoms and not internal issues as that issue is far more engrained and will require sunlight and interaction.

P.S. anyone who uses a white knight allegation loses the argument in my book as you are resorting to simple logical fallacies and prove yourself incapable of forming rational counteraugments. Also, if anyone wishes to put me on the spot for some fallacy or lack of information, do so and I will try to argue my point better.

1. Yeah because thats totally not what in reality is going on and gamers are just "throwing it around" like free pencils at the post office *facepalm*

2. It does have its fair share of problem not isolated to one gender against another or from one community to a specific gender, take your generilization somewhere else please. The models literally change nothing besides a very small demographic who subjectively object to them in more or less intelligent ways, nothing else.

3.We already have inclusively and not enough personalities in the community or good examples of it are being highlighted because its much easier to strawman and shout sexism towards already exclusive aspects to the community instead of yknow, looking for the good things and evaluating them instead like yknow intelligent people do .__.

4.Re-education? Notsureifseriousotrolling.jpg

5.Yeah lets treat the entire community that is already being generalized by idiots such as you and treat them even worse, wow what an amazingly good incentive to start shying away from their previous sexist selves...

I will commend you for putting me on the spot but a troll must be killed, so be it.

1) what I meant was that it only took two posts before someone pulled the white knight card out and derailed this discussion
2)problems should be fixed regardless of whether the issue is not isolated. As for the models, like I said, outward symptoms not main issue and the main issue that "we are not good with women" is still present given the Dragon's Crown debacle.
3) We do have inclusivity to some extent but it seems to be limited at most and championing for more people to come in should not be seen as bad even if we have this inclusivity that you speak of (we don't)
4)This is something I will admit to going overboard on but looking at general internet behavior when dealing with women's representation in games and media and it's either bile or trying to hold back the bile. Honestly, something must be done, re-education may be a bit much but something should be done.
5)It still is a common trend to fall back on these blanket statements without any sort of rational argument and I will call people out on it since it does not encourage discussion at all. In addition, cuddling people and saying that they are not sexist is not going to do anything, we have to call it when it's present and hold them accountable

Looks like youre still hell bent on fighting with shadows but ok.

I never recall ever saying or even suggesting/implying that we never should try to do anything about each individual case of it or where it is present, which it is, i know, but that its unhealthy in general to go in with that attitude from the start and find it where it doesnt exist.

It becomes what you make of it really, if you go in with that attitude of: Oh boy just look at this mess, the place smells of rape jokes and sexism, eurgh, disgusting, ok lets get out the brooms and see what we can do here.
Then obviously your own bias will guide you to see that and only that and never truly be challenged into another perspective or opinion and just like you are doing now, simply call "troll" on anyone who dares disagree or not completely agree.

The issue with this is that we have to keep this mindset as dealing with it on an individual instance is not going to fix it permanently. (i'm probably going to do something stupid but it was the only analogy to come in my head) it's like treating an AIDS patient, you can treat any possible illness the person will have because of the weak immune system but the main issue of the weak immune system exists and the person will not be fully in the clear until the immune system is restored. Same with this, we can deal with each little case of misogyny and harassment that comes our way but the root cause must be found and targeted if we want it to stop or at least be reduced in severity greatly.

I will argue that things are already being done but i cant objectively argue whether theyre enough or not, then again i hardly think it will ever go away but that doesnt mean each individual effort is futile of course.
I mean slavery has been gone for so many years now yet we still struggle with structured racism to this day and the fact that interracial marriage still somehow gets on peoples nerves (see the whole cherios commercial)

And so I will keep fighting, protesting, and discussing until the day I die or until the end goal is reached. I and a lot of people are probably not satisfied with the current state of things and want a resolution to come when this is no longer needed

No of course cuddling people saying that it doesnt exist is not the solution but neither is the reverse scenario where we put a megaphone to each persons ear and shout at the top of our lungs: My god cant you see all this sexism, why are you so blind, wake up you goddamn sheep of the patriarchy.

Balance in all things.

Well, we have been far too light on the issue: no bans on youtube over misogyny, no increased security against harassment in conventions, and no long term repercussions for any wrong behavior. We have to show a stronger hand to create an association that will limit this type of behavior: the less desirable you make something, the less likely someone does it.

 

[MB202]

I like the thumbnail of this episode, with Charlie Brown getting advice/psychological help from Lucy! XP

I also like how this episode is a nice follow-up to Jim Sterling's Jimquisition episode about a woman who DARED to write for video games and who DARED to have an opinion about video game get death threats about her kids. I.E., it's another episode that shouldn't have to exist but because gaming culture is in a major rut at the moment, some things need to be spelled out.

Incidentally, when Bob mentioned that looking good, presentable, and approachable is hard work, I was immediately reminded of Chris Hemsworth and how he had to change his entire diet and lifestyle to look as ripped as he was in Thor, and how he's considering leaving the Marvel Cinematic Universe simply because he doesn't want to conform to that lifestyle forever.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

Drinking game! Every time someone uses the term "white knight" in this thread. You people need some more catch phrases to make your reductive opinions not so repetitive.

Can I play a different drinking game where I take a drink every time someone passive aggressively bitches about people using the term white knight? I honestly think I'll get drunker that way.

Don't.

I did that once, and my liver still hasn't recovered.

 

[Lunar Templar]

*sighs*

we really are getting a LOT of 'common sense' content lately, it's getting kinda depressing.

What part is depressing?

That we are getting so much, xD or that some may actually need it?

Oh well. At least we got some interesting teasers from Bob about what he wants to do next. And Jim promised that if we're all good boys and girls.

He'll bring out his new dragon tongue! He found a way to combine the anticipation of Christmas, and the horror of Halloween! ;p

That so many need it, and that those that do need to hear this, are factually to fucking stupid to listen and change for the better.

 

[Towels]

I gotta say I'm in total agreement with Bob on this one. No one coerces these girls to wear chain-mail bikinis and stiletto gun heels to bring attention to games about women in chain-mail bikinis and stiletto gun heels. They do it willingly, and they like the positive attention. (Lines may get crossed, but then consequences ensue.) Its not like these models are drug dependent strippers. So what if the vapid hot chick knows little about the game she's selling? How many salesman at BestBuy really know anything about the tumultuous history of Azeroth when they have a huge sale on WoW expansions? So what if models wearing their nigh-fetishistic costumes is just a stepping stone to their dream job of modeling fabulous evening gowns on Project Runway? Yes, the models are indeed there to get attention and not necessarily there to indulge fanboys, but if Jocky McMoneybags can compose himself at macho car shows, then gamers can too.

And now to cause a real war: What are those lines, folks?

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Well, we have been far too light on the issue: no bans on youtube over misogyny, no increased security against harassment in conventions, and no long term repercussions for any wrong behavior. We have to show a stronger hand to create an association that will limit this type of behavior: the less desirable you make something, the less likely someone does it.

I'm sorry, did you say no bans on Youtube? So people haven't been having their videos taken down and their channels blown up on YT for ages for saying things that women don't want to hear? Convention bans not strong enough? You reckon? There are people out there not allowed to make fake necklaces because feminists said they weren't allowed and feminist rule is damn near law in some parts, it's getting bolder and bolder with not even hiding it's blatantly facist side these days.

The latest high profile one is The Amazing Atheist, but I assure you there are systems in place on YT that feminists have been abusing to outright censor and control those who respectfully argue against the dogma and have done for years. Whenever a feminist feels 'unsafe' you can bet your bollocks the draconian or downright facist moves happen, every time.

And here you are saying these powers don't go deep enough. We aren't hard enough on anti-dogmatists as it stands. But of course. Can't let opposing views be heard now can we? Womens safety has been our societies biggest concern since the dawn of time after all, why would that change just because we have silly things like rights?

I was more referring to commenters but thanks for the clear up. Commenters do need to have some restriction as they are more reactionary then they are conversing in the topic but Youtubers do have to have some common decency (I haven't watched the Amazing Atheist so I can't comment on him, this is a general statement for all on youtube)

 

[Wolfgang94]

Sorry I know this is tangential, but did anyone else disagree with Bob's remark about the game industry wanting to be viewed as mature but not doing any "growing up"? With many games presenting mature storylines & themes dealing with a plethora of themes from the horrors, the many worlds theory, or even the Iranian revolution. Is it fair to say this? I feel like the industry and those who cover it are in general taking steps and moving towards providing mature and thought-provoking content. So I feel it is unfair to judge the whole of the industry on some of its products. It should be like judging all of film on the output of the pornographic film studios. Sorry If I rambled just off night shift.

 

[Strain42]

I don't go to conventions. I do not have any real opinions, positive or negative on trade show models except that I think they should be allowed to help display games just as much as they should be allowed to display cars, boats, guns, or food, and that's getting into another debate.

What DOES bother me though is the whole thing gamers seem to do where it somehow becomes necessary for these women to somehow "prove" their gaming knowledge, and then proceeding to belittle them (pretty harshly too) for not being able to answer their questions.

A while back there was an article I read here on The Escapist, some of you might remember it, where they basically asked a bunch of the booth babes (I'm only using it here because they did) a series of "General game knowledge questions."

Now admittedly some of these were questions that even non-gamers may have learned at some point, just by seeing them in other forums of popular culture and stuff. Questions like "Who were the 3 original starter Pokemon?" and "Who is the main character of the Zelda series?" (followed by a rather sarcastic sounding "(Hint: It's not Zelda)"

But then some of the other questions were stuff like "What video game heroine invented the Gun Stiletto?" or "What recent shooter was an allegorical reworking of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged?"

I know people who HAVE played Bioshock who wouldn't have been able to answer that second one. And on the Heroine question these girls were guessing Lara Croft, which by the way SHOULD have been the answer to a general gaming question. Those are not "general game knowledge questions" those are questions you'd know if you were pretty strongly engrossed in the hobby and really cared enough to pay attention to that stuff. (There was a 5th question. I really wish I could remember what it was, but I know it wasn't something like "Who is Mario's Brother?" or something like that. It was another one only people who really spend time to learn about games would know)

And of course the general response to this video was just the gamers going "Ha ha ha, stupid women! How could they NOT know this stuff? They should be ashamed of themselves!"

I'm not here to white knight these women or stick up for booth babes...but you bet can bet your bottom dollar that I will point out when gamers are just being assholes to people over one of the silliest reasons I've ever heard. When did it become okay to point and laugh at someone just because they don't know who Bayonetta is?

Someone is not dumber or worth less than you just because they don't care as much about your hobby. Yes, hobby. I said it.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Wow, not even 3 posts in and we already have White knight being tossed around. The gaming community already has problems with female representation and interaction as is and having these models may not make it better. While I will agree to classing up the joint and making the place more inclusive, I would argue that these models have a right to exist and that some people do treat them badly.

I don't have many solutions beside full blown reeducation on manners and how to treat women like people: replace the logo shirts with cosplays of characters (take emphasis away from the TnA and on to the actual game assets), have more security patrols around to intervene against harassment, keep alcohol well clear of the showplace and present entry to anyone drunk. These however are all solutions to outward symptoms and not internal issues as that issue is far more engrained and will require sunlight and interaction.

P.S. anyone who uses a white knight allegation loses the argument in my book as you are resorting to simple logical fallacies and prove yourself incapable of forming rational counteraugments. Also, if anyone wishes to put me on the spot for some fallacy or lack of information, do so and I will try to argue my point better.

1. Yeah because thats totally not what in reality is going on and gamers are just "throwing it around" like free pencils at the post office *facepalm*

2. It does have its fair share of problem not isolated to one gender against another or from one community to a specific gender, take your generilization somewhere else please. The models literally change nothing besides a very small demographic who subjectively object to them in more or less intelligent ways, nothing else.

3.We already have inclusively and not enough personalities in the community or good examples of it are being highlighted because its much easier to strawman and shout sexism towards already exclusive aspects to the community instead of yknow, looking for the good things and evaluating them instead like yknow intelligent people do .__.

4.Re-education? Notsureifseriousotrolling.jpg

5.Yeah lets treat the entire community that is already being generalized by idiots such as you and treat them even worse, wow what an amazingly good incentive to start shying away from their previous sexist selves...

I will commend you for putting me on the spot but a troll must be killed, so be it.

1) what I meant was that it only took two posts before someone pulled the white knight card out and derailed this discussion
2)problems should be fixed regardless of whether the issue is not isolated. As for the models, like I said, outward symptoms not main issue and the main issue that "we are not good with women" is still present given the Dragon's Crown debacle.
3) We do have inclusivity to some extent but it seems to be limited at most and championing for more people to come in should not be seen as bad even if we have this inclusivity that you speak of (we don't)
4)This is something I will admit to going overboard on but looking at general internet behavior when dealing with women's representation in games and media and it's either bile or trying to hold back the bile. Honestly, something must be done, re-education may be a bit much but something should be done.
5)It still is a common trend to fall back on these blanket statements without any sort of rational argument and I will call people out on it since it does not encourage discussion at all. In addition, cuddling people and saying that they are not sexist is not going to do anything, we have to call it when it's present and hold them accountable

Looks like youre still hell bent on fighting with shadows but ok.

I never recall ever saying or even suggesting/implying that we never should try to do anything about each individual case of it or where it is present, which it is, i know, but that its unhealthy in general to go in with that attitude from the start and find it where it doesnt exist.

It becomes what you make of it really, if you go in with that attitude of: Oh boy just look at this mess, the place smells of rape jokes and sexism, eurgh, disgusting, ok lets get out the brooms and see what we can do here.
Then obviously your own bias will guide you to see that and only that and never truly be challenged into another perspective or opinion and just like you are doing now, simply call "troll" on anyone who dares disagree or not completely agree.

The issue with this is that we have to keep this mindset as dealing with it on an individual instance is not going to fix it permanently. (i'm probably going to do something stupid but it was the only analogy to come in my head) it's like treating an AIDS patient, you can treat any possible illness the person will have because of the weak immune system but the main issue of the weak immune system exists and the person will not be fully in the clear until the immune system is restored. Same with this, we can deal with each little case of misogyny and harassment that comes our way but the root cause must be found and targeted if we want it to stop or at least be reduced in severity greatly.

I will argue that things are already being done but i cant objectively argue whether theyre enough or not, then again i hardly think it will ever go away but that doesnt mean each individual effort is futile of course.
I mean slavery has been gone for so many years now yet we still struggle with structured racism to this day and the fact that interracial marriage still somehow gets on peoples nerves (see the whole cherios commercial)

And so I will keep fighting, protesting, and discussing until the day I die or until the end goal is reached. I and a lot of people are probably not satisfied with the current state of things and want a resolution to come when this is no longer needed

No of course cuddling people saying that it doesnt exist is not the solution but neither is the reverse scenario where we put a megaphone to each persons ear and shout at the top of our lungs: My god cant you see all this sexism, why are you so blind, wake up you goddamn sheep of the patriarchy.

Balance in all things.

Well, we have been far too light on the issue: no bans on youtube over misogyny, no increased security against harassment in conventions, and no long term repercussions for any wrong behavior. We have to show a stronger hand to create an association that will limit this type of behavior: the less desirable you make something, the less likely someone does it.

For that last part i really think you need to take a look at this:

and realize that bans, censorship and repercussions arent the only way to combat bad behaviour.

Then comes the inevitable problem of who actually has the right and who objectively can say "Yes this is blatant misogyny, yes this is blatant sexism" and pass judgement fairly on each case. The more desirable and rewarding you make the reverse alternative of course also helps, again i think you have the kind of "wrong" attitude towards the whole issue to begin with and that will be in turn, unhealthy for the debate. Instead of thinking in the way of the common "angry feminist" who wants to just crush, kill, destroy HULK SMASH the patriarchy and all misogyny, try instead of looking from the perspective from someone who wants to restore, help, educate and actually treat the person with AIDS for example instead of then pulling at your hair and going: Oh my god just look at this persons immune system we have to restore it fast holy fuck! while other more sane doctors around you go: Uhm..shouldnt we treat with chemotherapy and such? and in response theyll hear: No, screw that, im not looking for a treatment im looking for a cure, argh!!

Yeah at the same time we cant simply brush it under the rug and say "First amendment rights, Freedom of Speech!" because i dont believe that acting like a rude asshole and running naked around in the street slapping people in the face with a trout is really "freedom of speech" so to speak but neither do i believe that stupid people sometimes saying stupid things should inherently be "illegal" or put them in prison (like the whole League of Legends facebook post joke about school shooting).

Then also of course be wary of not censoring blindly in the name of the sacred inclusively and in the name of -insert ideology here- because i dont believe that the ends justify the means, and it never will.

I haven't watched the video yet but I have the basic idea in that it's more traditional conditioning instead of opulent: associate good behavior with rewards instead of just associating bad behavior with punishments. At the same time though, most of online infrastructure does not have systems to promote traditional conditioning through rewards and benefits; we only have opulent systems designed to discourage people and it could take a while for reward systems to be in place so we have to keep using bans and reprecussions until they are in place.

Going back to the AIDS example, treatments are a shortstop that can get tiring and expensive for the patient to keep taking but a cure would be able to prevent and restore all. Fight against the symptoms and help treat issues fine, but we best start taking the long road to a permanent solution to the issue of women in the gaming community or this will get both tiring for the members of the community and frustrating for the commenters.

As for the stupid people saying stupid things, perhaps it was a bit much to put the guy in jail (it was probably more a reaction to Sandy Hook) but letting him off easy with a slap on the wrist such as a suspension wouldn't have conditioned him against making stupid comments enough.

Blind censorship is not my goal, I say some pretty inflammatory things as well so that would be disadvantageous for me but we do have to start making it clear that derailing conversations with "white knight" naming and the like is undesirable.

P.S. this is a post note because it has nothing to do with the main conversation but adherence to a system of law if the law is broken for the sake of sticking to the means gets people no where. Sometimes, you must become evil to fight a greater evil but be ready to face judgement from the new world (any anime fans should get my reference and it's slightly stupid that i'm using anime but it has stuck with me)

 

[xaszatm]

snip

Snip

Is this really what you got from that video? That no matter what guys do, they will always be seen as misogynistic? Because that's not what I saw. Your Millage May Very and all that but the point in the video seemed to be that by going extreme in the opposite direction, we have mearly rerouted the problem rather than exterminating it.

In fact, the very idea of "We've tried two different ways, it's impossible to please you" doesn't quite sit with me. I saw this video as "well, the first time we tried something ended in something not altogether intended or well-liked, let's try something else instead!" Just because we try to address one problem doesn't mean all of the problems go away. Again, you're millage may very and I apologize for my inability to write coherent thoughts. Feel free to ask what the hell I just said if you're confused by my hazardous writing.

OT: So, according to you, the exclusion of models might have accidentally help give rise to the fake geek girl movement, or at the very least, led it to a more prominent spotlight. That is an interested thought, the main question, however, would then be "What should we do about video game expos to make them more inclusive?" I mean, the obvious answer would be to be more welcoming towards everyone and shaming and punishing people who do sexually inappropriate things towards females at these expos, but can there be anything else that could help? I don't know, but I'm throwing it out there for anyone else to answer.

 

[Omnicrom]

And so once again Lewis's Law is demonstrated. I'm actually almost gladdened that I'm not the only person in this thread sick and tired of this crap.

For those that don't know, Lewis Law is: the comments on any article about feminism justify feminism.

Or that feminism justifies itself. It's a logic cycle. We need feminism because it exists, and it exists because we need feminism.

I think that's a wonderful idea because it suggests that feminism causes the problems it seeks to remove by being there, and then when it shows up it creates more of the problems it seeks to remove. So hopefully it'll cannabilise itself(and we can see the start of that here with two opposing arguments both equally able to quote scripture, I mean dogma, I mean feminist theory, at the other).

And once it goes away, it will no longer justify it's own existence by existing to justify itself, and we can all just be happy and be productive. Happiness and productivity being two things feminism doesn't really do.

Can you do me a favor? Define what you think Feminism is, because it sounds like the feminism you describe here and the feminism I ascribe to are two very different things. I'd love it also if you could send me some examples of this malevolent feminism because I've never seen a feminist movement that's against happiness and productivity. I'm also interested in what the two opposing arguments you mention actually are.

 

[maninahat]

*SNIP*
The guys because they feel like they are being treated as horny teenagers who will buy something because of boobs *SNIP*

as a guy, I confirm that.
they do make me feel uncomfortable and manipulated.

and since they do contribute to the idea of "boys club" in video games, making women uncomfortable too, I do think not having them would be for the best.

Well the only real way to win is not to play, if you dont want to buy a certain product because of its choice of marketing and promotion, you are always free to do so

Of course then youll have to have equal respect for those who DO make the choice based on that to buy in to the product and its promotion.

Boycotting stuff can be too drastic. If I have my heart set on a product, I shouldn't have to avoid it just to prove to some dick head in marketing that their horrible promotional methods don't work for me. Especially when I can, instead, simply complain about the method of promotion and try to discourage it.

SO no. There are not just two ways about something. And also, if I find something morally or socially reprehensible, I don't see why I should be fine with others being okay with it. I should be able to challenge them - not over their tastes (*liking* a booth babe or an Ayn Rand novel is fine) but over their acceptance/dismissal of the negative aspect to that thing they like.