The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

[n00beffect]

Good show, Bob! Finally, a person with some common sense.

 

[Frank_Sinatra_]

SNIP

Wow, generalizing. How very mature.
You apparently haven't been listening to any of the more rational and calm complaints.
Like this, [http://www.themetagames.com/2012/03/why-you-enjoy-art-and-one-problem-with.html?m=1] or this. [http://www.blueinkalchemy.com/2012/03/21/the-end-of-shepard/]

 

[Laughing Man]

Hmmm the ME3 thing really is quiet the thing isn't it? Seems like everyone should have an opinion, so here's mine. What we get and what we got is what we will get and what we got. If BW decided to leave the game as it is then that is THEIR decision, it is also their right, it is their property their IP and the flipside of that is that we as the consumer of their product are allowed to ***** and moan and complain.

Of course how much you complain and moan will vary depending upon how retarded you really are, yes you can say they falsely claimed that the game would deliver an ending worth of the multi choice nature, an ending that would give you five dollar bills and pull hooker off the street for you whilst feeding you cotten candy, and because they didn't deliver I am gonna sue your arse.

Doing that not only lowers yourself but lowers everyone who in anyway has anything to do with gaming, seriously, yes the ending may be crap it may not do what YOU wanted and the variants of it may all be the same with a few little choices that have no real bearing on your actions but really did the crap ending in anyway lessen the many hours of 'fun' you had playing the game and its two prequels?

On the other hand if Bioware decided to release a DLC paid for or otherwise it is your choice to pay and download it, yeah it's a wanky move and some may even start conspiracies about how they made the original endings crap to deliberately force their fan base to download the good endings, but despite that would having that wonderful ending suddenly make the 'fun' you had playing the games any more fun? No all it would do is give you a nice wrap up and that's that.

It's Biowares right to do what they want with their IPs
It's your right to moan about, complain about and choose not to support them

but at the end of the day you get what you're given and that's that deal with it or moan, and if your especially moronic try suing someone.

Oh and I've seen two folk saying that DLC for Fallout 3 changing the ending of that game has set a precedent. That's bull, it had f*ck all to do with changing the stories ending, ala the big ME3 controversy, and more to do with the general community wanting to be able to continue playing after they finished the main storyline.

 

[Echopunk]

I agree that it is ridiculous to file a complaint with the FTC over a video game ending, and that it is also insane that some people want to return their open (and completed) video game for a full refund, but the blame does not fall solely on the "spoiled self entitled fans."

Part of the problem is the existence of DLC in the first place. Back in the era of "this is your cartridge, it is all you have" it would have been incomprehensible to expect a developer to make alterations to a game that had already been published.

What changed? Well, game developers decided to make alterations to games that had already been published. Map packs, new weapons, characters and even entire quest lines are there for the taking if you want to spend the money.

If a company wants to generate extra content with mostly existing resources and do so without the added cost of pressing, packaging, and general marketing, I think that is just good business.

The developers were the ones who decided that their products were not static, or even finished in some cases. Why should we argue with them? Heck, when we see something that clearly looks unfinished, like the dialog in Dragon Age that basically said "Buy DLC to read what I really say on this line", don't we expect the company to step in with some more content down the road?

To me, ME3's ending was ill fitting and unfinished. I think the only reason so many people believe there should be a DLC epilogue or ending revision is that it feels like the type of thing this company has done before.

 

[z121231211]

There should be a new rule, you cannot discuss the outcry to the ME3 ending until you've played through all 3 games and saw the ending.

Seriously there has to be something wrong when the majority of people who have played through all them are in outrage, yet the majority of the people who have never even played the games go about saying they're being entitled fanboys.

 

[boag]

I will agree to the following.


The people that asked for their money back from Childs Play are morons.

Artists are free to seek their personal interpretation.


I will not agree to the following.

Consumers/Fans should not complain about what they purchased.

Artists can do anything they want RISK FREE.



Things I would like to point out.

Generalizations are bad

Consumers asking for a change in the product does not mean OMG ARTISTIC INTEGRITY OF IDEOGAMES RUINED FOREVER.

Judging the outcome of a game before playing/finishing the game is as stupid as the fox news reporters that said ME1 was a sex simulator without playing the fucking game.

Movie bob can be very near sighted sometimes.

 

[SnakeoilSage]

Really there's nothing new any of us can add to the whole debate. Very, very few of us are going to come out of this with some kind of closure. Let's just let it die.

Instead, let's talk about Dick Cheney, and how he got a heart transplant when by medical standards he's far too old to qualify for one and there are much younger and more needy patients in desperate need of said organ replacement. They were probably further up the list than he was, too. How about that?

 

[Klitch]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are totally off the mark their about da Vinci. Let us say that da Vinci was paid by the church to make the last supper. If the church does not like they way they made the last supper than they can have him change it. da Vinci is Bioware. EA is the church. The consumer (you) are the individual who goes to the church. You are NOT the church. (You) did not put in any money to commission ME3. (You) put in money to purchase a copy of the art to make up for the money that the Church (EA) spent into commissioning the game. You may make complaints about the art, but in the end (EA) has the last say, not (You).

So nobody pre-ordered Mass Effect 3? For some reason I seem to remember doing that...

At no point did I say that consumers should get final say over artistic content (or any product for that matter), but let's continue with the da Vinci analogy. Say he was commissioned to paint the Mona Lisa and behaved like a modern game company. He would triple his agreed-upon time frame after being paid (pre-orders for Duke Nukem Forever?)...well he actually did that one, paint a picture of a a different woman (false marketing), give you the "finished" painting and then charge for him to finish drawing the face (DLC), and then make you re-purchase the painting after you have seen it three times (DRM). The man would have been lynched.

I'm sorry but no amount of "get over it" or "move on" or "geez put your energy into something important (by my definition of the word)" is going to make me feel like it's alright for game companies to hold 100% of the rights for their content. They cannot flat-out lie to us and then not expect us to take it personally.

My gamer friend, you are still missing the key point I made. You are not the comissioner. You did not put in money for the creation of the product. You put in money for the copy of the product so the real commissioner (EA) can make a profit from the artist. EA paid Bioware X sum of cash, credit, etc. to make a video game. Bioware made the video game so consumers would purchase it and EA would get X amount of cash from it. At no point in time have you, the consumer, put money directly into Bioware to make their games....unless your a stock-holder.

Where exactly do you think money from pre-orders goes if not into development costs? So if I own a single stock in Bioware/EA (I don't) I'm allowed to dictate how the game should be made but if I don't have any stock, I just have be resigned with being worked over and mistreated and be satisfied? What kind of logical sense does that make? What about this consumer-funded Double Fine game, should the fans get complete creative control just because they paid the development costs (I say hell no). I'm sorry but whether you paid your money before or after the game was put in stores is not the sole deciding factor that determines if you have any rights to the product you pay for.

And consumer rights is a real thing. There is no medium where the producers/developers have complete control over their products and actions. As I've said before, my big hangup is the outright lies in the advertising. Consumers are protected by law from crap like that. From any legal standpoint the FTC complaint is justified, though I think it's more of a publicity stunt than a real motion.

Producer-consumer relationships are just that, relationships. Producers have an obligation to provide their consumers the product that they promise and consumers have the obligation of paying an agreed-upon sum. This doesn't change just because somebody shouts "art." Am I allowed to pay Bioware $30 instead of $60 because I didn't like the ending? No. Are they allowed to make explicit promises (with full knowledge of their falsity) about the game and then not keep them? For some bizarre reason, yes. This is wrong.

Instead, let's talk about Dick Cheney, and how he got a heart transplant when by medical standards he's far too old to qualify for one and there are much younger and more needy patients in desperate need of said organ replacement. They were probably further up the list than he was, too. How about that?

Yeah, I didn't get that. He managed to survive for decades without a heart. Why does he suddenly need one now?

 

[rickthetrick]

Aliens huh? Well whatever I guess. I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never see the gritty original source material ever brought to life so this doesn't bother me.

Ya know the thing that people should really be worried about with mass effect is how devs are trending towards holding endings for ransom. I can't prove that this was their original intention but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. And the sad part is I'll buy it just like I did Broken Steel.

 

[guitarsniper]

I totally see where Bob is coming from here. I definitely wish that Bioware HAD made some different choices, but now that the game's here, I don't think that they should change it. Next thing we know, people will be clamoring for a rewrite of the Bible because Jesus dies too early and it's sad [/hyperbole]

 

[Najal]

Sorry, but I don't see the difference. They sure want it to be different (to change it), and they think they [the fans] know the way to make it better than them [Bioware].

Give a bad writer a good storyboard and he will come up with a good story told poorly. My point is that there is a difference between the events that happen in a story, and the skill with which that story is told. A lot of the ME fans would be fine with the events of the ending, broadly speaking, as long as they didn't conflict with previous canon, pull thematic right angles at the last minute and leave the final life-or-death fate of major characters dangling on vague implications.

I also don't like this idea that the writers (or artists in general) are these meek, spineless pushovers who will bend to the whims of the fans. If it truly is a work of art, the artist should stand by it and say no, this is how i made it and I'm not changing it.

 

[SpaceBat]

It's fans bitching about false advertising.

I can't believe people are still falling for this shit. Nearly every company does this and people still get shocked and upset when a game doesn't appear to be what was promised.

I find it amusing that after ragging on Transformers and god knows how many other geek things that were done wrong, Bob defends Bioware when they step wrong.

I'm still not entirely sure what they did wrong, apart from doing something that nearly every single developer does (false advertising/marketing). I disliked the ending immensely, but I will never join the group that demands the ending to be changed. Complaining (fully justified) and demanding/threatening and whatnot are two completely different things.

I should do an FTC to Bethesda one of these days.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Yes, as in "We create the world for you to live in, you get to choose how you want to live in it". We are the equal creators over Mass Effect as we always decide how the story ends, as long as the developers have created said possibility. We have the option of choice, not creation. Claiming that we get the right to change whatever we want about the game by filing complaints is foolish.


Just watch this:
http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-episode-68-crass-effect

 

[Wicky_42]

...
To bow to public pressure is something no one that creates something should aspire to.

Under those terms, why can't we have Romeo and Juliet 2? or Kill Bill Vol 3? I believe the end of Fight Club was not epic enough, so we should all force Palahniuk to make a sequel. I also believe Indiana Jones wasn't clear enough, so George Lucas should work on a 5th one. Why not? It worked great with us fans clamoring for a better ending for Watchmen. Someone already mention how this public lynching was getting close to the villain of Misery, which sounds like a fair comparison too...

1) Romeo and Juliet had a strong, if tragic, ending.
2) Kill Bill Vol 2 wrapped up the story conclusively, with almost all the characters dead.
3) Fight Club had said its piece; the character's arc had reached an end.
4) George Lucas has already taken liberties with his Star Wars films - I think he was the wrong person to invoke with your strawman-ship
5) Watchman's ending was changed from the comic, and as far as I can see was the better for it for the purposes of the big screen.

If you notice, none of those (well, maybe bar the Watchmen thing - some comic fans did want to see a giant psychic squid, but then that's comic fans for you) do actually have any sort of public support; they are mostly examples of things that ended well.

Mass Effect 3 is not one of those.

You may also notice that all the example you chose are non-interactive films.

Mass Effect 3 is not one of those.

Your strawmen are weak, your protestations weaker. As has been posted and re-posted before, history is full of creative decisions being aided and directed by feedback; why should Bioware be any different?

 

[Krantos]

You know what I won't be doing? Throwing a fit because some portion of the internet disagrees with me.

Listen Bob. Being opposed to the whole ME3 fiasco is fine. That's your opinion. But you really had no reason to get this upset about it. You are not tied to BioWare. You are not actually even in the Games Industry.

"Crybaby hissy fit." Nice to see you're being reasonable about this.

I read a proverb one time that said this: "A calm word stills an argument, but an angry one stirs it up."

Do I think that ME fans have taken this whole thing a bit far? Yeah, I do. However, I'm more irritated by the response from other people not involved. It's rage being thrown onto rage, it's tiresome, at the least. Depressing as Fuck, at the worst.

Is this really all the Internet age has brought us? Are we really so incapable of having calm discourses about things? Why is it whenever one group does something we disagree with are we have to respond with equal or greater outrage, regardless of whether we're directly affected?

And the topics we choose. Starving children? No. North Korea's satellite launch? Not a chance.

The ending of Mass Effect 3? Hell yes! People being upset about the people upset about the ending of Mass Effect 3? Absolutely.

....
.......
....

Really?

Really?

 

[lacktheknack]

SNIP

Wow, generalizing. How very mature.
You apparently haven't been listening to any of the more rational and calm complaints.
Like this, [http://www.themetagames.com/2012/03/why-you-enjoy-art-and-one-problem-with.html?m=1] or this. [http://www.blueinkalchemy.com/2012/03/21/the-end-of-shepard/]

And those I simply cannot get. I am physically incapable of seeing why being merely frustrated at the end of anything - even something you've sunk hundreds of hours into - causes this much rage and fury.

Eh... I'm too damn calm, I guess.

 

[Brian Hendershot]

Really there's nothing new any of us can add to the whole debate. Very, very few of us are going to come out of this with some kind of closure. Let's just let it die.

Instead, let's talk about Dick Cheney, and how he got a heart transplant when by medical standards he's far too old to qualify for one and there are much younger and more needy patients in desperate need of said organ replacement. They were probably further up the list than he was, too. How about that?

There is one thing we can add (or more likely reiterate). Everyone needs to calm the fuck down because it is just a game.

Anyhow, how could Dick Cheney even get a heart transplant when he doesn't have a heart. Because ya know...he is one of Satan's minions..ha...ha.

On a serious note, it just seems like another Steve Jobs thing. More then likely he applied to multiple organ transplant lists and one of those lists had a short waiting time. He could only do that because he has money and power. I think that's kinda sad.

 

[Scarim Coral]

As typical whiners gonna whine, if they aren't whining about the ME3 ending, they're going to whine to those who disagree with them! Sorry but at this point I just can't take the ME3 fans seriosuly without them coming off so hurt and complaining about it! (Oh you can dimiss my opinion seeing how I have never played the games but I'm read about the game universe, characters and seen the endings.)

I kinf of find it abit hypocrite from Bob since I still recall how butthurt he was when the film The Expendables sold more than Scott Pilgrim Vs The World.

Af for the turtles, yes I am annoyed with the changes so I have no expectation toward it.

 

[rickthetrick]

Really there's nothing new any of us can add to the whole debate. Very, very few of us are going to come out of this with some kind of closure. Let's just let it die.

Instead, let's talk about Dick Cheney, and how he got a heart transplant when by medical standards he's far too old to qualify for one and there are much younger and more needy patients in desperate need of said organ replacement. They were probably further up the list than he was, too. How about that?

Yeah but not everyone can have a wing added on to a hospital for getting that heart.
It's all about money power and connections my friend. Is it fair? Of course not, but we can't really do anything about it.....kinda like mass effect three lol.

 

[Saxnot]

by this logic, i should be allowed to create a saw remake which consists entirely of a steady shot of a field of grass where nothing happens for 2 hours.

what? you buy the ticket, you take the risk, right? don't try to limit my artistic freedom!

artistic integrity is important, true, but when you're working on a series consistency is just as important. a good sequel manages to keep what's good and improve what's bad about the previous iteration. in that regard, the ending of ME3 throws all consistency overboard to create something mediocre at best. that isn't artistic freedom, that's artistic failure

Yes. You absolutely can. Don't expect to be very successful, but that's totally your prerogative if you get the go ahead from the company to make that movie.

That's not the issue. The issue is people not liking something and thinking that the reasonable response is to act like a bunch of five-year olds and demand other people change for them.

I didn't like the third Matrix movie.

I got over it, and I don't watch it anymore.

I didn't like the ending to Mass Effect 3.

I complained, got over it, and I probably wont buy any more Mass Effect games.

You see where I'm going with this?

I'm not going to demand they change the ending, to Mass Effect or the Matrix. That is simply not my call to make. And it's not the fans call either.

yes, but it's not that simple. the point i was trying to make is that artists don't exist in a vacuum. especially when you're talking about the ending to a series, it is expected of an artist that they at least try to stay consistent with their earlier work. this is not an unreasonable expectation, and when you break that expectation, you should have good reason for doing so.

what the ME3 witing team did is look at what made their game stand out, what the elements were that made so many people love it and go 'well, f*ck that, imma go make an ending where the colours are different.'
ending can be dissapointing, sure, but at least they are usually consistent with what came before. if they're not, that's reasonable grounds for complaint.

with regards to changing the ending: changing it at this point would not help much, the ending they shipped is the one that will make the lasting impression. it might be a point of artistic integrity to at least try to do right by their own franchise though