The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

[Wicky_42]

long snip...

In short: Yes.

Because "desire" and "want" have different connotations than "demand". Demand implies a sense of urgency and anger, that you feel injustice because you DESERVE a new ending. Desire implies "Meh, I wish the ending would have been better, but oh well. That's how it goes."

Maybe the fans did deserve a better ending? I think people deserved a better ending that the third Matrix film brought about, but where-as films tend to be a finished article, games are more mutable and there's the prospect that things can change. That aside, attacking a host of people because they used the wrong verb (or were merely assigned said verb) seems to be kinda petty when you agree with the source of the complaint.

 

[Taunta]

Even in his own Game-Overthinker show he stated he has not played the games, nor does he know what the endings are. THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM BOB! You lack context and investment and can easily stand on your damn soapbox and act as a superior spewing pretentious dribble.

So Bob, shut up, play the games, see the endings and then voice your opinion, otherwise your input is worthless on the matter.

You're missing the point. Whether or not he would like the ending doesn't matter. It's not about liking the ending, it's about crossing that boundary between creator and audience and feeling like you DESERVE a new ending.

That's what the entire segment about TMNT is about. He knows he's probably not gonna like the new treatment of it, but is he going to fly into a rage because this is not the movie that he is entitled to? No. The artist isn't here to please you.

There is a line between being displeased with the ending and feeling like you deserve something else.

I can think of one major difference between the TMNT situation and ME3 situation. You got to discover what you'd hate about TMNT before you paid for it. It's a lot easier to be equanimous about a failed IP when you haven't already paid a great deal of money on it based on false promises. If you haven't paid any money for a product, then you are not a consumer and thus can obviously not claim consumer rights. Once you've paid for something, the artist does have an obligation to you. You can argue whether they should or not (I'd be interested in seeing that debate) but according to the current legal code, they do.

Would I have liked the Green Lantern movie (I never saw it)? Nope. The difference was they showed us the crappy CGI and stupid costume before I had to pay for a movie ticket. And yet Bob complained about that movie ad nauseam (I don't mean to pick on Bob, but I'm using this as an example). Why when the creators show you their product is crap and you pay for it, are you allowed to complain about it being crap, but when the creators lie to you and hide the crap in a box and you buy it, to complain is to be a petulant child?

No one is trying to take away your right to complain about it. You are perfectly able to complain about it without being a petulant child. It's the difference between "Well that sucked" and "Well that sucked, do it again! And better this time!" It's like figuratively being the antagonist from Stephen King's Misery.

Anyways, popular opinion is that the entirety of ME3 was not crap. Just the ending.

 

[Klitch]

Well said, Bob. This reply is a drop in the ocean, but I can't remain silently complicit while a vocal minority brings so much negative attention to the gaming community as a whole. In so many of these arguments about ME3, defenders of Retake Mass Effect try to discredit opponents and/or elevate off-the-cuff comments about a game that is IN AN UNFINISHED STATE to the level of official advertising or some sort of legally binding agreement (FTC & BBB complaints, Amazon.com refunds? Really?), rather than address the issues that folks like you bring up.

The thing that really baffles me is that outside of professional reviews, I haven't heard what the community at large feels about the actual -game- portion of the game. Is the ending honestly so terrible that it makes 10/20/30/etc. hours of gameplay not fun?

I'm not so sure about us being the minority here (Poll 1 [http://social.bioware.com/poll.php?user=1183972&poll_id=29101])(Poll 2 [http://social.bioware.com/poll.php?user=633606&poll_id=28989]).

As to your last question, unfortunately I would say yes. The defining point of the entire Mass Effect trilogy was that you got to shape the galaxy with your actions and choices. This is literally THE driving force behind the game right up until the last 10 minutes of a 100+ hour journey where every decision you have ever made is rendered moot and you push one of three buttons to get one of three differently colored, but otherwise identical, cutscenes with no closure, no explanation, and no resolution (not to mention numerous newly-introduced plot holes).

To be clear the first 99% of ME3 is, in my book, one of the greatest games I've ever played, but I literally can't bring myself to go back and play any of the trilogy again knowing that nothing that I do matters in the slightest and every mystery and plot arc that I start will forever remain unfinished. This is a sentiment I've heard reflected in many places. I don't want a new ending; you can't un-write what has been written. I'm disappointed that this is how what is arguably the greatest RPG series ever made had to end, but I can deal with that. The lies, though...

 

[Faerillis]

Made it to 3:24, when it became clear that rather than actually looking into your mistakes, and apologizing for them, you simply doubled down on them.

Bob, I know you've received at least 2 pieces of fanmail that have explained how wrong you are about the reasons behind the "Retake Mass Effect" movement; and how erecting and attacking this Strawman is despicable. Glad to see you paid attention Bob...

Well, Bob, until recently your shows seemed fine but now you've made it utterly clear that you aren't worth a damn. Thanks for the videos that have entertained me for the last 2-1/2 years, because I for one won't be continuing watching your shows.
It's amazing that someone who has a show called "The Big Picture", could miss it so thoroughly.

 

[Taunta]

long snip...

In short: Yes.

Because "desire" and "want" have different connotations than "demand". Demand implies a sense of urgency and anger, that you feel injustice because you DESERVE a new ending. Desire implies "Meh, I wish the ending would have been better, but oh well. That's how it goes."

Maybe the fans did deserve a better ending? I think people deserved a better ending that the third Matrix film brought about, but where-as films tend to be a finished article, games are more mutable and there's the prospect that things can change. That aside, attacking a host of people because they used the wrong verb (or were merely assigned said verb) seems to be kinda petty when you agree with the source of the complaint.

And I say fans don't deserve anything. The artist(s) doesn't/don't exist to please the fans. They're there to tell a story, and if they don't like that story, then tough. You take it, you complain about it a little bit, and then you move on with your life.

This is probably personal bias as a Creative Writing major, but I don't think diction choice is petty at all. In writing anything, the tone changes entirely based on what kind of diction you choose. It's like how the tone of your voice can change a joke into a rude remark, except it's the tone of your words. I think perhaps there wouldn't be so much backlash towards how "entitled" some people are if their tone was less defiant and self-important.

Anyways, I'm probably not going to change your mind though, so I can agree to disagree.

 

[malestrithe]

Every time I come back to this topic, I finding myself respecting George Lucas even more. Mass Effect 3 creators cowtowed after a few weeks of protests, no matter how justified. Lucas has been hearing this Han Fired First bullshit for 15 years and he has not budge an inch. It feels like Lucas has an artist's integrity and makes his vision all the more credible.

As for the rest, Retake Mass Effect 3 people need to stop this whiny 4-Chan nonsense with everyone that disagrees with them. The debate is over because Bioware cowtowed and acquiesced to your whiny demands. You keep forgetting that you won this particular argument and everytime you go after someone that disagrees, you taint your victory.

In other words, quit being Sore winners. Quit being one of those people that complain about winning.

 

[Negatempest]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are totally off the mark their about da Vinci. Let us say that da Vinci was paid by the church to make the last supper. If the church does not like they way they made the last supper than they can have him change it. da Vinci is Bioware. EA is the church. The consumer (you) are the individual who goes to the church. You are NOT the church. (You) did not put in any money to commission ME3. (You) put in money to purchase a copy of the art to make up for the money that the Church (EA) spent into commissioning the game. You may make complaints about the art, but in the end (EA) has the last say, not (You).

So nobody pre-ordered Mass Effect 3? For some reason I seem to remember doing that...

At no point did I say that consumers should get final say over artistic content (or any product for that matter), but let's continue with the da Vinci analogy. Say he was commissioned to paint the Mona Lisa and behaved like a modern game company. He would triple his agreed-upon time frame after being paid (pre-orders for Duke Nukem Forever?)...well he actually did that one, paint a picture of a a different woman (false marketing), give you the "finished" painting and then charge for him to finish drawing the face (DLC), and then make you re-purchase the painting after you have seen it three times (DRM). The man would have been lynched.

I'm sorry but no amount of "get over it" or "move on" or "geez put your energy into something important (by my definition of the word)" is going to make me feel like it's alright for game companies to hold 100% of the rights for their content. They cannot flat-out lie to us and then not expect us to take it personally.

My gamer friend, you are still missing the key point I made. You are not the comissioner. You did not put in money for the creation of the product. You put in money for the copy of the product so the real commissioner (EA) can make a profit from the artist. EA paid Bioware X sum of cash, credit, etc. to make a video game. Bioware made the video game so consumers would purchase it and EA would get X amount of cash from it. At no point in time have you, the consumer, put money directly into Bioware to make their games....unless your a stock-holder.

Where exactly do you think money from pre-orders goes if not into development costs? So if I own a single stock in Bioware/EA (I don't) I'm allowed to dictate how the game should be made but if I don't have any stock, I just have be resigned with being worked over and mistreated and be satisfied? What kind of logical sense does that make? What about this consumer-funded Double Fine game, should the fans get complete creative control just because they paid the development costs (I say hell no). I'm sorry but whether you paid your money before or after the game was put in stores is not the sole deciding factor that determines if you have any rights to the product you pay for.

And consumer rights is a real thing. There is no medium where the producers/developers have complete control over their products and actions. As I've said before, my big hangup is the outright lies in the advertising. Consumers are protected by law from crap like that. From any legal standpoint the FTC complaint is justified, though I think it's more of a publicity stunt than a real motion.

Producer-consumer relationships are just that, relationships. Producers have an obligation to provide their consumers the product that they promise and consumers have the obligation of paying an agreed-upon sum. This doesn't change just because somebody shouts "art." Am I allowed to pay Bioware $30 instead of $60 because I didn't like the ending? No. Are they allowed to make explicit promises (with full knowledge of their falsity) about the game and then not keep them? For some bizarre reason, yes. This is wrong.

Your "say" in the whole thing is to never purchase from them again. It is that simple and your power with other people's power would prove how bad their choice was. Again, your pre-order, was nothing more than the real compnay that commissioned the art to get his/her money from the consumer faster. The money you pay as the consumer is to purchase a copy of the art/product so that the "artist/maker" does not lose money from their creation. In no way do you the consumer lose anywhere near the same amount of money as the artist or commissioner if a product does not sell well.

The Doublefine Kickstarter is one of the hand-full of examples of a product that is being commissioned by the consumers. EA, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Activision, Sega, Konami, all of those producers are not putting in money into that project, the consumers are. This is an example of consumers being the ones commissioning a project.

In no way 99.9% in the making of ME3 did a consumer commission ME3, that was all done by EA and possibly Bioware themselves.

 

[Aisaku]

While Bob may be completely right on the legal side of things, he is definitely missing the big picture here.


1. Videogames are not movies, they're not books. DLC set the precedent for games to change and divert from their original form.

2. What I am arguing as a fan is that this is no the ending that the series deserve. And given the precedent of DLC, Bioware could very well go back and revisit it. I'm not asking for Bioware to do exactly as I want, but for them to meet their own standards.

3. Good or bad Bioware and ME3 is getting an unprecedented amount of publicity over this. This is something that's making them money, money they wouldn't have made otherwise if they had gone a more conventional way. Even Bob's benefiting from standing on this side of the debate. How can you divorce this from the decision to make the ending so inflaming?


If authorial intent is sacrosanct, what intent can we derive from the endings as a whole? Once you realize that all the permutations amount to killing off all the major players as well as the galaxy around them?. Is it not to leave the invested audience with a gaping wound?

In a movie this would be fine, after all it wasn't you who shaped the main character, all the characters and the world around them under the author's control. Even if you identify with the character,it's easier to let go. This is not the case with Mass Effect.

It may be unprecedented, but once you look at all the forces involved, what Bioware did is not unlike an author holding a beloved character hostage for publicity, larger monetary gains and getting the invested readership to pay ransom.

How can you not find that despicable I do not know.

 

[soren7550]

Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

EDIT: Before you go crying about how you're sick of people complaining, I think I should point you to THIS. [http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-role-of-the-player]

Pretty much this.

It's not that the ending was bad and fans are upset, it's the fact that BioWare blatantly and outright lied about what was going to happen, as late as January of 2012 when they would have clearly known that what they were saying wasn't in the game. Added with the fact the last ten minutes of the game just shit all over three games, three books, and several comics worth of lore and choices, and you're going to get some miffed people.

Fans are just asking for what they were promised and paid for.

 

[Sougo]

I'm not afraid of Micheal Bay changing the origin story of the turtles.

I'm afraid of him having the turtles being chased around the rest of the movie by the army and explosions. And the concept of Japan, martial arts, foot soldiers and ninjas being ignored altogether.

 

[Warachia]

3:15 - 3:30 I call BULLSHIT bob, you DID complain several times in your reviews about how things were and how/to what they needed to be changed.
That aside, it's not an expectation when they tell me something will be in the game, and then I buy it, to find out that it isn't in there.

 

[Aisaku]

3:15 - 3:30 I call BULLSHIT bob, you DID complain several times in your reviews about how things were and how/to what they needed to be changed.
That aside, it's not an expectation when they tell me something will be in the game, and then I buy it, to find out that it isn't in there.

He's just playing the audience, as is Bioware. *sigh*

 

[Sylveria]

Bob, you will whine, complain, and demand them to fix it to your expectations. Do you know why you will? Cause its what you've done with every movie based on things of your fandom ever since you started your shows here. You're not above the nerd-rage, you're the embodiment of it.

 

[Warachia]

Every time I come back to this topic, I finding myself respecting George Lucas even more. Mass Effect 3 creators cowtowed after a few weeks of protests, no matter how justified. Lucas has been hearing this Han Fired First bullshit for 15 years and he has not budge an inch. It feels like Lucas has an artist's integrity and makes his vision all the more credible.

Doesn't just changing it in the first place after he finished it already taint his "artistic vision"? I find it a little odd how you're perfectly fine with Lucas doing these things, yet not fine with other people, if we kept it specifically to how Lucas wanted the movies some would be surprisingly different, as some of the actors lines were added by the actors themselves, and the director (who wasn't george lucas) decided it fit better.

 

[MarlonBlazed]

Mutants and Masses

MovieBob goes into detail about the difference between artists and fans.

Watch Video

Really, the fans aren't mad or outraged because the ending isn't living up to the hype.. it's just a very hollow, poorly written, plot hole everywhere ending that even asks for you to buy more of their DLC at the end.

Also Bob- when we do state our concerns and give criticism to Bioware.. guess what? They shut their forums on us. Closing the threads so we can't state how we feel overall, our opinions being shunned and ignored. So overall we not only get a bad ending to where it defiles everything Mass Effect stood for but Casey Hudson makes excuses and Bioware doesn't want any feedback like they said they'll be happy to receive.

Why does nobody listen to you, why are there still people on this very forum still defending this trite when all the facts are in front of them... Are we all taking crazy pills or what?

I wish they would stop saying "SunshineandRainbows", "butt-hurt" and "fan-boy's", these people run words into the ground faster then an episode of HIMYM.

Anyway let me weigh in on this since unlike everyone here defending the rights of artists I actually am one... See your our meal ticket you own us like any boss, if you go these lengths to demand something it's my duty to oblige, we need you and you don't need us... It's just that simple, stop defending expendable pawns. Also to say this will somehow kneecap our creativity is very wrong mainly because YOU DEMAND THAT WE BE CREATIVE!

Creators should be free to work on their creations and the consumer should mostly be left out as giving them "exactly" what they want gives them nothing they want makes no sense when dealing with the fact that exactly what they want in this instance is anything but what they got.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

OH LOOK, MORE INTERNET PERSONALITIES MISSING THE POINT

Seriously, I would say "I am dissapoint" but Bob, your better than us, really? You act like a grown up Bob, you don't demand things change to your specifications? Explain your passive-aggressive obsession with the new Spiderman flick and how you knock it at every reasonable and unreasonable chance you get - you have such an axe to grind for that movie i'd be amazed if you hadn't carved it a coffin yet.

Lets not even start on you and the transformers movies.

And before you whip out that tired critic THIS IS ART YOU CAN'T CHANGE ART bullshit - no. You do change art. That's how art gets made. It goes through editors, it goes through focus groups, it goes through notes. This is true for movies, this is true for books, the only thing it's not true for (MAYBE) is paintings. So unless you want to argue that the only true art is the visual kind you paint on an easel, maybe you should step on back and slow your roll.

Moreover, video games as an art form - because I do acknowledge them as an art form - require FAR more investment, both financially chronologically and intellectually then your precious movies do. Films are passive, games are interactive. Films cost 8-12 dollars, Video games cost 30-60 dollars. Films last 1 and 1/2 to 2 and 1/2 hours. Video games are considered rip-off short if they come in under 6 hours.

This is apples to oranges, no comparison. They're both fruit, but they're not the same KIND of fruit.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Made it to 3:24, when it became clear that rather than actually looking into your mistakes, and apologizing for them, you simply doubled down on them.

Bob, I know you've received at least 2 pieces of fanmail that have explained how wrong you are about the reasons behind the "Retake Mass Effect" movement; and how erecting and attacking this Strawman is despicable. Glad to see you paid attention Bob...

Well, Bob, until recently your shows seemed fine but now you've made it utterly clear that you aren't worth a damn. Thanks for the videos that have entertained me for the last 2-1/2 years, because I for one won't be continuing watching your shows.
It's amazing that someone who has a show called "The Big Picture", could miss it so thoroughly.

wow this is exactly what the problem is

its the exact same thing, letting a minority part of a game, (or in this case bobs series) ruin the rest of it for you.

Just wow really.

Why is it when "artists" exercise their rights to ignore US they're just being artistic, when we exercise our right to tell them they're full of shit and ignore THEM we're entitled and whiny? This is how product to consumer works. You produce a product for the consumer and make them happy to take said product, whether that product is an actual item or an artistic work or a video you make for some website once a week. If consumers don't like that product for ANY reason they have every right to say "well, your full of shit bye" and take their time and money elsewhere. You of course are perfectly well within your rights to ignore these people and double down. How much this affects your business is dependent on the number of customers you fail to serve.