The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Sean951]

The slave card takes your otherwise fantastic argument and weighs it down considerably. A double standard of the past is irrelevant. The continued impacts of slavery (though considerably more notable down in the States) are relevant but slavery itself is not. No one here has ever owned a slave, nor has their father or their grandfather; they may have racist parents or grandparents but never slave owning so there is no guilt to be had. The slave card makes your argument sound more petty and puerile, which is too

Europe got brought up because someone mentioned how Europe has "moved passed" racism and colonialism helped the former colonies. Yes, America did terrible things to the Native Americans, but I wouldn't call it genocide so much as mass corruption. The Supreme Curt ruled the Cherokee Nation an independent country, but that was ignored. Factor in ignorance of the others culture on both sides, and you get a decades long conflict that ended with the Reservations where local officials would take much of what was intended to be distributed and sell it to make money. I'm not saying the government was blameless, but it was far less a genocide than some people make it out to be.

Also, Europe may have banned slaves in Europe, but they sure as hell still had them in the colonies. Hell, the Dutch Congo was a hell hole until the early 1900s if I remember correctly.

 

[Otterby]

I must say, I had previously thought it a bit funny to cast a black man as a norse god - or indeed anybody who is depicted as white in the source material - because I'm just that kind of perfectionist (I hated the casting of Nicole Kidman as Mrs. Coulter in The Golden Compass simply because said woman HAD BLACK HAIR IN THE BOOK, DAMMIT!), but this did manage to convince me otherwise. Mainly because of the "acting skill > melanin level" argument, mind, though I do see the "lots of whites, few minorities" argument too.

But yes, well played Bob. Well played.

 

[Dansrage]

Is it ok that I, a British person, find the casting of a nordic god as black a bit daft because I am without all that slave owning history guilt? (Although I am sure Idris is awesome in Thor as he is a great actor. I saw his BBC series Luther and he kicked ass, you should all go watch it now)

Yes, because clearly the British Empire never did anything to hurt those living in Africa or India. Colonialism was almost as bad. just ask Ghandi.

Foo don't even get started on "who's committed the worst atrocities", there have been pros and cons to the vast majority of bad historical events. The one exception I can think of, and please feel free to correct me here, is the systematic robbing and near complete genocide of the Native Americans.

Along with what the Japanese did to the Chinese in World War Two, what different African tribes are doing to eachother to this very day, it's a lengthy and sordid list.
History is long, there has been no shortage of time to inflict suffering upon your fellow man, nobody has clean hands if you look hard enough.

 

[Vault Citizen]

As a comic book fan the reason why I rejected the idea of a black spiderman and why I'd probably dislike a black Batman is that personally speaking I can be a bit of a nut for detail. More simply put I like it better when they match and when they don't it annoys me in the same way it might annoy a neat freak if a fork is out of place or something.

I can agree with this, to the extent I still mean to find the passage in Tolkein's writing that describes the differing appearances of different Hobbits from different parts of the Shire to see whether or not a Pakistani woman should, imo, be allowed to play a Hobbit *dives behind asbestos wall* ...

... but I can see another problem with the idea of a black Batman.

Think about Batman's back-story.

Origin [http://www.comicvine.com/batman/29-1699/]

While leaving a movie theater for home, wealthy philanthropist Thomas Wayne and his wife Martha were accompanied by their 8 year-old son, Bruce. As they stepped onto Park Row (now called Crime Alley) a masked gunman called Joe Chill came out of the shadows. Chill shot and killed both Thomas and Martha in cold blood right in front of their young boy. Bruce was traumatized at the sight of his parents' death and his life would never be the same. After his parents' death, Bruce was raised by his wise and loyal butler Alfred Pennyworth and inherited his family's vast fortune as well as his father's company, Wayne Enterprises. ... With so many skills acquired, Bruce considered joining the FBI but learned that he could never fight crime within the current legal system.

The same page says Batman was first published in 1939. Wealthy black philanthropists with a wise and loyal butler and a vast fortune, in a city in the USA in 1939? Alright, him being unable to fight crime within the FBI matches being black in the USA in 1939 fairly well, but the rest of that story just doesn't.

A modern Batman, born after 1990, could be black and have that back-story ... just. [http://www.blackentrepreneurprofile.com/black-billionaires/]

I'll tell you who should be black but probably won't be in most cases: God, Michael, Gabriel, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Joshua, Abraham ...

Specifically:

World's most ancient race traced in DNA study [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/worlds-most-ancient-race-traced-in-dna-study-1677113.html]

The San people of southern Africa, who have lived as hunter-gatherers for thousands of years, are likely to be the oldest population of humans on Earth, according to the biggest and most detailed analysis of African DNA. The San, also known as bushmen, are directly descended from the original population of early human ancestors who gave rise to all other groups of Africans and, eventually, to the people who left the continent to populate other parts of the world.

A study of 121 distinct populations of modern-day Africans has found that they are all descended from 14 ancestral populations and that the differences and similarities of their genes closely follows the differences and similarities of their spoken languages.

Yes, I have seen Dogma. I did say "in most cases" there.

Its funny you mention bible characters because for the past few years I've imagined that the perfect choice to play Adam in a movie would be Denzel Washington (I imagine him having a beard)

 

[XandNobody]

You know what Bob? Normally, I only agree with about half of your videos, which puts me in that odd position of not caring enough to post because of what I agree on, while also not caring enough to post what I disagree on. So, yea, a lot of quiet between me and you thus far. However, this video? I am 100% behind you man. White guy replaces anyone else? No one cares. Anyone but white guy replaces someone else? Instant racially motivated shitstorm. Stay classy humanity, stay classy.

Because people will yell at me for this view, keep in mind, speaking majority on the complaining disparity here. Though, and this is what I hope, I fully hope that the complaining majority, is coming from the vocal minority, really I do, call me optimistic, but I do.

Also, MLP:FiM as the perfect world? I now love you Bob.

 

[Brinnmilo]

The slave card takes your otherwise fantastic argument and weighs it down considerably. A double standard of the past is irrelevant. The continued impacts of slavery (though considerably more notable down in the States) are relevant but slavery itself is not. No one here has ever owned a slave, nor has their father or their grandfather; they may have racist parents or grandparents but never slave owning so there is no guilt to be had. The slave card makes your argument sound more petty and puerile, which is too

Europe got brought up because someone mentioned how Europe has "moved passed" racism and colonialism helped the former colonies. Yes, America did terrible things to the Native Americans, but I wouldn't call it genocide so much as mass corruption. The Supreme Curt ruled the Cherokee Nation an independent country, but that was ignored. Factor in ignorance of the others culture on both sides, and you get a decades long conflict that ended with the Reservations where local officials would take much of what was intended to be distributed and sell it to make money. I'm not saying the government was blameless, but it was far less a genocide than some people make it out to be.

Also, Europe may have banned slaves in Europe, but they sure as hell still had them in the colonies. Hell, the Dutch Congo was a hell hole until the early 1900s if I remember correctly.

Well I'd have to agree with you Sean if it weren't for the fact that the Native American's (a nomadic culture with little to no farming expertise and a religious belief that ran in the face of the idea of farming) were put on reservations, punished if they left, had their main food source and cultural base (the Bison) hunted to near extinction. It goes on and on. But pointing the finger at people for who committed the worse atrocity is pointless because there are pros and cons for every thing and who knows what the world would be like now if it weren't for those horrific acts.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

 

[Jenx]

Ah the beauty of "white guilt". See, here in my country when we had slaves back in the middle ages (like everyone else and their grandma) our slaves were...well like us. We're Caucasian, they're Caucasian - everyone's happy. Except for the slaves, obviously.

So yeah, this horse has been beaten to death, then resurrected and smacked down again. No point in grinding on and on about it.

 

[MB202]

I can't help but notice a lot of people seem to be offended that Bob doesn't seem to understand the origins of slavery and that not all slaves were black. I also noticed that Bob explicitly mentioned in his video that he's well aware of this and that he stated he can only give his point of view from an AMERICAN perspective, hence referring to American slaves, which were mostly, if not entirely composed of black people.

 

[samus17]

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why should you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

That is SO ignorant and racist.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

 

[jabrwock]

Bob, for someone who rails against Hollywood History in his other videos, you really should watch yourself here. White people aren't the only racists in the world. Racism isn't, nor has it ever been, a "white" problem. It's a Human problem.

"Whites only" was the NORTH AMERICAN implementation of that. He says as much in the beginning, where he says this discussion is NA-centric. He was talking about how "whites only" bled over into things like media.

In other countries, where the predominant group that owned slaves is non-white, I'll bet they have a group of minorities (which may well include whites) who are disenfranchised, impoverished, and in need of affirmative action to give them a leg up in order to balance the societal bias that has it's roots in events many many decades earlier.

And to those who try to simplify things by saying that they don't owe anything because they weren't the ones doing it. You don't owe anything. But society does. You can't just stop racism and then wash your hands of it. As a society, you need to help those who were oppressed (and the following generations if it takes you that long) re-integrate back into society. Affirmative action isn't the best way to do that, but it's the best we've got.

 

[JDKJ]

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why should you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

That is SO ignorant and racist.

That is SO just a conclusion, entirely devoid of any support. If you can put some clothes on your naked Emperor, I'll gladly respond to you.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

 

[Gindil]

Complaining about him being black is stupid, just like complaining about it in Prince of Persia was stupid.

Anyway, I don't really feel like you can justice everything with what the slavers did 200 years ago. Racism is a problem to be dealt with, but no man alive today had anything to do with the slavery and no man today is, directly, suffering from it. In directly to be sure, but not directly.

I doubt that's what he's saying. The effects of oppression on a culture continue to be felt in quite a number of arenas today. First, you have limited educational opportunities to minorities. Second is underrepresentation in government laws. Third, less opportunities to get above the poverty line. Jim Crow laws for African Americans only happened 60+ years ago, those affects continue to linger.

The same goes with bad laws of immigration for all other minorities in the US. Seriously, look at it for yourself. Does it make sense? [http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg]

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

 

[lokiduck]

What I find funny is that there was all this butt hurt for Heimdell being Black especially considering one of the warriors Three was Asian and no one complained about that XD

To me as long as the character doesn't for sure HAVE to be that race for it to fit his/her character anyone should be able to play it no matter want.

But that's also because Kenneth Branagh is color blind when it comes to casting his actors, he wants the one that can do the part not the fit the race.

 

[blackwlf]

Y'know, until I watched this, it hadn't actually occurred to me that Heimdall should have been white by canon. I just thought he gave a great performance.

Beyond that, I'd say Bob has the right idea. Sure it's a double standard. But it's a necessary one to try to bring about a bit of equality.