The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[EmpressZombiKitty]

Well said Bob. I really enjoyed this episode. Also, the casting of Elba was awesome. He has such a presence in every scene he's in.

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

that may be but i choose as a person to owe nothing as I feel no responsibility for what happened to your ancestors whom I am almost positive probably did bad things to someones ancestors somewhere down the line.

You can always choose to not acknowledge the debt. That doesn't mean you don't owe the debt.

I haven't benefited from it. Some other white people who are now long since dead benefited from it.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

The "you" wasn't literally directed at Father Time. It was used in relation to DUKENUK3M who claimed he didn't owe and to whom I originally responded.

EDIT: And who still insists he doesn't owe. ^^

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Actually they were purchased from other Africans. Slavery is universal across the entire globe and most of history.

 

[Brinnmilo]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

that may be but i choose as a person to owe nothing as I feel no responsibility for what happened to your ancestors whom I am almost positive probably did bad things to someones ancestors somewhere down the line.

You can always choose to not acknowledge the debt. That doesn't mean you don't owe the debt.

I haven't benefited from it. Some other white people who are now long since dead benefited from it.

Eeeehh I struggle to agree with you but only because I can see the only possible end of this argument being that we all owe a massive debt to physics and the start of the universe.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Actually they were purchased from other Africans. Slavery is universal across the entire globe and most of history.

What does that have to do with your benefit?

 

[Andothul]

Bob....I am so disappoint.

For oh so, so many reasons.

1) White people didn't invent slavery, and if you travel back far enough, you'll find a lot of Caucasians were slaves to some other race or another at some point in history too, along with any other race you can think of, for fucks sake, some African tribes actively enslaved other weaker tribes before we even landed there.

You seem to think that dwelling on what our ANCESTORS did is a good idea. Self deprecation is never a good idea, let alone for something none of us hold any kind of responsibility for. Colour me confused, but I'm not going to be tried for any crimes my long dead relatives committed and that's kinda what you're suggesting.

The only way we're going to be able to move past racism is by simply not acknowledging it. We certainly aren't going to manage it by dwelling on what happened in the past.

2) You didn't even glance over the reason that this shitstorm kicked up. It's got nothing to do with racism. When Duncan was cast as the kingpin way back in the old daredevil movie, no one made a fuss. In-fact, people were more bothered about the casting choice of DD himself. I thought he was a cool change.

Or when Samuel Jackson was cast as Fury... I don't think anyone so much as muttered a word of disapproval. I certainly didn't. He added some much needed cool to an otherwise bland character.

Do you know why no one made a stink about that? Because both Nick Fury and the Kingpins race, was never, ever, ever, ever, ever an integral part of their character.

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

Personally, I'm not going to let that bother me when I watch the film. It's not like it's an accurate depiction of Norse mythology as it is. But I just think it's pretty low of you to bring this topic up and completely gloss over the nuts and bolts of the issue.

It's not that it's a blackman playing a role that had otherwise been for a white person. It's that he is portraying a European god. Something that is representative of a certain timeline and people. And it is a miscast by that criteria.

3) Fucking Pony's... ideal fucking world..... GTFO!

Dude i doubt you even watched the movie Thor because if you did you would understand that in this iteration of the comic book. These are not Norse Gods they are aliens/higher beings that live in an alternative universe.

So it doesn't matter if Heimdall is black, yellow, purple or tangerine because HES NOT NORSE.

It even explains in the movie that Asgardians were simply worshipped by the primitive norse not that they were norse.

 

[Comando96]

It worked as a casting...
... somehow during the Crusades a black guy appears in Medieval Middle England but hey, the Romans were responsible for bringing black traders and black gladiators to York, so its possible the Crusades brought ONE black guy back...

As far as the whole issue goes I really do not care when they switch the race of characters, so long as it makes the film better or at a minimum it doesn't take away from it. I mean I'd be pissed if they gave up the chance of casting George Clooney for someone like Stephen K. Amos who would be completely inappropriate for the position. However if they subbed Clooney for Gordon Freeman, it would be fine.
Similarly if you had new young actors required... go for it!!! Switch'em round. If the actor is crap then we can bin them and never hear of them again!

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Actually they were purchased from other Africans. Slavery is universal across the entire globe and most of history.

What does that have to do with your benefit?

Wouldn't their descendents also owe a debt, presuming you believe in debt being passed by blood (which I don't)?

 

[Brinnmilo]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

I'm a bit confused about your issue with my comment as you seem to just be agreeing with me. How ever some of my comment was confusing so:
"every one owes the "benefits" to every one" - is the equivalent of saying no one owes any one anything.
As far as the two finishing questions go I think I covered that with both your quote and "extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race".

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

It's not that simple. If you're white and American, the long and, arguably, still continuing history of repression and oppression of racial minorities by the white majority better positions you to compete for scare resources and opportunities (e.g., schools, jobs, etc.) than the minorities who have historically been kept from the field of competition.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Pretty sure I was talking about modern black Americans there, yep just checked, I was. I don't dispute that it was hell for those involved in the actual slavery part.

Do you understand what a "vestige" is? And why is your account of History stopping at the abolition of slavery? The unfair treatment of blacks in American wasn't legally abolished until the 1950s (see Brown v. Board of Education and related cases) and, in some cases, later than that (it was illegal for blacks to marry whites until the 1970s (see Virginia v. Loving) and the school desegregation cases, some of which festered on until the early 1980s)).

You were the one that mentioned about the slaves coming to America not me. I probably should say that I'm English so I'm not really inculcated in the history of America.

I do personally believe that racism in any form is wrong and yes I accept that it's only been recently that you could say it's even possibly on an even keel for all races (Probably not true as such) but as I said at the beginning, my statement wasn't so much that institutional racism no longer exists in America but that MODERN blacks have benefitted from slavery.

Not in any financial sense but rather in a sense that though their "people" have suffered, they themselves individually can achieve a great deal of things that would probably have been denied them had their ancestors not suffered so terribly.

I'm in danger of Godwinning myself here but do you think a German owes a Jew a debt because of the Terrible suffering of the Jewish during the war?

I think it should be acknowledged but it shouldn't be the defining character of those people.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Pretty sure I was talking about modern black Americans there, yep just checked, I was. I don't dispute that it was hell for those involved in the actual slavery part.

Do you understand what a "vestige" is? And why is your account of History stopping at the abolition of slavery? The unfair treatment of blacks in American wasn't legally abolished until the 1950s (see Brown v. Board of Education and related cases) and, in some cases, later than that (it was illegal for blacks to marry whites until the 1970s (see Virginia v. Loving) and the school desegregation cases, some of which festered on until the early 1980s)).

You were the one that mentioned about the slaves coming to America not me. I probably should say that I'm English so I'm not really inculcated in the history of America.

I do personally believe that racism in any form is wrong and yes I accept that it's only been recently that you could say it's even possibly on an even keel for all races (Probably not true as such) but as I said at the beginning, my statement wasn't so much that institutional racism no longer exists in America but that MODERN blacks have benefitted from slavery.

Not in any financial sense but rather in a sense that though their "people" have suffered, they themselves individually can achieve a great deal of things that would probably have been denied them had their ancestors not suffered so terribly.

I'm in danger of Godwinning myself here but do you think a German owes a Jew a debt because of the Terrible suffering of the Jewish during the war?

I think it should be acknowledged but it shouldn't be the defining character of those people.

The Germans obviously think they do.

Germany, by way of agreement with Israel, has paid $715 million in goods and services to the State of Israel as compensation for taking in survivors of the Holocaust; $110 million to the Claims Conference for programs to finance the relief, rehabilitation, and resettlement of Jewish Holocaust survivors; and direct reparations to selected individuals over a 12-year period amounting to several hundred million dollars and still counting.

 

[blackwlf]

I just thought I'd toss in one other thing: Did anyone else mention the fact that the 'token black guy' is also the Asgardian equivalent of the door man?

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

It's not that simple. If you're white and American, the long and, arguably, still continuing history of repression and oppression of racial minorities by the white majority better positions you to compete for scare resources and opportunities (e.g., schools, jobs, etc.) than the minorities who have historically been kept from the field of competition.

1. Yes but that is different from slavery, yet slavery is still invoked as a debt that all white people share.

2. Also in the past, before my time. That is last millennium's business. Not my responsibility.

 

[le picklez]

Freedom's a new idea. Why is it so important to repay the minorities for their enslavement? Everything preys on something weaker than themselves. There's no excuse for that, but it's also not a reason for this in itself. A reason to cast that black man would be the guy's a great actor, and so forth, not that he's black. Literally saying that it's because he's black and it's fair because we enslaved black people is inflammatory. That in itself breeds hate and further racism in people who disagree with your view, and perhaps in people who share your view...

TL;DR: "Because he's black" is never a reason for anything.

 

[Davroth]

The reason why I'm not happy with casting a black actor as a Norse God is that it makes no sense to me. Why is there only one? Why didn't the Vikings portrayed him as black? For that matter, what's up with Thor's Asian friend?

Was that seriously the only role in the entire movie that could be played by a black actor?