The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

I often wondered how Marvel's Tarzan survived the African sun without being lathered from head to toe in SPF 110. Now I know: it's bullshit!! "Lord of the Jungle" my ass.

He survived because it was a comic book. Are you trying to be clever? If so it isn't translating well.

And comic book Suns don't cause blistering sunburn? Just asking. I'm no Stan Lee.

Well you are trolling so I will leave you with this, you can do whatever you want in ficition and ignore any factual principles you want.

Have a good day.

 

[JDKJ]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

They have referred to themselves as gods on more than one occasion. They are the Norse gods of the Marvel universe. The fact that they're in a comic doesn't really mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they aren't Norse gods.

Also, how is the second part relevant? Marvel butcher every piece of outside inspiration they can get their hands on. That's what they do. I'm not expecting an accurate representation of source material when I watch or read something marvel... I think I must have pointed this about about 3-4 times by now. I'm pretty much just playing devils advocate here. I'm pointing out what is annoying OTHER people.

(I have also never been able to find the issue where Hemidall was black.)

It is Thor: The Mighty Avenger #6

Spoiler:

and because they are the Norse gods of the Marvel Universe means that Marvel can do whatever they want to them and not worry about historical accuracy.

Ok I understand you are playing devils advocate, I am just saying why people shouldn't be annoyed that all...we can end this now haha

Actually, he's not playing Devil's advocate. He actually believes that the mythological nature of the Norse gods isn't in any way undermined by their appearance in a comic book. Kinda like those folk who believe that if you have two Wonder Twin rings and you stick 'em together while reciting the words "Wonder Twin powers . . . activate!" it's possible to assume the shape of a bucket and the form of water.

 

[Luthir Fontaine]

Good points bob

 

[Powerman88]

Bob, big fan but this series is hit or miss in general. Today, BIG HIT! Very well said sir. Very impressed here.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

So Captain America could be a french guy because he is just a fictional character? just asking

No, because him being an American soldier is a significant part of most Captain America stories, Heimdall being white isn't really that significant to any plot lines. His race doesn't affect anything, while Captain America's nationality does.

Captain America can be black or have french ancestry or be played by a french actor, but the character has to be an American since that is an important part of the story.

But technically he is a fictional character so yes he can be french why not. I have limited personal stake in the realms of fantasy.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

It doesn't matter that they're in a comic, they're still Norse gods.

Marvel sure can cast who ever it likes. Casting a black person as an ancient European god isn't even the strangest thing they've done to them. That doesn't stop them from being Norse gods though.

Like I said in my previous post. The casting isn't going to sway me either way on the film. I'm just pointing out why it's bugging some people.

But they aren't Norse gods. They are comic book character's based on Norse mythology.

Also Hemidall was black in an issue of Thor: The Mighty Avenger...

They have referred to themselves as gods on more than one occasion. They are the Norse gods of the Marvel universe. The fact that they're in a comic doesn't really mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean they aren't Norse gods.

Also, how is the second part relevant? Marvel butcher every piece of outside inspiration they can get their hands on. That's what they do. I'm not expecting an accurate representation of source material when I watch or read something marvel... I think I must have pointed this about about 3-4 times by now. I'm pretty much just playing devils advocate here. I'm pointing out what is annoying OTHER people.

(I have also never been able to find the issue where Hemidall was black.)

It is Thor: The Mighty Avenger #6

Spoiler:

and because they are the Norse gods of the Marvel Universe means that Marvel can do whatever they want to them and not worry about historical accuracy.

Ok I understand you are playing devils advocate, I am just saying why people shouldn't be annoyed that all...we can end this now haha

Cool. So did they just have him as black for that one issue, or did they do it for that entire series?

Was it just a plug for the film or was the issue released a long time before the films was being made?

I don't know if it was for that one issue, but I am assuming yes.

And it was released before the film.

 

[rda_Highlander]

Samurai Pizza Cats! Hell yeah! The best NES game ever made! Oh, it was also an animation? Anyway, I now have a bad case of nostalgia.

 

[Mxrz]

I disagree to race being the motivating factor.

My argument: American Godzilla.

 

[Alphakirby]

It's official, Ponies have taken over the escapist.

And I love it

Damnit YOU NINJA!
Yeah,I was just about to bring up that Bob used Ponies as an example for an "ideal world".
But without the "Love" part.

Damn ponies,next thing you know,our resident tosser will like them.
And our newbie and less talented tosser would go next.

 

[Doitpow]

snip

This'll doubtless be a drop in an angry sea, but I just wanna say I'm right behind ya here Bob. In fact it is your de-idealisation of issues like this that drew me to you in the first place, back in the Resident Evil 5 days. If this means anything, I'm a social anthropology graduate and your ability to root this discussion in a proper historical context sets you apart from the majority of social commentary on the internet.

also for a probable upcoming race-nerd disaster look at speculation on the casting for the upcoming live action Akira movie.

 

[Swarles]

Very good episode with great insight. Also............PONIES!!!!!

 

[Swarles]

...Anyway, I now have a bad case of nostalgia.

The last thing you want to do then is watch any of these... http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/nostalgia-critic

Oh My god someone put up a nostalgia critic reference, thats the best thing I've ever heard in my life. (Just read that in a Chester A. Bum voice)

 

[octafish]

Does anyone else think that black superman is a great idea? Cause I sure as hell do

There already was one...

I agree wholeheartedly with Moviebob here.

 

[Togs]

Come for the well reasoned insightful opinions, stay for the flame wars that erupt afterwards.

 

[Benjamin Zeledon]

Great show Bob! =)

Er, still other things do exist though. I.E, why is Bane being played by a British actor? He is one of the few if any Latino DC characters in existence...and this?

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

But the current immigration problems are very much the issue of those alive today. I brought up the past because you claimed that Europe helped all it's foreign colonies.

snip...

3) As far as immigration issues go... America and Europe are in two completely different situations. Europe has countries with long standing cultures where the people have been there for thousands of years. No one has a right to their country just because they're wealthy. America, on the other hand, is #1 FUCKING HUGE and can accommodate a lot more people, and #2 is founded by immigrants (well, except for the Native Americans). If the French say you have to be French to be in France, then more power to them. But America is founded on the principle of:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

So yeah, two different situations entirely.

4) Would Africa be better off if we stayed out of it? Do you think that American black people are better off now even though they started off as slaves? I don't think Africa would have had the industrial revolution on its own, it just wasn't heading that way. I'm not saying that justifies slavery, but it does seem to suggest that slavery did have some good consequences as well. I think if you asked most black people today if they could go back in a time machine and stop slavery, but if they did they would come back in an Africa untouched by European influence most of them would resoundingly respond: "FUCK THAT SHIT, I LIKE RUNNING WATER!"

5) I'm going to go out on a limb here and people might call me racist, but I'm going to say that race is no longer the primary issue. Sure, it might keep some people from getting the jobs that they deserve, but I think the thing that overwhelmingly keeps black people down in America is... POVERTY. Duh. Middle class black people don't have much to worry about. Hopefully they live in an area like San Francisco or New York where they won't be discriminated against.

Poverty begets poverty, and black people started off poor, so now they have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I don't think the answer is to be focusing all of our attention on getting more black actors roles, or telling white people how they're privileged. That simply isn't going to accomplish much of anything. The fact of the matter is that we need to increase taxes and improve the education system in poor communities so that people can escape poverty.

snip...

3) I really don't see how that matters in the slightest. So what if America is founded as a nation of immigrants and Europe wasn't. Institutionalized racism is still racism and I reserve the right to call it that.

4)Yes, yes it would. Africa produced some amazing empires on it's own, such as the Great Zimbabwe, Ethiopia (which was never colonized), Mali, the Gold Coast, The Fatimid Caliphate, the Almoravid and Almohad caliphates, Egypt, Carthage, etc. Yes, I pulled some of those from ancient times, but the point is they were entirely capable of forming their own kingdoms and, had they not been largely subjugated from 1600s-1900s, they could have pulled of their own form. If nothing else, it would have been done through contact, as even the people of Southern Africa traded with China.

5) Well... I tend to agree on this, Racism still exists and will keep certain people from getting jobs or houses or what have you, but the main thing keeping the poor people poor is the "culture" that you find in the more poverty stricken areas. The "gangster" lifestyle has it's appeal and many of the role models of people who escaped such situations are pro athletes. This isn't to say that poor people can't get out of the ghettos, but it takes a significant amount of work.

3) Tautology is tautology? 'American' isn't an ethnicity (well, Native American is but I'm talking about the rest of us who inhabit the country). 'French' however, is an ethnicity. Is somebody who passes a test and gets a piece of paper really as 'French' as someone whose family has lived in France since back before the Roman Empire? If so, then being 'French' is rather meaningless, isn't it?

I don't buy it. By comparison, being American just means holding that piece of paper. If, say, 100 million Chinese people moved into France, became citizens and then over the course of a couple decades changes the national language to Mandarin and most movies and public media are derived from traditional Chinese culture as well as the architecture, food, and everything else, then I hate to break it to you, but the geographical region of France would cease to be 'France' in any meaningful sense of the term. Are they really an evil bunch of racists for trying to preserve their culture? Why does everyone else in the world somehow have a right to come to their country and claim citizenship if their native population isn't for it?

4) Maybe. Maybe some regions would, but I doubt all regions would. Europe was pretty lucky in stumbling into its technology. Even extremely well organized civilizations like Japan and China with great potentials for scientific discovery and industrial complexes didn't develop the printing press on their own. Sub Saharan Africa has been far less organized than them, so they'd be even less likely. (Sub Saharan Africa doesn't include North Africa, which I openly admit has traditionally been fairly advanced. At one point Alexandria was basically the center of world culture.) There's no way you can claim that it would though. Hegel is full of crap, history isn't teleological: it's a conglomerate of blind forces above all else.

5) I think we're agreed. Part of the problem is that black people were deprived of their original culture when taken to America and the culture that developed has strong self defeating attitudes instilled into it by the pessimism that inevitably arose from their situation. Part of that includes a disdain for education and professional success because it used to be the case that a black person could only get those by 'sucking up to the man' and thus people who did so were seen as traitors. I think Malcolm X had it right when he saw that it would not only take political upheaval in America to uplift black people, but social and cultural upheaval within the black community as well. (And also adequate support of basic needs from the government like health care and education.)