The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith, Part III

[sunami88]

After watching all three parts I can confidently say that "I don't get it". I'm not sure exactly what this series was about other than Bob not liking Kevin very much, even though he goes on to list many of Kevin's works that he enjoys, and then states he actually kind of likes Kevin Smith?

Sure, the guys got fans and friends, and has made some good and some awful movies, but where precisely was "The Fall" again? So you haven't liked his last two films and are looking forward to one or two in the future... Good for you? I've not connected with the subject matter of Bob's videos before, but this was the first one to leave me befuddled as to what was actually being discussed; more importantly why I even bothered watching at all.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I suppose it says something about Kevin Smith's relevance and continued ability to connect with his audience that 1) Bob spent three videos dissecting and reviewing his career, and 2) no one seems to focus on the lost potential/unmet expectations/commercial sell outs of once-promising herladed young and/or indie filmmakeers like John Singleton, Justin Lin, etc.

 

[TaboriHK]

When all is said and done, this series has just made me think of Bob as a Nintendo fan who got too old for the demo. He mentions Kevin Smith was "supposed to be the chosen one" many times, but what does that even mean? He made what he wanted to make, successful or not, and he's doing what he wants to do. I'm not sure what the problem is. I've never been particularly in love with Kevin Smith, but I'm not sure what this built to in the end for Extra Credits on this subject. I guess this is another thing Bob will apologize about in a couple years when another movie comes out and he decides he was holding too much energy for this guy?

 

[ron1n]

Zack and Miri is seriously underrated. One of my favorite comedies to be honest.

Yeah it has Seth and Liz Banks, but it also has an awesome supporting cast. It's worth watching just for Justin Long's scene haha

Even has a cameo by Kenny Hotz of Kenny vs Spenny fame.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Damn it Bob! I asked you not to use Kevin Smith as a cheap scapegoat personifications of Gen-Y's inability to live up it its own lofty expectations for its own greatness.
And you did.
"Kevin Smith is bad because we though he was Jesus and he wasn't."
It seems to me that Gen-Y's displeasure with Smith has less to do with Smith himself and more to do with their leached onto idol didn't rewrite all of everything to proclaim Gen-Y as the best thing ever. Now has every movie Smith has made been good? No.
But maybe Gen-Y wouldn't be so disappointed if they didn't build up Smith as some great icon, ushering in the new age of movies.
Hell, Tarantino isn't that good or original but everyone gives him a pass because no one expects him to make better than middle of the road Western versions of Japanese films. Smith has made a few awesome movies and through no fault of his own everyone else expected every movie to be better than the last.
Is Keven Smith a genius director/writer? No, of course not. But it certainly didn't help Gen-Y put him on a pedestal marked 'Greatest thing ever' and then demanded he earn his place.

 

[MrDumpkins]

I honestly don't understand these last 3 episodes, I normally like movie bobs stuff but these episodes felt pointless. I don't see the problem with what smith does, everyone has their niche. He found that directing serious stuff doesn't work out for him, so he just decided to go with what his fans want. I don't see any reason someone can't create entertainment that their fans want. Sometimes its just better to stick with what you're good at, especially if you can wake up every morning loving it, I don't see how that's not the case with him. I honestly can't think of what movie bob really thinks of kevin smith spending 3 weeks to this. Just strange, will be nice see something else again.

 

[Piorn]

I still don't get it.
So this guy makes one movie, which is a hit just because it's a neat idea that resonated with people who had literally nothing else to watch.
And that's it?
And here I thought making 3 Movies out of the Hobbit was a stretch...

 

[dakkster]

It's kind of hard to really dislike Kevin Smith. As Bob said, in his position we would've all probably done the same. Think about it: He works on movies and comics, is married to an ex-model, and gets a steady supply of cash as long as he doesn't deviate too much from the stuff that he already likes doing .....
????
Profit
Look at his later movies: You can see that they're not his usual stuff, so fans can avoid them. It's basically on the cover.
His Q&A s are pretty interesting, but they also give Smith a platform to explain away all the "bad" stuff he's done. The family film because he has started a family now, the Bruce Willis cash-in because he admires the legend, etc.
Normally, explanations like this would be given out to the press, and the single "apology" would be quickly drowned out by fan-shouting on the internet.
Smith's genius is that with his Q&A sessions his fans get appeased by the apology, they further get something that they want, ie more of Smith's stories, and Smith gets freaking payed. You rescue your movie making career and you get payed doing it. That's genius.

Small note: Smith's wife is not an ex-model. She was a journalist.

 

[dakkster]

I honestly don't understand these last 3 episodes, I normally like movie bobs stuff but these episodes felt pointless. I don't see the problem with what smith does, everyone has their niche. He found that directing serious stuff doesn't work out for him, so he just decided to go with what his fans want. I don't see any reason someone can't create entertainment that their fans want. Sometimes its just better to stick with what you're good at, especially if you can wake up every morning loving it, I don't see how that's not the case with him. I honestly can't think of what movie bob really thinks of kevin smith spending 3 weeks to this. Just strange, will be nice see something else again.

Exactly. And Kevin has been up front about this his whole career. I guess Bob expects everyone to want to be an "auteur" or whatever.

 

[rdaleric]

My favourite Kevin Smith thing is still his interview with Stan Lee

 

[softclocks]

I seriously thought zack and miri was a judd apatow flick..

 

[JCAll]

I'm now going to be really disappointed if Clerks 3 isn't about Dante and Randall making a movie.

 

[medv4380]

It doesn't make fun of "religion". It makes fun of Catholics. Which has been the tried and true tradition of the Protestant US for many generations even before the US was founded. That's really why electing Kennedy was such a big deal in US History. And for all the Catholic bashing it did a large portion of Religious Right Wing America could look past it because that's all it was. Catholic Bashing: An American Tradition Since December 1620

While Catholicism is the focus of the movie, I'm not sure how you walk away from Dogma without an indictment of organised religion as a whole. I mean, you can kind of argue that it panders to the mewling cop out of "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual," but it wasn't going to win many points with any religion or sect.

You might want to lookup actual Protestant Propaganda against the Catholic Church.

Taken out of the context Protestant Propaganda always looks like it's against "organized" religion. However, since Protestants are clearly groups of Organized Religions they clearly are not against "organizing", and are only taking a swipe at Catholics. No matter how much like hypocrisy it might seem.

The "sweet" Jesus was a direct swipe at Catholic Idolatry that Protestants always criticize them over. The giving away forgiveness to get people to show up was the main plot point of the movie was oddly similar to the selling of indulgences that, again, Protestants hated about the Catholic Church. Dogma symbolizes how silly Catholicism seems to Protestants if Catholicism were the "one true church".

Clearly what Walsfeo was claiming

Making fun of religion was a bit edgy back then.

Is clearly false. It's always be the status quo to mock the Catholic church in the way the Kevin Smith did.

As the Anti-Catholic Defamation League stated about the film when it came out

That film critics like the New York Times reviewer, Janet Maslin, and Time magazine's Richard Corliss, thought it a gas means either that they will laugh at anything, or they can't resist giving high marks to any movie that insults Catholicism. The only way to find out for sure is for someone in Hollywood to make a stupid comedy that insults Protestants or Jews (preferably both), and then run it by the likes of Maslin and Corliss.

Mocking a religion that most Protestants hate isn't anti-religion and hasn't been taboo in this country EVER. It's, unfortunately, completely normal. Had Smith used Baptists, or any other recognized Protestant group it would have failed as a movie. Take Red State as evidence of that small little fact. Had he used Catholics instead of Republican Christian Fundamentalists, guaranteeing he alienated over half the potential audience, he probably would have succeed.

Which is sad that some people actually mistake clear bigotry of one specific group as "OK" just because it can be warped to a world view of hate of someone they can accept hating. The Atheist who love it as Anti-Religion are just as bigoted, and hateful, as the Protestants who love it as the Anti-Catholic Protestant Propaganda that it is.

The people who like it, think it's just tongue in cheek humor, and nothing more, don't see it as irreligious are kinda ok, but even they don't like a film like Sucker Punch at attempts to mock them in much the same way.

 

[Ohlookit'sMatty]

"Now this ones got an Oscar and this ones Batman" hehe, I'm not sure which of those two is the real winner

-M

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Zack and Miri is seriously underrated. One of my favorite comedies to be honest.

Yeah it has Seth and Liz Banks, but it also has an awesome supporting cast. It's worth watching just for Justin Long's scene haha

Even has a cameo by Kenny Hotz of Kenny vs Spenny fame.

Justin Long is amazing in that movie. The unused Zack and Miri Make Your Porno testimonials are fucking gold. Great movie.

 

[srpilha]

I found there was actually a lot less disliking of KS in this series than I expected. In the end it's pretty balanced, and becomes a series not on KS himself, but rather on questions raised by expectations (own and else's) and the sort of imprisonment in one successful "style". Pretty interesting.

I'm roughly of the same generation as MovieBob, and I can really relate with the impact Clerks had then. I also remember finding Mallrats a lot less interesting and absolutely loving Chasing Amy. Of those, only Clerks survived the test of time, the others are nearly unwatchable for me today. I remember Dogma as not bad, but I haven't watched it in a long time. Not sure I will.

 

[The Hungry Samurai]

IMHO Kevin Smith still has it, and he doesn't need to dip into the View Askiewnaverse to do it. It's just that the harder he trys to please box offices the more generic his work becomes (Jersey Girl, Cop Out, Mall Rats...) Given a voice he can make a good film a given a budget AND a voice he can make a great film. (Dogma, Zack and Miri....)

I don't think he needs to do a Clerks 3 because he gave the whole world the perfect and fitting send off with Clerks 2. Then again I complained that he was sacrificing his principals when I heard he was going to do Clerks 2, and I was sorely mistaken.

The only thing that surprises me at this point is with all the Pop Culture Geek directors like Joss Whedon making it big, why the hell hasn't anyone tapped Smith to do a superhero movie yet?

Say what you will about the swings and misses of his career, I think if they pair him up with the right character he could make a damn good Comic movie.

 

[Robot-Jesus]

many words

It's harder to mock protestantism as it's a wide field. I've been to three funerals. One was mostly biographical and secular, one was very scripture based, and one was catholic.

I had no problems with the ceremony, but If I were to write a comedy about the experience the Catholic service produced the most material. Although if I still had mormon relatives there would probably be some material there.

 

[faefrost]

You also mentioned Robert Rodriguez in part 1. Did he not live up to expectations?

I think I remember in one of the reviews of Rodriguez' films Moviebob mentioned that he's stayed pretty much the same.

I get the impression that it is:
Kevin Smith - Wasted potential.
Robert Rodriguez - Stayed the same but is still pretty good.
Tarentino - Lived up to his potential.

Ah well, we conclude another part series on The Big Picture, and they're usually fun. I'll just sit by and wait for the next one.

And yet in all three cases none of their actual product changed. Tarantino is still making the same over the top violence fests with snappy dialogue that he started. if anything he has regressed a bit from Reservoir Dogs. Rodriguez remains a bit all over the map but mainly sticking with his Grindhouse style and Smith movies remain Smith movies. There are not any surprises, any great moments of art from any of them. They make entertaining movies that may or may not appeal to certain specific niche bases.

Although I do agree with the general sentiment of your statement, Tarantino style proved to be an incredible vehicle for great acting, creating several great moments of art.

fair point. They all actually have produced some fine art. They all are good directors. They all are typically very good at getting good performances out of their actors. And they have given us some true classic Hollywood moments. Tarantino especially with Pulp Fiction. But by the same token I think we pretty much know what we are going to get from each of them. Their next movie will not be Gone with the Wind. (OK the thought of Jay and Silent Bob in Scarlett O'Hara dresses while D'Jango shoots up Tara has some weird compelling appeal...)

 

[BrotherRool]

Aww I actually want to know what happened to Jack Black's career. He always seems like such a lovely person, but the last thing I saw him in was a Community cameo.