The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith, Part III

[Jennacide]

It's always weird to me when people compare directors that didn't live up to the hype to Tarantino, a man I consistantly find not living up to the hype. Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction were good, but it's been all downhill from there. Jackie Brown is only know for a few memorable lines from Sam Jackson, but otherwise sucked; Kill Bill was too schizophrenic and jumped styles way too much without actually offering much value, and like Clerks is getting a 3rd movie somehow; the Deathproof segment of Grindhouse wasn't any good; and Django Unchained was massively overhyped and turned into nothing but a revisionist power fantasy.

Meanwhile, when Smith is self effacing, he gets shit for his work, and Tarantino is put on a pedestool while he's a colossal prick to people. I will never understand the world.

 

[walsfeo]

Making fun of religion was a bit edgy back then.

Is clearly false. It's always be the status quo to mock the Catholic church in the way the Kevin Smith did.

Meh, I don't remember that kind of satire being prevalent at that point in time. Having been raised Catholic, DOGMA stood out to me.

Which is sad that some people actually mistake clear bigotry of one specific group as "OK" just because it can be warped to a world view of hate of someone they can accept hating. The Atheist who love it as Anti-Religion are just as bigoted, and hateful, as the Protestants who love it as the Anti-Catholic Protestant Propaganda that it is.

The people who like it, think it's just tongue in cheek humor, and nothing more, don't see it as irreligious are kinda ok, but even they don't like a film like Sucker Punch at attempts to mock them in much the same way.

As a now non-believer I like it because it points out absurdity. I find it amusing, and those who don't should find it food for thought. Those who just find it bigoted and hateful apparently have either no sense of humor or no perspective.

 

[medv4380]

Meh, I don't remember that kind of satire being prevalent at that point in time. Having been raised Catholic, DOGMA stood out to me.

Which means most of your knowledge comes after the alliance between Catholic Bishops and Evangelical Protestants did a proverbial halting of active demonizing in the name of the prolife movement. You should probably read up on the very long history of anti-catholic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_States] hate in the US. Your parents or catholic grandparents would probably be familiar with how venomous it was, and for many still is.

 

[MrBrightside919]

While I still like Clerks 2 more than some of Smith's other movies, my god it got soooo depressing at points...

 

[Darknacht]

Making fun of religion was a bit edgy back then.

Is clearly false. It's always be the status quo to mock the Catholic church in the way the Kevin Smith did.

Meh, I don't remember that kind of satire being prevalent at that point in time. Having been raised Catholic, DOGMA stood out to me.

It was very common at the time, though not in a lot of big movies like Dogma, stand up comics of the 90s and South Park satirized the Catholic Church a lot and groups like Monty Python and the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have been doing it since the 1970s. Its likely you where just sheltered from most of it.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I don't feel like his failures are really his fault so much. On paper, his (in hindsight) more riskier moves seem like safe bets. Of course people would want to see a raunchy Seth Rogen comedy (unless they release it on Halloween and don't promote it). Of course people want to see a Ben Affleck / Jennifer Lopez movie (until they don't). Of course a cop movie starring Bruce Willis is a safe bet (unless Willis decides to tear up the script in front of you to prove a point). It makes sense that he's decided, for better or worse, to make weird crazy movies he thought up while high on a podcast. I hope they turn out well. I don't understand the hatred for Red State, though. I rewatched it a couple months ago and thought it was even better on second viewing, especially while in the occasional cranky don't-trust-the-government mood I get in from time to time.

 

[pearcinator]

What's wrong with Jack Black's career? I think he's still fairly relevant. Maybe not as big as he was in the late 90's/early 2000's but he is still pretty popular. He is underrated as a comedian as far as I am concerned, he is pretty talented.

 

[tzimize]

Sooooo....Kevin Smith is mainly a disappointment because he's been continuing to make mostly stuff that is similar to his own work, and not moved on to make stuff that is like...something else? Thats what I got out of this, and it doesnt make nearly as much sense as the stuff you usually do Bob.

Avengers is like most Joss Whedon work and its brilliant. Pretty sure you like that one Bob, and its typical Whedon fare. Also, didnt you do a show about how we should stop flaming Michael Bay for making Michael Bay movies? Isnt this a bit....hypocritical?

You also mentioned Robert Rodriguez in part 1. Did he not live up to expectations?

I think I remember in one of the reviews of Rodriguez' films Moviebob mentioned that he's stayed pretty much the same.

I get the impression that it is:
Kevin Smith - Wasted potential.
Robert Rodriguez - Stayed the same but is still pretty good.
Tarentino - Lived up to his potential.

Ah well, we conclude another part series on The Big Picture, and they're usually fun. I'll just sit by and wait for the next one.

And yet in all three cases none of their actual product changed. Tarantino is still making the same over the top violence fests with snappy dialogue that he started. if anything he has regressed a bit from Reservoir Dogs. Rodriguez remains a bit all over the map but mainly sticking with his Grindhouse style and Smith movies remain Smith movies. There are not any surprises, any great moments of art from any of them. They make entertaining movies that may or may not appeal to certain specific niche bases.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. Strange 3-parter I must say.

IMHO Kevin Smith still has it, and he doesn't need to dip into the View Askiewnaverse to do it. It's just that the harder he trys to please box offices the more generic his work becomes (Jersey Girl, Cop Out, Mall Rats...) Given a voice he can make a good film a given a budget AND a voice he can make a great film. (Dogma, Zack and Miri....)

I don't think he needs to do a Clerks 3 because he gave the whole world the perfect and fitting send off with Clerks 2. Then again I complained that he was sacrificing his principals when I heard he was going to do Clerks 2, and I was sorely mistaken.

The only thing that surprises me at this point is with all the Pop Culture Geek directors like Joss Whedon making it big, why the hell hasn't anyone tapped Smith to do a superhero movie yet?

Say what you will about the swings and misses of his career, I think if they pair him up with the right character he could make a damn good Comic movie.

SO MUCH AGREENESS!

 

[gorfias]

You also mentioned Robert Rodriguez in part 1. Did he not live up to expectations?

My expectations were much lower for him than Tarantino.

Tarantino isn't everything Tarantino should be though.

I do have to admit, I loved the first 3 Spy Kids, though, that isn't what RR is really known for.

 

[XavierPrice]

You know, I'd actually like to see your version of a 'where did they go wrong' for nerd icons. I think it could be an interesting series. Maybe for a slow month or so, do a different actor each week, or even make a whole short series out of it.

It'd probably be more entertaining than... whatever that comedy thing you're trying to do is with the multiple Bob variations.

 

[Robot-Jesus]

Aww I actually want to know what happened to Jack Black's career. He always seems like such a lovely person, but the last thing I saw him in was a Community cameo.

as far as I know he's doing alright. He starred in a bunch of movies and then worked on some other projects. I think his persona is a little too big to stay in the limelight for too long, lest people get sick of him.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Oh dear god, not Jack Black. I can't stomach Jack Black!!

 

[faefrost]

Making fun of religion was a bit edgy back then.

Is clearly false. It's always be the status quo to mock the Catholic church in the way the Kevin Smith did.

Meh, I don't remember that kind of satire being prevalent at that point in time. Having been raised Catholic, DOGMA stood out to me.

It was very common at the time, though not in a lot of big movies like Dogma, stand up comics of the 90s and South Park satirized the Catholic Church a lot and groups like Monty Python and the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have been doing it since the 1970s. Its likely you where just sheltered from most of it.

The strange thing about that is I have never met a Catholic Priest (and yes I am Catholic) that is not letter perfect in every word ever put forth by Monty Python. I think it must be a required course of study in the Seminary. Life of Brian is traditionally their favorite. Go figure.

Also a lot of Catholics and a lot of Priests don't necessarily see Dogma so much as an attack on the Catholic Church, as an attack on abandoning traditions and core values of faith in order to modernize said church. The whole turning scripture into "My Buddy Jesus" for popularity. The misuse of faith. Or the abandonment of it in favor of some pop culture pursuit. Some fun arguments can be had around it.

 

[vid87]

About Zack + Miri: I only saw it once when it was in theaters so I don't remember a lot about it (except for the constipation scene...good Lord that's burned into my brain). I know a scene doesn't automatically make a great film, but wasn't the part where Zack and Miri are doing a raunchy love scene and discover they love each other through a deep, meaningful connection that went beyond sex kind've, like, amazing? There's no dialogue for it - you just see the realization on both their faces and understand that something changed between them. Again, one good scene doesn't necessarily justify an entire movie and I simply don't remember if the rest of it was any good, but why when I hear about this has that part never come up?

 

[NoeL]

oh man, Jack Black.

So, once upon a time there was a movie called Crossworlds, which had a pre-stardom Jack Black in a story that's basically a DIO album for all the modern-guy-thrust-into-high-fantasy thereof. AND THEN THEY CAST JACK BLACK AS THE MAIN CHARACTERS FRIEND WHO IS ONLY IN TWO SCENES. Talk about wasting your Jack Black.

Before that he was the lead antagonist in The Neverending Story 3.

Also, the best thing JB's done was that mock movie Jim, Pam and Andy were watching in The Office where he's in love with an old lady.

 

[Raika]

You also mentioned Robert Rodriguez in part 1. Did he not live up to expectations?

Spy Kids 3D: Game Over and The Adventures of Shark Boy and Lava Girl say no, he really didn't.

Machete was fuckin' sweet, though.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

I never really got the appeal. Chasing Amy was pretty good, sure, and I'll give you Clerks as being fun and Clerks 2 being at least watchable, but beyond that I was not one on board the Ksmith train. He was always so into himself, and it felt like watching someone project too hard. He was the director equivalent of seeing a thoroughly mediocre high school football player say he would devote his whole life to football, and go pro, and win the Heisman. Yeah, it might happen guy, but you'd need a lot of help, a lot of practice, and you'd have to get a hell of a lot better at what you're trying to do, but more than likely, you'll find your life falling far short of your dreams.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Why do people dislike JB? I find him constantly funny, and the music references are always a bonus.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Maybe I'm missing something as I've never cared at all for Smith's work but I still don't really quite get why this needed three episodes to cover. He started out making movies that seemed to be on the cutting edge of cinema, he ended up making absolute garbage once the shine wore off and then transitioned into essentially becoming a parody of himself. I'd say that about covers it. *shrug*

 

[AD-Stu]

Wait... Zack and Miri was a Kevin Smith movie?!?

I didn't actually read anything about it so when I saw it I honestly thought it was a Judd Apatow movie. Never realised until now that it wasn't him