The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Rarhnor]

I noticed Bob conveniently ignored that men are indeed objectified in much the same way as women in things like trashy romance novels, daytime soap operas, TV shows like Desperate Housewives and Gray's Anatomy, or even movies like Twilight and I could go on. Last I checked there aren't hordes of men getting in line to buy soap boxes to stand on while they get all indignant on the internet about that though.

It's because men generally accept their objectification. Don't really know why, though.

OT: The problem doesn't lie in how women are portrayed, but about how women WANT to be portrayed. I find it silly to be honest.

Bob's argument builds upon men idealizing muscles and brawn, which isn't really the case looking at the kind of hate games like Gears of War gets. It specifically show that men (at least the gamer part) aren't able to look past the aesthetics. I don't really get that either, that people somehow can't accept that it's a fantasy they are looking at. It doesn't really matter who's fantasy, just that it IS a fantasy.

Why would I escape from a world where women/men are not fantasized? I wouldn't. I get enough of my realistic interaction with both genders in my daily routine.
Wouldn't it be logical to escape into a world (game in this case), and away from that reality. Isn't this one of the complaints, when people complain about realistic games? This realism encompasses anything in life, including realism.

People already get their daily dose of realism from, well...life. Fantasy builds upon escapism, so I really don't understand why someone would find it a problem that there are fantasies in media. I mean, men don't hate Twilight, because of how it establishes female fantasies, but rather that it is a shitty book series.
The ONLY real problem would be, if you expect your reality to live up to your fantasy. Though, that is a problem not to blame on the game, but on the society and individual.

Edit: Apparently, I'm not gamer or a geek, since I'm not misogynistic or sexist.

 

[Tokokizora]

I think we maybe taking a turn for the better with the new tomb raider game which from what i can tell is the pretty much gonna be like uncharted but with a female lead. I love that they even redid lara's character design to make her for one more realistic and more human

 

[mrhateful]

Also can we all please stop with women in games are portrayed sexist. Thing is if you play games designed 12 years old, and then complain about sexism that's like watching a teenage movie (American Pie, ect.) and say its sexists. Instead look at games designed for for a more mature audience such as neverwinter night (1,2), baldur's gate (1,2), Wither, mass effect and the list goes on.

 

[MonkeyPunch]

I really wish he had done the other subject he initially started out with...

Also don't agree on many points he makes on this video.
His whole Kratos comparison just doesn't make sense.

Any male character that is fat is usually always portrayed as dumb or silly, just like his reference picture, Rufus.

I'm so tired of this subject and people trying to say that it's not OK for women to be objectified in games because it doesn't happen to men, which it clearly does. Why do people always try and use that same old argument, which doesn't even hold water?

You know, if you're a middle aged, white, average size and weight, Christian or atheist, heterosexual male you really have nothing to say in this world and are to blame for virtually everything just by virtue of what you are.

 

[3quency]

Oh yes, the old "Don't you have more important things to worry about?" fallacy [http://www.2012hoax.org/fallacies#toc34]. AKA a cheap way of not responding to the argument present, or more simply, a cop-out.

Had you not taken what I said out of context and acted as though it was my entire case rather than a closing suggestion, I would've said you have a point. As it stands, however, you're just ignoring my arguments.

Please read my post again and respond to it in full, rather than acting as though all I did was suggest that we focus our attention elsewhere.

Tada!

Okay, from your original post, I've read it over and basically concluded three things about your argument:
1 - Bob concentrated on an argument that was pointless
2 - The Videogame Industry is not to blame for sexism, which apparently Bob claims it is
3 - Instead of pointing out "easy" targets in media, we should be concentrating on real societal issues with regards to sexism.


My response:
1 - I have to disagree here. I feel that this argument does need debunking because I see it used as a defence all too often. The whole "men are objectified too" thing is extremely problematic to me and I could really do with seeing it less. Plus, Bob only has five minutes for these. He had to concentrate on one issue or he'd barely have time to make a coherent argument.

2 - No, the videogame industry is not to blame for sexism. Nobody ever said it was. It does however, feature a great deal of it in the content it produces, and that is a problem that should be addressed. Something "as utterly trivial as a videogame" is the keystone for a huge amount of youth culture, and the kids and teenagers raised playing these games will draw information about the world from them, as well as how to react to the world. This is why kid's shows have anvilicious aesops - to make sure the kids don't get taught how to be dicks.

3 - Media is, was and always will be reflective of the culture that produces it. Furthermore, media since its inception has in turn affected society. If there is a problem in the media industry, then it is reflective of a problem or is exacerbating the problem. Either way, addressing a format that reaches millions of people and altering its content for the better is a much stronger way to combat sexism than say, kicking one solitary misgynist in the nuts. It's just the way our culture works.


If I've misunderstood any of your points, let me know.

Sorry if this seems antagonistic, it isn't meant to be.

 

[acosn]

Sorry Bob but work place discrimination exists on an absurd number of levels and at the end of the day the only avenue through all of it is having connections.

You can't get a job if you're old. You can't get a job if you're young, or rather inexperienced. But no one will ever tell you how much is enough. You can't get a job if you're ugly enough- yes even men. Women statistically have higher standards for what makes a male look good than the other way around. You can't get a job if you're not personable enough. If you look too good then you're perceived to just be a bag of air masquerading as a human. If you're too fat you're regarded as a liability, and if you're too skinny then you're just anorexic. Hell, you can't find a job for the simple fact that you've been unemployed long enough.

At the end of the day the things I find so irredeemable about the Tropes project is the simple fact that she's asking for money, apparently can't work her head around how the business works, and has to focus on this over legitimate feminist issues. It's quaint that depictions of women in video games undercuts her self image, but most people can look at that sort of thing, recognize the target audience and move on. It's bad enough that she can't even spot contradictions in her own argument as you see with one of the rewards being stickers of female characters heads photo-shopped (poorly) onto male characters when she also recognizes the female-who's-just-a-guy-with-boobs trope. Then again, she probably can't recognize IP infringement either. You don't off Scot free because you Photoshopped something you didn't create onto something else you didn't create.

Things could be better but when women are so fixated on the pay gap (an ironic myth when you actually study employment demographics. Women make less money yet the ten most dangerous jobs in the US are still dominated by men, men work longer hours, and men in leadership positions still value profit over a good working environment) I have a hard time taking employment discrimination seriously. Employers discriminate over everything. Welcome to life.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Darn, Moviebob, here I was thinking my opinion of you couldn't drop any lower.
Probably the most painful part of the clip was "women won't get a job because they look mediocre but men will because who cares about what men look like". Idk how it's like in the good ol us of a, but here in the EU, it's pretty much identical.
You don't look as fit as an underwear model(either male or female)? Gratz, you just lost out on a TON of job opportunities.

The entire thing just stank of double standards and white knight nonsense to me and I'm not even anti-feminist

Don't know about the example, but I agree with the sentiment.

Male distaste for feminists isn't a videogame based phenomenon, men aren't annoyed because women are lobbying for Lara to have smaller breasts. Believe it or not...it goes deeper.

I haven't watched much Feminist frequency, because...she seems like a bit of a prat, by my reckoning. I will plug girlwriteswhat as someone who speaks about gender issues that is worth listening to.

http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

She is awesome.

 

[corrosiveblood]

I think we maybe taking a turn for the better with the new tomb raider game

no we don't, because:
- In this game you get to rape lara if you won't help her! And they make her weak, so she can do it only with your dirty musculine help!
Somehow femitists don't like new lara either

 

[Rednog]

I still face-palm when I hear talk about the whole And yes before anyone goes "oh but there are much bigger problems with this controversy," I know. But if she can complain about something like Legos when there are huge human rights violations in the world in regards to females, I can complain about parts of her nonsense.

If we can't fix sexism here how can we hope to fix it elsewhere. Your argument doesn't hold up. There are millions starving in other countries so I shouldn't give money to the local food bank?

I never understand why so many people use the doctrine of relative filth. Maybe because it's easier than trying to fix the problems. It's worse somewhere else so why should I bother fixing something not as bad but closer to home.

You kind of missed the point, I put that there because I anticipated someone excusing her bs and saying oh you should over look her faking being a gamer and her baiting 4chan, she's doing it for feminism as a whole. I didn't condemn her for choosing to do an insignificant topic like Legos when there are much larger problems in the world. I'm condemning her presentation of her topic, not the topic itself. There is a big difference.

 

[Paragon Fury]

1: The portrayal of sexes in video games is no different than the portrayal of sexes in any other form of storytelling over the course of human existence, right back to the earliest identifiable "humans". Since the beginning, men have always been about ability over appearance, and women about appearance over ability. And for the longest time, keeping this distinction has been very important for the survival of the human race; it is only the last couple hundred years that society has advanced to the point where the distinction between the two sexes may no longer be relevant. Thus our storytelling reflects it. Expecting our storytelling to somehow do a 180* almost overnight in this kind of time frame is beyond crazy; these things take time and effort, and the cultural/social situation must stay stable in a way that supports that change for a very, very long time.

2: We all understand what the issue they have is. But you know what? From all intents and purposes, women as a whole don't seem to give a flying fuck about putting themselves in a position to change things. They seem content to direct the men to change things, and when we try and fail or admit we don't know how because we're not women and we don't know how you think, what you want and haven't had the same life experiences as you have, it does nothing but make women more angry.

But instead of actually trying to fix the problem themselves, women seem content to just yell and pout more about the issue, and threaten not buy games - which really has no effect, since you're usually not an important part of the market of the game you're boycotting anyway.

3: It think most of the legitimate rage that she got was that she made $150,000 dollars for something that many of us could've done in 1 episode FOR FREE. As a matter of fact, didn't you, Moviebob, do an episode of Game Overthinker that addressed exactly what she is talking about.....for free?

 

[Comando96]

Yay an episode of The Big Picture which relates slightly to the... Big Picture. (not that I'm complaining about the random movie & comics info but the title is horrendously misleading most of the time).

News flash: Women are people too.
Next week: Politicians lie, bears shit in the woods and the Pope etc.

The only difference between women are people and the rest up there is that sadly we(ie the people with the power) keep forgetting that fact and need reminding.

Anyway gaming needs to analyze this shit more and stop being so fucking defensive ALL THE FUCKING TIME and moderate its response... there is a difference between a few odd comments... and half of them >:|
Internet I am disappoint.

 

[4RT1LL3RY]

So...

Valve is doing pretty awesome then. A Physics Phd is saving the world in a suit to boost his survivability being assisted by a multiracial group of rebels with a main female lead who has realistic body proportions and is a total badass. The only stereotype might be that goatees make you awesome.

The game industry needs more Gordon Freeman's and Alyx Vance's.

 

[Comando96]

for free?

On a weekly commission
I wouldn't call that "free" but yeah he has the luxery of choosing his job and decided to takle this issue as he had an opinion and a way to voice it... in over 140 characters

This is a 5:40 video. If he had gone out of his way to do double (or pushing towards that limit as the Escapist gets pissy about longer vids) hence double his demanded workload then I'd have considered it free
If he has done it elsewhere then you can call that publicity which creates demand for his commissions which, (you get the idea).

 

[Blade_125]

You kind of missed the point, I put that there because I anticipated someone excusing her bs and saying oh you should over look her faking being a gamer and her baiting 4chan, she's doing it for feminism as a whole. I didn't condemn her for choosing to do an insignificant topic like Legos when there are much larger problems in the world. I'm condemning her presentation of her topic, not the topic itself. There is a big difference.

Appologies Rednog, I misunderstood your post. I am not a believer in the ends justify the means. I haven't watched her lego video, although I saw a snip in her promotional video and thought it a bit unfair to be negative on the amle firefighters. To be a firefighter the requirement is how much weight can you carry, so of course it will be predomenantly male.

However I do think the argument over the controller not being on to be a rather silly argument (I didn't even notice when I watched as I was listening to the arguments). We don't know what was going on and it could have been poor editing. Even if it isn't we don't know if she is a fake gamer or not based on what we saw. Most likely it was simply trying to act for the video.

 

[CAPTCHA]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

WHAT? It got to 150.000?
I thought it was pretty manipulative of her to ask for much money (6000) just to talk about a topic she knew quite a few people cared about.
I predict that the videos will not be well researched, well made, or all in all good.
I am not saying the sexism anger thrown towards her is justified or anything, but i do thing that she's using the fact that many people care about this topic to make some quick money.

Go watch the vids. You will find that you are completly correct in your prediction of the vids being poorly researched. They are pretty much just lists ripped from TV tropes, with the occassional factual error thrown in. The vids show no sign of the methodology or objectivity and are presented in a hostile and militant manner (women are refered to as "we"/men refered to as "men").

Kickstarter, man. One of the greatest tools for exploitation the internet has ever seen.

 

[mronoc]

This is a world view completely lacking in any sense of nuance, there's no reason everything has to be one extreme or the other. Expecting people to be prudent and responsible in their behavior and in the creative works they produce isn't advocating censorship.

Censorship is a cold, binary thing, "Material X contains content Y, content Y is inappropriate, material X is banned." This is a call for conversation: Rather than deciding that something is objectionable based solely on content, we should be looking at the context of that content, and what the overall works says about that content, and then not ban something if we decide that what it's saying is objectionable, but simply be aware of the potentially harmful messages to which we're being exposed.

As far as a solution to objectification, that should be fairly obvious: Creators should treat female characters as they would any other, give them fully developed personalities, and have them act (and dress) logically within that personality. Objectification doesn't come from sexualization, but through sexualization lacking any other context, i.e. a female characters with no defining characteristics beyond their body and their sexuality.

i do agree with you to a point, first off yes i think we tend to go way to far one way or the other with issue, and i completely agree that censorship is one slippery slop. i really wish we, as humans, could find middle points on these issue, but looking at things like Foxs News and well pritty much any other 24 news channel i relise that there will always be crazys and they always have to loudest voice.

however, as my lit. teacher once said, for the most part, men suck at making good female charioteers, now there are exceptions but for the most part he is right, i think it's because most of us men don't know what motivates women, that is why i think the real solution is to bring is women writers, have story conferences, hash out motivations, wants needs, and the like. really i think most of the sexism in video games is laziness. just my thoughts on the matter

I think the real issue is the assumption that what motivates women is so different than what motivates men. People should just start writing humans, obviously gender informs who a characters is in regards to how they respond to expectations society places on them based on gender, but it doesn't define a person more than any other singular aspect. It would seem to me that if a writer can't understand how expectations based on gender shape the outlooks of female characters in contrast to male characters, they he's probably glazing over that aspect in regards to male characters as well, in which case it wouldn't matter whether or not he understood gender from a female perspective, because all characters would effectively be genderless, but then male writers assumes that the female character have to behave differently, because they're female, and they end up producing an effort comes across as false and arbitrary.

Totally agree on the laziness idea, but really that just means it's more important to be aware of what we're consuming. It's a lot easier to subconsciously normalize ideas when no one realizes it's happening. If someone's intentionally saying something insidious about gender, it's pretty easy to pick out.

 

[Paragon Fury]

So...

Valve is doing pretty awesome then. A Physics Phd is saving the world in a suit to boost his survivability being assisted by a multiracial group of rebels with a main female lead who has realistic body proportions and is a total badass. The only stereotype might be that goatees make you awesome.

The game industry needs more Gordon Freeman's and Alyx Vance's.

I'd say it needs less Alyx Vance.

She doesn't do anything, is basically useless, the only person who listens to her is a person who is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of refusing her or talking back, and the only helpful thing she has done is make a robotic dog that occasionally saves you and occasionally lifts a heavy object for you and could easily be replaced by A: More Bullets and B: The Gravity Gun.

She basically the "girl next door" trope personified.

Gaming needs more Dr. Hasley/Cortana (Halo), Pre-Other M Samus Aran(Metroid), Bayonetta and Lightning (FFXIII).

 

[darksakul]

Oh yes, the old "Don't you have more important things to worry about?" fallacy [http://www.2012hoax.org/fallacies#toc34]. AKA a cheap way of not responding to the argument present, or more simply, a cop-out.

Had you not taken what I said out of context and acted as though it was my entire case rather than a closing suggestion, I would've said you have a point. As it stands, however, you're just ignoring my arguments.

Please read my post again and respond to it in full, rather than acting as though all I did was suggest that we focus our attention elsewhere.

Tada!

Okay, from your original post, I've read it over and basically concluded three things about your argument:
1 - Bob concentrated on an argument that was pointless
2 - The Videogame Industry is not to blame for sexism, which apparently Bob claims it is
3 - Instead of pointing out "easy" targets in media, we should be concentrating on real societal issues with regards to sexism.


My response:
1 - I have to disagree here. I feel that this argument does need debunking because I see it used as a defence all too often. The whole "men are objectified too" thing is extremely problematic to me and I could really do with seeing it less. Plus, Bob only has five minutes for these. He had to concentrate on one issue or he'd barely have time to make a coherent argument.

2 - No, the videogame industry is not to blame for sexism. Nobody ever said it was. It does however, feature a great deal of it in the content it produces, and that is a problem that should be addressed. Something "as utterly trivial as a videogame" is the keystone for a huge amount of youth culture, and the kids and teenagers raised playing these games will draw information about the world from them, as well as how to react to the world. This is why kid's shows have anvilicious aesops - to make sure the kids don't get taught how to be dicks.

3 - Media is, was and always will be reflective of the culture that produces it. Furthermore, media since its inception has in turn affected society. If there is a problem in the media industry, then it is reflective of a problem or is exacerbating the problem. Either way, addressing a format that reaches millions of people and altering its content for the better is a much stronger way to combat sexism than say, kicking one solitary misgynist in the nuts. It's just the way our culture works.


If I've misunderstood any of your points, let me know.

Sorry if this seems antagonistic, it isn't meant to be.

This is one of the more intelligent Comments I saw this whole thread.

Also can we all please stop with women in games are portrayed sexist. Thing is if you play games designed 12 years old, and then complain about sexism that's like watching a teenage movie (American Pie, ect.) and say its sexists. Instead look at games designed for for a more mature audience such as neverwinter night (1,2), baldur's gate (1,2), Wither, mass effect and the list goes on.

I really wish he had done the other subject he initially started out with...

Also don't agree on many points he makes on this video.
His whole Kratos comparison just doesn't make sense.

Any male character that is fat is usually always portrayed as dumb or silly, just like his reference picture, Rufus.

I'm so tired of this subject and people trying to say that it's not OK for women to be objectified in games because it doesn't happen to men, which it clearly does. Why do people always try and use that same old argument, which doesn't even hold water?

You know, if you're a middle aged, white, average size and weight, Christian or atheist, heterosexual male you really have nothing to say in this world and are to blame for virtually everything just by virtue of what you are.

Yes Video games is a small part of a larger society but video games is a reflection of that society's collective mentality. There are over sexualized females in games because people will buy it not the other way around. We as a society are teaching the wrong lessons on how young boys view females and female sexuality. That women are not sex objects they are people.

Maybe it is time for an heterosexual male to approach the feminist and tell them I agree with your message (if not the whole message than some of the points that are needed to be made).

Maybe it is time for us men to MAN-UP and agree that the over sexualization of women is getting out of hand.

Real men are not intimidated what a feminist wants to say, a real man would take the time to listen and hear EVERYONE out. And only after listening to the others argument would make a intelligent reply of what we think and feel in a mature and constructive way. And maybe you come to say as a actual man "hey you make some valid points" or "I do not see that this is the case because of ..." Not name calling or making a witch hunt out of the issue.

I am not saying tropes is correct, but if we over react you only proving her point.