The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Blade_125]

I meant to let this thread go, but I couldn't let this one go without commenting, since you have completely missed my point.

First off, comparing humans and primates is not valid. Even though we share a common ancestor, that doesn't make us all that similar now. A species that can produce cognitive thought can make ethical decisions. When a society says it is the womans fault that she was raped what mesage does that send to the men? It isn't about finding someone attractive. I am married and will still pause for a glance at a woman I find attractive. I also control myself. I love my wife and don't want anyone else.

Talking about the issue is how we fix it. The whole issue is the view society has. If women are looked at as second class citizens then they will be treated as such. If society looks at them as equals then they will be treate as such. The key is to change societies views. That is what you don't seem to understand. It is also why Bob's video, the feminist frequency video's and others are good things. They make people like you and I question how we treat women.

If you have a better idea on how things change please share it with the rest of us. If it is a mind blowing idea then I will fight with you to implement it.

No it's not, because you're not talking about the right subject. Talking about how someone shouldn't be seen as sexual doesn't address Rape at all. Their have been rapist who claimed that the elderly grandma in an ultra conservative night gown was "too attractive". It is a bogus argument that Rapist and Feminist alike use, and is irrelevant.

You would have a point if the discussion was only rape, but I am talking about equal rights and the way women are treated. I think perhaps that the way society depicts women might lead some men to feel it is fine to rape a women. I think that would be date rape in most cases (no means yes), but I am not a psycologist, so I can't say for certain.

I'm not sure how this conversation turned to discussing rape. Probably my fault in how the conversation went. My real point is that if women are sexualized so that it is all they are considered as to have value then that is a problem, and I doubt you would really deny that. That is where I mean education and enlightment will help change societies view. Someone else commented that this can be subjective, and while that is true to a degree I don't think you will find many courts in a democratic (or even a lot of non-democratic) countries that will say any human being should be treated as less than a human being. So while there are places in the world where women are second class citizen, gays are killed, foreigners have no rights, it has been human evolution to get past those issues. Even in the western world we have a hard time getting past those prejudices. I can only hope that having these discussions more on all sorts of topics can help make people realize that we are all human and deserve to be treated as such.

All this thinking is exhausting. I think I'm going to go home and have a nap. Thanks for the dialogue Medv.

 

[yeti585]

edit: disregard this. If a mod sees this could you please delete this reply?

 

[him over there]

Seriously, it'd be like going to a buffet restaurant and insisting that everything on the buffet be made of chicken, because I like chicken. It has nothing to do with hating vegetables or anything... but it's clear I don't view vegetable-liking folks as equal to myself, as I'm too focused on what I like.

That was a pretty great post and I wanted to add to this portion of it here, continuing with the buffet analogy. The thing is not only is it selfishness, but fearfulness I feel. Think about it, most people don't like chicken ( hyper "masculine" ideal) because we legitimately think it's good but simply because we aren't to keen on vegetables, therefore we need to enjoy the complete antithesis of it. Plus we've had chicken forced on us because of this rather than finding a distinct but legitimate foodstuff. On top of that people are afraid that if somebody who doesn't like chicken demands that there are issues with it and thinks that we should have some veggie on our buffet we worry we'll never see our chicken again. It isn't so much an evil contempt or intrinsic misogynist hatred, merely a rut, a fear of disrupting the status quote and that our ideals and their ideals will be mutual exclusive is what is holding us back.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

In context that's not a logical 'leap.' The advertisement is encouraging passersby to strip a representation of a woman, on a subway, where thousands of women a year get harassed or molested. She points out that there is action taken to attempt to curb this behavior, and this ad directly runs counter to it.

Note: encouragement. Not "instruction," "compulsion," or "heartfelt endorsement."

So then by logic then all the people who state video games cause violence and whenever I see a violent ad for a movie, video game, or novel would encourage me a person walking down the street to cause a random act of violence upon another person.

Sure, if you ignore context. The problem is you're thinking in the black and white dichotomy of "hypodermic needle" or no effect at all. (Personally, I'd support the right of free speech (even speech I disapprove of and criticize) even if it had such power.)

What you can't ignore is that the ad is located in a subway train where molestation occurs. The ad encourages such behavior with a nude girl, in that location, which you can strip. It's not that the content or the audience's participation will make people decide that they should start stripping real women. It's that the ad is part of a culture that implicitly tells customers that molesting people is something that is approved, normal, and welcome.

Another thing to keep in mind: The difference between a work of fiction and an ad is that an ad always IS trying to encourage you to do something.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

They're less damaging, sure, because men have the institutional power

How does that work exactly? I'm less inclined to care about the unreasonable high standards the media has set about my looks because I rule the world from my one bedroom appartment? Newsflash: Men aren't a hivemind. We were treated just as bad throughout history as women.

but they absolutely exist, and *should be examined*. I would absolutely fund a Kickstarter that aimed to examine and dissect harmful male tropes like "All Men are Killers" or "Disposable Man" in games, provided it was a complement to this and not trying to argue her down.

CRITICISM IS BAD BECAUSE EVERY CRITIC IS A TROLL GAWDAMNIT KOTAKU SAYS SO.

But these tropes are also a reaction to sexist ideas of women. They can't exist in a vacuum.

Then make yourself a kickstarter and have fun arguing for masculism whilst holding a fundamentalist feminism point of view.

I'm done arguing with your strawmen re: it being a scam of any sort, but

"We were treated just as bad throughout history as women."

Are you serious? are you actually serious? Holy shit I cannot comprehend ignorance of this magnitude.

(And btw, criticism of her actual points, which we haven't seen yet, is totally legit. Making a video about BAWW POOR MEN LOOK AT HOW DISADVANTAGED WE ARE IN OUR VIDEOGAME PORTRAYALS, THAT FEMINIST ***** DOESNT KNOW WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT is not.)

If I had any talent for video editing or thought I'd be presentable in front of a camera, I absolutely would I think it's an important conversation to have as men, from a feminist perspective, which all men should fucking be because it's just decent.

But anyway, I'm done with you. I don't have the energy to waste on moving ignorant mountains.

 

[Swarles]

So, uh, not going to mention that it has well over $150k to do something that she's already been doing for no money whatsoever? Something that she obviously already has the equipment and tools for? Well okay then Bob, suit yourself.

 

[Riobux]

My problem with the proposal to make this video is this: There's already such a heavy force against poor portrayal of females in video games that yet another video about it is just pointless. The fact that she has made a lot of videos like this already (which are free) and now expects to be paid using costs that she fabricated from no where is only one of many reasons I feel generally disgruntled about the affair. I'll admit I'm part of the school of thought that men have their disadvantages in video games as well (which, in yet another feminist video, they're portrayed as the bad guys in this exploitative relationship), but I also believe that there are other groups that face extremely negative stereotypes in video games. The idea that she, like the rest of the swarm of self-righteous feminists (which continue to exist in sociology, my main academic field which ironically pushes the idea of equality), pushes the "flight of the female" without considerations of male problems as well as other problems. In terms of race problems, I can name pretty much the same amount of female protagonists as black protagonists, Far Eastern Asians are incredibly rarely protagonists, usually end up being sour characters who are antagonists and are usually stereotyped as knowing martial arts always and I can't name a single Middle Eastern character that has really been portrayed in a positive light. Not to mention there are sexuality problems where excluding characters that give you the choice of sexuality, I can name only one game that gives people with an alternative sexuality a positive image: Persona 4. Every other game, not only sexuality but transsexuality, is usually treated as either absolutely not mattering in any sense (where the character's sexuality is less of part of who he is and rather just more like a badge sown onto his backpack) or as comic relief by exaggeration.

That's what gets to me. If people want to fight for equality, I support them. I love it when I'm able to play or witness a female character who is genuinely interesting and strong. I've happily played female characters over male characters because the strength in them is more interesting rather than what feels like another trudge of "me man win combat". A case in point is Mount & Blade: Warband. I willingly play a female character who has to combat sexism in her direction by showing she's not only a soldier but also a leader worthy of not only owning her own land but also creating a kingdom. It's amazing to enjoy it. However, and this is something that happens academically in sociology, feminists over-state their plight over everyone else's plight. It's annoying and it's selfish to fight for your own rights and not for the equal rights of everyone. Not to mention, the fact she wants to make a Kickstarter disguised as a "I need money to make this program happen", when considering her history of making the program already shows she's just looking to be paid for her work via Kickstarter rather than say DVD sales is just downright pathetic. As harsh as it sounds, she seems like another Glenn Beck-esque individual, bantering and complaining just to make money rather than for any real purpose.

Edit: Add to that, the irony of feminism is they can be at times incredibly sexist but yet still taken seriously academically is revolting. Keep in mind, this is the same academic (that's the key word) area that would pretty much crucify you if you uttered a racist, homophobic or sexist-towards-female remark.

 

[Blind Sight]

Meh, I'm fine with the project. The discourse around it has clearly devolved into cries of 'sexist!' and 'feminazi!' however. I certainly don't care for Sarkeesian's work, I feel it's poorly analyzed and researched (she also seems to deliberately fail to contextualize examples to support her agenda as well). But I'm all for the idea of fan-backed content, and since her last update confirmed that the funds are going to her continued production of videos through full-time employment (which I see as consistent with the idea of 'investing' in projects) I see no problem.

That being said, just because I support her project existing, doesn't mean I won't criticize the shit out of the actual content of the videos.

 

[Evil Smurf]

big boob panty ninja is the breast best line of this video

 

[JerrytheBullfrog]

You are factually wrong.

No idea what part of my comment you're addressing. However, considering she's basically stating that she's going to take the money and use it as a salary for her and her "team" my predictions were correct.

Fine, I'll waste one more post on you.

At her not telling us what the money is used for. Let's go back to the beginning, shall we?

From the initial post [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games].

Creating these videos take a lot of time and money to produce. I will be researching and playing hundreds of titles from across the gaming industry (including some truly awful games that I wouldn?t wish upon anyone!). Your support will go towards production costs, equipment, games and downloadable content.

What this money is being used for - check.

Update #1 [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/229803]:

Since the funding has happened faster then I could have imagined and there seems to be an enormous amount of interest, here's what I'm going to do, for every $1,500 dollars I raise above my goal I'll do another one of the trope videos on my extended list. Some of these additional tropes are a bit more complicated and will require some more time and finesse to explain clearly. Check out the new tropes and goals below:

Yep, what the money is being used for.

Update #2: [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/233146]

$20,000 - Let's bump up the production quality!
I did factor in some minor tech upgrades and improvements into my original goals but with so much excitement around and attention on this video series I'd like to really bump up the quality and the professionalism as much as I can. It may not seem like it but FemFreq videos have been a little bit of a fly by night operation up until this point where the equipment is concerned. I've tried to use all the DYI tools and tricks out there to push my cheaper end equipment to get the best quality possible. With more funding I'll be able to increase the professionalism and quality of FemFreq productions for this series and future videos.

Some of the upgrades I'd like to invest in are: a wireless lavallière microphone (which will vastly improve the audio quality), a better studio lighting kit (so I will look less orange), a current generation editing computer/system, harddrives with expanded storage capacity (HD video takes up a lot of bytes), and I would also like to integrate some small After Effects animations to make the videos even more engaging. Achieving this stretch goal will help make this series even more awesome.

If we reach this production quality stretch goal, I will do another update with details on a few more ways that we can expand the Tropes vs Women in Video Games series including the possibility of creating a curriculum for teachers to use in classrooms.

Wow! That's a lot of telling people what this money is being used for!

Update #3 [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/237083]:

$24,000 - Tropes vs Women in Video Games Curriculum
I believe that video games and gaming in general should be integrated into classrooms and educational institutions to a much larger degree. With this in mind, I will create a curriculum with teaching guides and classroom activities to accompany this Tropes vs Women in Gaming video series. My hope is that this curriculum can serve as a small example of how discussions around gaming can be an important part of media literacy education. These mini-lesson plans and classroom exercises focusing on female representations in video games will offer teachers an easy way to encourage critical thinking, enhance media literacy skills and promote conversations about gender representations in the mass media with their students. This curriculum will be Creative Commons licensed making it available for anyone to download and use with their schools, organizations or families.

$26,000 - Bonus Video #2 - The Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games (and how to respond)

Creating a classroom curriculum? That almost sounds like she's going to be using the money for that!

The next three updates are all about the controversy and backlash, and response to that.

Update #7: [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/248956] (for backers only, it turns out)

But in between all that we've been discussing some exciting ideas for how to use the additional funds to expand the project in a really meaningful way. My team and I are going to take a few days to process everything that's happened and figure out exactly what the extended scope of this project will be.

The team is still discussing how to use a good portion of the new funds. Well, that's not a SPECIFIC, so--

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to work off the assumption that this type of backlash is going to continue throughout the project as I release each video in the series so with that in mind, I'm going to use some of the extra funds to beef up my online infrastructure by completely rebuilding and redesigning the Feminist Frequency website with security in mind.

Ah, there we go. Spending money to redo the site and beef up its security to protect against the backlash.

So here, we see that

1.) She has actually explained what the money will be going towards up to the point she planned for,

2.) She is trying to figure out what to do with all the money since it wildly exceeded her stretch goals, but they're speaking with backers for ideas,

3.) You clearly didn't actually look into this at all, did you? This was all right there on the goddamn Kickstarter page.

 

[PunkRex]

Once again I find myself kind of torn, both sides seem to be JUST as loud and obnoxious as each other. Its like the way both sides of the Mass Effect ending just completely ignored or looked down on the other side while the few actually making a good bloody argument were overshadowed.

Some people are dicks, im not surprised some reacted like they did, their dicks, but why so many have a problem with a women who does this sort of media study just looking at tropes in games, WHICH ARE THERE, seems so pathetic. However, why she needs SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much bloody money dispite the resources she already has seems greedy, people do this sort of thing every day for free afterall...

PunkRex, meet Blade 125. He has what I believe is a good conversation on if (I don't remember her name, but none of us are using our real names.....I hope. So lets call her...) Mrs.Tropes should or shouldn't get the donated money. So it's not just you guys talking, I'll say that I think that we should wait and see what she does with what's left after the videos are done. Then we can judge her by her actions. Ex. Well she A.Use all the money for the videos making them way to high quality to just be a Youtube video(no offence Youtube) B. Donate the money to a worthy&related issue. Or C. Buy a new CAR!
I am guessing B, but we will see.

Funny enough, shortly after posting I said to myself "Why am I bothered what OTHERS do with their money?". If shes honest it could be a very interesting look on gaming and if not... well im sure SOMEONE on the internet will give her what she deserves... somebody... im not gonna say who. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if folks give her money but what she does with it, personally I would coincider paying her for her work IF I got a sort of demo/sneak peek. I love a good discussion/debate between people proberly alot smarter then me but as I have no experience with her past work im unsure if it would be worth my time.

As you said, lets wait and see if she sucks.

 

[Farther than stars]

I'm suddenly reminded of that scene in "Friends". You know, the one where Rachel picks the hot male secretary instead of the qualified woman. With that illustration I'd like to point out that women are just as likely to pick employees based on superficial qualities as men are. And, although I agree with Bob that women don't often find themselves in those leadership positions, the ones who do can be just as amoral as men.
And when we find ourselves in a society in which both sexes have equal opportunities, women will have become emancipated at the cost of their image as the humble sex. The biases in employment will exist to the same degree; they just won't be gender specific anymore. I think that to solve the job issue we need to become more tolerant as society as a whole, should we want to see any discernible change in that scenario.

 

[ThrobbingEgo]

Sure, if you ignore context. The problem is you're thinking in the black and white dichotomy of "hypodermic needle" or no effect at all. (Personally, I'd support the right of free speech (even speech I disapprove of and criticize) even if it had such power.)

What you can't ignore is that the ad is located in a subway train where molestation occurs. The ad encourages such behavior with a nude girl, in that location, which you can strip. It's not that the content or the audience's participation will make people decide that they should start stripping real women. It's that the ad is part of a culture that implicitly tells customers that molesting people is something that is approved, normal, and welcome.

Another thing to keep in mind: The difference between a work of fiction and an ad is that an ad always IS trying to encourage you to do something.

Hope that clears things up.

Here is the problem I have with your argument. You are honestly saying that adults like yourself and I are just so weakminded that simply given the situation of seeing an ad like the movie "The Town" at my local bank has so much power over people that we are going to be encouraged to rob the bank.

I see an ad for scream while walking the city streets of LA and suddenly I am encouraged to kidnap someone and torture and murder them.

Do you really and honestly think people are so weakminded to let an ad control their actions as the SOLE reason upon their actions compared to more important factors like how each person was raised by their parents, their social interactions with men and women growing up, their work environment? One of the problems is that you say that people have NO control of their will once they are encouraged by advertisements. Might as well go buy some Wheat Things and interject myself into conversations cause Alex Trebek does it.

The other problem is that you are saying and she is saying that the Japanese culture actually finds molestation, groping and rape acceptable. I'm sorry but last I checked those are still crimes in that country and people get arrested. So how is it that while there is a clear cut LAW that forbids such acts that puts people in jail it is culturally acceptable. If the acts of molestation in trains was acceptable wouldn't that mean there wouldn't be a law against it? Are you honestly saying that what a minority does is culturally acceptable compared to the majority and governments that actually enforce the law and go out of their way to make a system like women only trains? I'm sorry but that argument falls apart right there. I don't see any group here trying to change the law in Japan to make molestation legal, do you? Cause until I see in Japan or in the USA that the law states that it is perfectly legal to molest women in trains it is NOT going to be cultural standard of that country.

Again, that's not my argument. I'm not arguing that people are powerless in the face of media. I'd argue that media can reinforce existing behavior by acting as part of a larger hegemony. To deny that would be to claim that all human beings are totally rational actors who only respond to the laws of the land and aren't in the least bit swayed by what other people (are represented to) think, say, or encourage.

It'd be just as absurd as the position you're trying to shoehorn me into.