The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

[Blade_125]

I don't care that she's making these videos, I care that she asked money for them. Plenty of people have done these kind of videos for free, but she needed 6,000$ to do them. And thanks to the internet she now has over150,000$ to put in her pocket. Wonderful job guys, no I'm sure she'll spend every cent of that on the tropes videos.

It really irks me that you earn as much money as you do. I don't think you deserve that much, and even though that doesn't impact me in the slightest I am still going to complain about it.

 

[Catrixa]

I hope you realize that now many people will expect a Jabberjaw episode sometime in the future. You can't open that pandora's box and not have to deal with the contents.

As for this week's box. Well said, though the issue of the appearance of female characters is one that hits in every media, as was touched on. And it seems to be a societal problem that can't really be fixed in this or that media representation, rather it's a solution that must be overarching, across all forms of entertainment.

I think the main problem is that, even among women (it seems, I make absolutely no claims to know what an individual thinks) is that no one wants to play as someone that just looks conventionally ugly. Even Mario who's a short, fat, hairy guy is a stylized short, fat hairy guy and thus still looks appealing, a real life Mario would probably be less so. Even ugly characters are generally designed to look "badass" and thus fulfill a fantasy.

And I've mentioned it before on this site, and again I don't want to make any assumptions but isn't being beautiful a fantasy for women like being a badass is for men?
And if that is the case, couldn't that also contribute to why nearly every female character has a super model appearance, even the ones who don't dress like they run their clothes through a lawnmower?

I'm not sure if anyone has responded to you yet, so I'm sorry if you've been bombarded.

As a ladytype, I'd like to say I like playing as beautiful badass characters . Usually the problem with ancillary female characters arises when being pretty is the ONLY thing they do, and the problem with main female characters (for me) being when I feel like I'm playing someone else's masturbation material. The most recent example of this is the armor in Tera Online (there are a billion examples lying around, if you haven't seen it yet), but the most personally frustrating for me has been the armor in Ragnarok Online. I have a tough time getting into a character, who I'm building as a tank, when they dress in a metal bikini. This usually makes me think, "Oh, well, they're not dressing like this for me. They're dressing like this for all the guys who are playing as girls, so they have something appealing to look at for the trillion hours it takes to reach max level." This can be really immersion breaking and (sometimes) depressing. Like showing up for a party and realizing you're not getting in without a top hat and monocle.

So, yeah, to some extent, you're right. No one really wants to play as a truly disgusting character (well, unless they do); most people want to play as an idealized version of themselves. I can just say, from personal experience, my ideal version of me isn't pretty-and-helpless or unreasonably-naked-but-awesome. I'd like a good looking character who dresses for the occasion.

 

[SilverUchiha]

First, yes. The knee-jerk reaction was incredibly stupid. It shows a large immaturity for gaming culture, but there are a lot of other things that show that as well. In short, it was a reaction that just about anyone would expect.

Second, I've also seen some of her other videos... and I'm certain I'll find plenty of arguments against them. In fact, I made a facebook post not too long ago addressing her videogame tropes video in a more mature, but somewhat satirical manner... (http://www.facebook.com/notes/silver-waseskuk/in-response-to-recent-feminist-frequency-shenanigans/10151836742750008). If you want to take the time to read it, Bob, go ahead. I just don't feel like rewriting the whole thing or summarizing it all here either.

What I will say from my response to her video, is that her project costing nearly as much as she asked for on kickstarter seems insanely high for gathering information on a subject that has already been covered by many others, much better, and with a much better way of presenting. But that's about it. I'm not opposed to her making her points or whatever. I'm just wondering why $6000 was needed to do it.

 

[nuba km]

While your last 2 points were pretty valid I have to say that your first point kind fails as that sexist dick who doesn't hire someone who he doesn't find attractive would do that whether or not video games exist (yes I mean the entire medium). I wish that I could think of the words to explain this in more detail but after finishing my last exam my brain is kinda not going to aid me.

Also it is youtube commentators they will find a way to complain about anything being horrible.

 

[Zayle79]

If you read the pitch, it will only amount to about 3 hours of video. And she's already put videos out, these aren't the first.

That's irrelevant. Did her other videos have $150K put into them? I doubt it; I've seen them. These ones do have that ridiculous amount of money poured into them, so I think we can deduce that they'll have higher production values. Elementary, dear Rainbow Dash.

Edit: My point is just that you can't say if something's budget was too high until it's made. That's like telling a AAA movie studio "Hey, don't you know that people make videos with cheap camcorders and Windows Movie Maker? Putting thousands of dollars into an hour and a half of video is just obscene!" If Sarkeesian really wants to put the money to good use, there's plenty she can do with it.

That remains to be seen however. The original goal was only 6k$. There's nothing that says she can't just pocket the rest. Hell, she could take all of it and give no videos, that's not even a problem according to the kickstarter rules. Obviously I don't think she's going to just take it and not use it, but I doubt she will use quite a bit, especially as more and more comes in.

It's stopped coming in, you know. The total funding is $158,917. It was finished 3 days ago.

Yeah, she could use whatever amount she wants and pocket whatever's left over, but I really doubt she will. Besides, when you fund a project, you know the risk; the people who gave her all that money did it in confidence that she would be honest and put it all into the videos, and I don't see any indication that she won't be doing so, though it's always a possibility. I find your lack of faith...disturbing.

Edit: Hey, 79 posts. I almost feel like I should start a new account and leave this one like it is for eternity.

 

[Amaror]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

WHAT? It got to 150.000?
I thought it was pretty manipulative of her to ask for much money (6000) just to talk about a topic she knew quite a few people cared about.
I predict that the videos will not be well researched, well made, or all in all good.
I am not saying the sexism anger thrown towards her is justified or anything, but i do thing that she's using the fact that many people care about this topic to make some quick money.

 

[ace_of_something]

I just want to say Saturday Night Slammasters was a weird game. Though I still sometimes use 'flapjack' as a way to describe obese characters.

on topic: My issue is why she needs so much money to do 'research' I guess we'll find out later. Everything else sounds fine to me.

 

[Pebkio]

Well... no.

Still ignore everyone. Ignore her film if you don't care about someone asking for money to make the same points other people have made. Ignore the people who posted hate-speech if you aren't the type to post hate-speech. Ignore me if you aren't apathetic... wait.

Anyway, stop giving a shit about this. 4chan is still out there, those people from the LUE had to go somewhere... and I bet about a tenth of them successfully made it with a woman so those few might have children... youtubers aren't going anywhere, and what's-her-name probably knows that hate-speech will get her attention anyway. You aren't going to fix the system this way... in fact, you're only feeding the system this way.

I'm slightly disappointed at half of you...

 

[iblis666]

so as a fat white male that looses out on jobs because of his body type im the white buffalo

*sigh*

the problem isnt that there is sexism in video games since many people play video games expressly to explore their fantasies. The real problem is that there isnt a larger variety in video games, for example getting an achievement for looking up a womans skirt is sexist but is perfectly fine as long as the opposite is allowed and gives an achievement.

As for body types i understand that developers use only a few standards to appeal to a larger audience such as the tall big boobed female or the ripped brown haired white guy but id love some variety. I want the shy disheveled nerdy girl with acne or the fat lazy guy that bitches about doing something in a funny way and gets tired or at the very least i wont the option for those characters.

If im playing a rpg to save the princess I would love to be able to choose the way my character and her character look or give the option to save the prince depending on sexual orientation of the character. The problem is for any of this to happen developers need to see that they will get a good return on their investment or they will keep giving us these cookie cutter builds.

 

[pyro42]

The entire sexism argument should be flatly ignored.

No progress is ever made and when push comes to shiv the only people left participating are the Women who want all me to die and the Men who think of women as Objects.

The biggest problem with the entire argument is that it is too subjective. The latest Sex Symbol in Japan is Nintendos Office Lady in their ads. Cultural boundaries are so erratic on what would be sexually exploitative of women would be anything and everything.

The ultimate result of the argument isn't any good ether.

Eastern Orthodox Catholics/Russian Catholics view Hair as Sexually Seductive. Therefor, women must wear head scarves.

Islam, any skin showing on a woman is too Sexually Seductive in public. Therefor, women must be fully clothed from head to toe.

Your argument ultimately falls to pieces, because you offer no valid solution, and can be pared down to Attractive Women Shouldn't Be Seen.

So which world do you want?

Do you want a world where women are free to exist as whatever tramp, harlot, stripper, engineer, teacher, or scientist they want to be?

Or do you want a world where women are not to be seen in public?

The path you're presenting Bob is the path that leads to women not being seen even though I know your intention is not to go that far. Your logic is the very logic that has been used to Oppress women the most.

This is a world view completely lacking in any sense of nuance, there's no reason everything has to be one extreme or the other. Expecting people to be prudent and responsible in their behavior and in the creative works they produce isn't advocating censorship.

Censorship is a cold, binary thing, "Material X contains content Y, content Y is inappropriate, material X is banned." This is a call for conversation: Rather than deciding that something is objectionable based solely on content, we should be looking at the context of that content, and what the overall works says about that content, and then not ban something if we decide that what it's saying is objectionable, but simply be aware of the potentially harmful messages to which we're being exposed.

As far as a solution to objectification, that should be fairly obvious: Creators should treat female characters as they would any other, give them fully developed personalities, and have them act (and dress) logically within that personality. Objectification doesn't come from sexualization, but through sexualization lacking any other context, i.e. a female characters with no defining characteristics beyond their body and their sexuality.

i do agree with you to a point, first off yes i think we tend to go way to far one way or the other with issue, and i completely agree that censorship is one slippery slop. i really wish we, as humans, could find middle points on these issue, but looking at things like Foxs News and well pritty much any other 24 news channel i relise that there will always be crazys and they always have to loudest voice.

however, as my lit. teacher once said, for the most part, men suck at making good female charioteers, now there are exceptions but for the most part he is right, i think it's because most of us men don't know what motivates women, that is why i think the real solution is to bring is women writers, have story conferences, hash out motivations, wants needs, and the like. really i think most of the sexism in video games is laziness. just my thoughts on the matter

 

[Sneezeguard]

The thing that bothers me about her whole kickstarter thing is there are some videos i've seen which claim she posted links to youtube video and kickstarter several times on 4chan and have image showing her spam posts on there.

If she did do that, then she pretty much baited the Misogynistic Horde to her youtube channel to her victimize herself and drum up support.

 

[Shirokurou]

Let's start a kick-starter on how Twilight is sexist to men, vampires, werewolves and native Americans.

Also, that Jabberjaw ep is a must now, Bob.

 

[Zayle79]

I don't care that she's making these videos, I care that she asked money for them. Plenty of people have done these kind of videos for free, but she needed 6,000$ to do them. And thanks to the internet she now has over150,000$ to put in her pocket. Wonderful job guys, no I'm sure she'll spend every cent of that on the tropes videos.

thank you for summing up the view point.

I think many on the interent are equating
rage of her asking for money for something she can do
with
rage of the subject matter

And honestly i think thats more her slight underhand to be portrayed as a victim in what is on some level a bit of a marketing ploy.

She didn't need the 6000 (which she should have saved for herself), she does not deserve the
150 000.

You know she didn't steal the money, right? People freely gave it to her. She certainly doesn't "need" $150K for the series, but I don't need dijon mustard for a ham sandwich. It's still better to have than not, and if I ask nicely for the mustard and someone gives it to me out of their own desire for me to have a tasty sandwich (I like this hypothetical person), what's the problem?

 

[cricket chirps]

I'ld like to take the time to appologize to Bob for having to read so many paragraph responses. As well as congratulate him if he read them all. ^_^
Gotta say i wouldn't want to be in your shoes right now Bob. But good luck.

 

[castlewise]

I've got nothing against the Tropes Vs. Women thing and its the kind of thing that needs to be around. My only beef is that their "fixed" female characters were dumb. Why use Peach in overalls and Zelda with Link's sword and shield when you could use *actual* good female characters? They are much more rare than they should be, but they do exist.

 

[pyro42]

I think the worst part of the whole Tropes thing is the fact she's gotten over 150,000$ and for what? To make what is basically youtube videos? That's absurd.

Take a look at this show, extra credits, yahtzee, etc... They make on average a 5 minute video a week and constantly put them out, she is making what amounts to 3 hours tops of videos and making way more than I'm sure anyone else gets paid, and for much less work too.

WHAT? It got to 150.000?
I thought it was pretty manipulative of her to ask for much money (6000) just to talk about a topic she knew quite a few people cared about.
I predict that the videos will not be well researched, well made, or all in all good.
I am not saying the sexism anger thrown towards her is justified or anything, but i do thing that she's using the fact that many people care about this topic to make some quick money.

again, she is not just going to be talking about women in video games, this is going to be a full fledged research project, I'm getting ready to go for my masters, and i have to do a big research project for it, that crap is expensive, some of the resources you have to pay for, now yes she is not doing a masters or doctoral thesis, but to do the in depth research that she is doing, takes money, trust me on this one.

 

[soh45400]

Isn't it also offensive to men to assume they all want skimpily dressed big-boobed women (or, if we're looking at Japanese stuff, 10-year old girls)?

Not everyone finds the same kind of body-type sexy. For example, I like Ivy's over-the-top design, but she definitely isn't sexy to me. She looks too silly for that.

Female characters I find attractive tend to be more realistically proportioned, even fat by the screwed-up standards of videogames, and even more importantly, funny and smart and interesting characters.

Pointing out examples of "sexist" characters in media is easy and pointless. Rather than focusing our energy on trying to make our media somehow more fair and honest (which is in and of itself a laugh, just look at films and TV series) we should focus our attention on how women are actually treated, you know, the stuff that actually matters.

Isn't how an issue is portrayed in the media indicative on how it is viewed in society?
And how exactly does complaining about video-games (and I'd like to remind you that this is a video-game forum) somehow make it impossible to also focus on how women are treated in real life?

Besides, I'm a fan of video-games, and I'd very much like to have interesting realistic female characters in them.

Not the most important cause in the world, true, but it's not like whining about it on the net (or even playing video-games) is ALL I do with my life.

This is true for most gamers otherwise X-blades, Blades of Time and Heavenly Sword and other games like that would have sold more. I am not sure but I believe even Dead or Alive doesn't sell much.
What does sell is Half-Life, Saints Row, Grand Theft Auto, Prince of Persia, Assassin's Creed. While I am aware none of these games have female protagonists, all treat women equally. Women are both support characters and are shown as being capable villains as well in these games, in fact all characters in these games are well made. Even God of War 2 and 3 fall in this category because of Athena , Gaia and Pandora and Kratos himself looking the way he does because even before becoming that he was a powerful soldier in ancient Sparta, those people were not weak and then Kratos became even more powerful after what Aries did to him.
I didn't even mention Portal and Portal 2 and Mirror's Edge all of which sold more and were praised more than the games that are considered sexist.
And no matter how much you shout at them people who can't write good characters will not write good characters. And these writers will forever be punished with bad sales.