The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Machine Man 1992

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itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
jmarquiso said:
samus17 said:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE
Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.
Then make them listen! Tell developers you want more games with strong female protagonists! Tell them you want shirtless hunks to oogle! You have more power than you realize; if publishers realize they have an untapped market, they'll clamber over each other to tap that (see what I did there?).
Video series like the one there is so much resistance to are very much in line with what you are suggesting 'they' do. Raise their voices about the inequality.
Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, how about positive reinforcement? Surely there are plenty of female game designers and producers out there, maybe instead of complaining, Anita could say, use the loads of money she has to finance a game? Just a thought.
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

There is a place in the world for commentary, negative and positive. Pointing out the negative aspects of a thing promotes a cultural conversation about it, and this is a conversation that we all should be having. It's a conversation people want to hear. She only asked for $6k to produce the series, and given what little I know about the costs involved in producing videos, it didn't seem entirely unreasonable. That she's had more than $150k donated is indicative of the fact that people want to hear what she has to say and it is not my place, or yours, to tell her what she should and should not do. That's up to her.

If you feel your idea is vastly superior to hers, and if you care enough about it, back up your own rhetoric and start a fund of your own, and then you can do whatever you like with it.
Oh, so just because I have dick that automatically makes my suggestions invalid? The woman makes roughly 400% more money than she needs to make her little video series, I'm offering a means for which the extra 144K can be used to fix the problems she sees. I mean god forbid she displays some agency besides bitching about on the internet and waiting for someone else to fix these problems.

See, what you're doing is exactly what detractors of the feminists use to strawperson the movement: someone who happens to be a man makes a suggestion on how they could accomplish their goal, and people like you jump down their throats for "mansplaining".

Don't post shit on the internet and expect people to refrain from criticizing it.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Tenmar said:
ReiverCorrupter said:
I'm a bit lost here on your stance cause talking about personal liberty and letting developers create the content they want to create has pretty much been my stance on this whole issue as seen from the news post on this very forum about the whole kickstarter project.

Cause I think you are quoting the wrong person here in terms of getting their attention. If you are trying to get my attention then I don't know exactly where we exactly disagree upon.
Yeah, I was agreeing with and adding to what you said. Sorry for the confusion.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Aug 3, 2011
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Forget games, they are not the issue. Aim your guns at magazines and models that are airbrushed to perfection and cause real woman problems with there bodies. Games are unreal and i dont know of any woman that feel insecure due to Lara or beat em up person. Magazines on the other hand cause woman to have eating disorders and problems with there figures and trying to be like that airbrushed unrealistic bimbo. Atleast in games they are obviously unrealistic. Magazine models look like reality to woman.
 

Joseph Alexander

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Jul 22, 2011
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given her actions of posting and spamming her vids in the-places-that-shall-not-be-named, nitpicking pieces from the completed work, ignoring the context of said works, walling off any form of group review UNTIL NOW, and playing the damsel in distress(irony at its finest) at even the slightest attack.

my general feel of her is that of a troll using white knight complex and women's pride to personal gain, whither that be the erroneously given money or the overvalued E-fame.

TL;DR: this is a shit-storm of her own making, and thats just what she wanted.
 

itsthesheppy

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Mar 28, 2012
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Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
jmarquiso said:
samus17 said:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE
Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.
Then make them listen! Tell developers you want more games with strong female protagonists! Tell them you want shirtless hunks to oogle! You have more power than you realize; if publishers realize they have an untapped market, they'll clamber over each other to tap that (see what I did there?).
Video series like the one there is so much resistance to are very much in line with what you are suggesting 'they' do. Raise their voices about the inequality.
Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, how about positive reinforcement? Surely there are plenty of female game designers and producers out there, maybe instead of complaining, Anita could say, use the loads of money she has to finance a game? Just a thought.
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

There is a place in the world for commentary, negative and positive. Pointing out the negative aspects of a thing promotes a cultural conversation about it, and this is a conversation that we all should be having. It's a conversation people want to hear. She only asked for $6k to produce the series, and given what little I know about the costs involved in producing videos, it didn't seem entirely unreasonable. That she's had more than $150k donated is indicative of the fact that people want to hear what she has to say and it is not my place, or yours, to tell her what she should and should not do. That's up to her.

If you feel your idea is vastly superior to hers, and if you care enough about it, back up your own rhetoric and start a fund of your own, and then you can do whatever you like with it.
Oh, so just because I have dick that automatically makes my suggestions invalid? The woman makes roughly 400% more money than she needs to make her little video series, I'm offering a means for which the extra 144K can be used to fix the problems she sees. I mean god forbid she displays some agency besides bitching about on the internet and waiting for someone else to fix these problems.

See, what you're doing is exactly what detractors of the feminists use to strawperson the movement: someone who happens to be a man makes a suggestion on how they could accomplish their goal, and people like you jump down their throats for "mansplaining".

Don't post shit on the internet and expect people to refrain from criticizing it.
I went ahead and bolded for you the parts where you're doing that thing I said you were doing that you claim you're not doing.

There's a few critical points where you're not really getting it. First of all is the supposition that your suggestions are necessary or even wanted. Why exactly do you think you have a better idea than she does? Not that you respect her at all, of course, or her "little" video series, which you are so far above and wiser than, of course. She has nothing to teach you, no. Nothing she could want to say would be of any interested to you because, haha, silly girl, you get it already. You're thinking two, three steps ahead!

See, you're not a bad guy. You're just helping her. She needs your help; and not just yours, everyone's! $150k+ is a lot of money and we certainly expect that she will know what to do with it! So of course you and so many others jump in with your helpful solutions; utterly unsolicited, completely spontaneous, dripping with condescension.

Nobody said your dick makes you opinions invalid. What I'm saying is that because you are male, society has been telling us, largely through the bullhorn of pop culture but through other sources as well, that we are more capable. We are smarter, bigger, stronger, faster, more capable, more reliable, more emotionally secure. Better leaders, better critical thinkers, more solid decision-makers... than women. This has been hammered home throughout childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, bombarded from every angle. And the end result is, a woman asks for $6k to make a video series about a subject she is passionate for, recieves a lot more than that amount from her supporters and fans, and the legions of men all across the internet, among whom you are a card-carrying member, rise up in resistance because of course she can't be trusted with all that money, she's going to screw it all up and waste everyone's time!

And the best part is you are so fully indoctrinated to the idea of male primacy, as it is the very soup you and I both swim in, that at the very moment you are reading these words, they sound like absolute madness to you. And that's why we need videos like the one she's going to be producing. Lot's more. Because the "men are superior" message is still out there, in force, and it's deafening. Whatever noise can challenge it is sorely needed.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Jun 4, 2010
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itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
itsthesheppy said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
jmarquiso said:
samus17 said:
Complaining that videogames cater to men is like complaining that the Oxygen channel caters to women; there's going to be pandering and NO ONE SHOULD CARE
Except there are other channels to turn to. Games have less options.

Oxygen came from women demanding it, and viacom realizing it had an untapped audience to sell advertising to. Games could have the larger market, too, if they just listen.
Then make them listen! Tell developers you want more games with strong female protagonists! Tell them you want shirtless hunks to oogle! You have more power than you realize; if publishers realize they have an untapped market, they'll clamber over each other to tap that (see what I did there?).
Video series like the one there is so much resistance to are very much in line with what you are suggesting 'they' do. Raise their voices about the inequality.
Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, how about positive reinforcement? Surely there are plenty of female game designers and producers out there, maybe instead of complaining, Anita could say, use the loads of money she has to finance a game? Just a thought.
You, like many others, are falling into the trap of suggesting that you have better ideas for this woman about how she could be spending her time. That perhaps she should be working directly with game developers rather than being all uppity and making noise you would rather not have to hear. You may or may not be aware that you're doing it, but it's known in the feminist parlance as 'mansplaining'.

Mansplaining is when a guy tells a woman (or anyone else, I suppose) that he has a better idea about what she is trying to do, or say. Putting himself in the automatic position of authority and talking down to that individual, educating them about the err of their ways or the superior way of going about something. Even if the intent is altruistic (I have no reason to believe you have anything but the best intentions in mind), it is condescending.

There is a place in the world for commentary, negative and positive. Pointing out the negative aspects of a thing promotes a cultural conversation about it, and this is a conversation that we all should be having. It's a conversation people want to hear. She only asked for $6k to produce the series, and given what little I know about the costs involved in producing videos, it didn't seem entirely unreasonable. That she's had more than $150k donated is indicative of the fact that people want to hear what she has to say and it is not my place, or yours, to tell her what she should and should not do. That's up to her.

If you feel your idea is vastly superior to hers, and if you care enough about it, back up your own rhetoric and start a fund of your own, and then you can do whatever you like with it.
Machine Man 1992 said:
Oh, so just because I have dick that automatically makes my suggestions invalid? The woman makes roughly 400% more money than she needs to make her little video series, I'm offering a means for which the extra 144K can be used to fix the problems she sees. I mean god forbid she displays some agency besides bitching about on the internet and waiting for someone else to fix these problems.

See, what you're doing is exactly what detractors of the feminists use to strawperson the movement: someone who happens to be a man makes a suggestion on how they could accomplish their goal, and people like you jump down their throats for "mansplaining".

Don't post shit on the internet and expect people to refrain from criticizing it.
DOWN WITH THE MANOCENTRIC MALEOCRACY!


"Mansplaining" LMFAO. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in quite some time.

Apparently these neofeminists have never heard of an ad hominem fallacy. Then again maybe logic is just another tool of the oppressive patriarchy. LOL. OH GOD, MY SIDES HURT FROM THE LAUGHTER.

I think Nietzsche explained my sentiment best when he said that "at times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid."
 

SkellgrimOrDave

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Nov 18, 2009
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SonOfVoorhees said:
Forget games, they are not the issue. Aim your guns at magazines and models that are airbrushed to perfection and cause real woman problems with there bodies. Games are unreal and i dont know of any woman that feel insecure due to Lara or beat em up person. Magazines on the other hand cause woman to have eating disorders and problems with there figures and trying to be like that airbrushed unrealistic bimbo. Atleast in games they are obviously unrealistic. Magazine models look like reality to woman.
This escapee speaks the truth....

Now watch it buried in the inevitable flamewar.
 

itsthesheppy

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Mar 28, 2012
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ReiverCorrupter said:
"Mansplaining" LMFAO. That has to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in quite some time.

Apparently these neofeminists have never heard of an ad hominem fallacy. Then again maybe logic is just another tool of the oppressive patriarchy. LOL. OH GOD, MY SIDES HURT FROM THE LAUGHTER.

I think Nietzsche explained my sentiment best when he said that "at times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid."
I cannot thank you enough for the support you're giving my case. I am not even being the least bit sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek. It can be difficult, sometimes, to give examples or talk about the 'problem' if it's not sitting right there for people to see. If you would be so kind, please continue posting so that I can use you as an example of the problem I'm talking about.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Jun 4, 2010
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DrVornoff said:
ReiverCorrupter said:
Apparently these neofeminists have never heard of an ad hominem fallacy. Then again maybe logic is just another tool of the oppressive patriarchy. LOL. OH GOD, MY SIDES HURT FROM THE LAUGHTER.
Apparently neither have you.
Lol. If I said said feminists were wrong because they're feminists that would be an argument ad hominem. Pointing out that someone is using an argument ad hominem, however, is not itself an ad hominem argument.
 

itsthesheppy

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Mar 28, 2012
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DrVornoff said:
itsthesheppy said:
I cannot thank you enough for the support you're giving my case. I am not even being the least bit sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek. It can be difficult, sometimes, to give examples or talk about the 'problem' if it's not sitting right there for people to see. If you would be so kind, please continue posting so that I can use you as an example of the problem I'm talking about.
If it's any help, I appreciate the presence of another media-literate person in this argument. If we ever meet in real life, remind me to buy you a beer.

It just astounds me how many guys are so weak in their masculinity that they feel threatened by feminism. Then they go and make utterly boilerplate, pedestrian observations about mass media that the rest of us were making over a decade ago and think they're the fucking George Gerbner.
I'm not sure it's a problem of being insecure in their masculinity. In fact, I think it may be the opposite; they are way too secure in it.

Not just in their self-identity as a male, but rather in the identity of 'masculine' that our society has built. The image of the pitch-perfect father figure, the King of the Castle gentleman who Knows Best. The king of the hill, master-of-the-household, alpha dog superior being. Our culture knows that these identities sell. We want to be that. We like to hear it, and we'll pay through the nose to hear it again and again.

The problem is, by and large we believe it. We buy into it, the image that we are superior, that we deserve better, and we weave it into our world. Feminine qualities are demonized and made to be synonymous with 'weak' and 'inferior'. Effeminate men are disrespected, emotions and deemed unmanly, a man who follows the directions of a women is whipped, or made a fool of; something to pity. And this message is everywhere and fed to us in a constant loop very nearly from birth.

So I don't think the problem is insecurity; it's over-security. Men who have bought in so fully to the fantasy their culture has given them that they've made it reality, or at least their reality. A little insecurity might actually go a long way to making things better for everyone.
 

fwddgs

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Dec 25, 2008
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Umm... I'm sorry. I agree with the vast majority of what Bob says here. But I do have to raise a point. Body dysmorphia, though more common in women, does exist in men and is worsened by the media and societal pressures.
My scales read 220lb. The electodes say 10% body fat. The weights at the gym say I can bench press about 220lb. The mirror shows me Dr Robotnic. A sphere of flab with 4 matchsticks poking out the side. Every male character in any game or TV programme I've seen that doesn't have a sixpack is either an idiot, an embarrassment, evil or Mario (YMMV on whether he's an idiot, an embarrassment or evil).
I know that women are SORELY damaged by the video game industry. I know that we do still live in a disgustingly male dominated world. I'm trying to do my part to fix that wherever I can.
But I really don't like it when I'm told that my problem doesn't exist because someone else has it worse.
I'm sorry. I'll go away now.
 

itsthesheppy

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Mar 28, 2012
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DrVornoff said:
itsthesheppy said:
The problem is, by and large we believe it. We buy into it, the image that we are superior, that we deserve better, and we weave it into our world. Feminine qualities are demonized and made to be synonymous with 'weak' and 'inferior'. Effeminate men are disrespected, emotions and deemed unmanly, a man who follows the directions of a women is whipped, or made a fool of; something to pity. And this message is everywhere and fed to us in a constant loop very nearly from birth.
I'm not disagreeing with this assessment, but I do think it's insecurity because of how defensive they are. If they truly believed they were superior, they would probably be more dismissive. Instead, they're being panicky and hostile, quick to shoot down anyone who says the issue of objectification is real or that games are somehow part of it. They come up with the flimsiest excuses imaginable, and half of them don't even seem to believe the crap they're saying. They fold the instant they're challenged directly by someone more knowledgeable than them.

A person who is secure in their position wouldn't be seeing threats were none exist so consistently.
Entirely possible. I just feel that what I've been personally seeing is a lot of dudes acting superior and dismissive, as you say. Talking down about the project, saying how she's wasting time and money, and how their ideas are better. curiously, all of their ideas involve her shutting up.

BTw: You might find this video enriching-

http://vimeo.com/44117178
 

Roman Monaghan

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Nov 20, 2010
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Well fuck, a Bob video I can't dispute or disagree with in any way. Does this mean Bob is going back to his old days of not sucking as opposed to spewing his arrogant, ignorant bullshit anymore?

Is it to much to say I'm crossing my fingers? I mean, I'm a Sonic fan, and everytime a new game is announced I allow myself to hope, and every time I'm crushed. So don't do this to me like they do, Bob. Don't raise me up only to push me back down ='c

Also, to remain ontopic I guess, I kinda like when people comment with stuff like "well sure, but still this!" like as if pointing out an exception to what was stated completely disproves it. Yes, men have body dismorphic issues too. That doesn't mean dick, sorry. This isn't a science, it's sociology: showing one example of how this doesn't apply doesn't make it untrue.