The Big Picture: Who's Afraid of Captain America?
- Thread starter MovieBob
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No, not fighting! Still do war, but with paintballs. I have had that idea for 10 years now!
Too bad the Netherlands don't have an awesome superhero... Like a dude with the traditional clothes, you know, clogs [http://www.hollandsouvenirshop.nl/hollandsouvenir/images/B_441629_b.jpg] and rear-view mirrors [http://www.rml2.nl/ckv1/images/mode.h1.jpg]...
Too bad the Netherlands don't have an awesome superhero... Like a dude with the traditional clothes, you know, clogs [http://www.hollandsouvenirshop.nl/hollandsouvenir/images/B_441629_b.jpg] and rear-view mirrors [http://www.rml2.nl/ckv1/images/mode.h1.jpg]...
Dear Moviebob,
When asking the rest of the world for some nationalistic insight, please do not strengthen the USA-stereotype and make the correspondig picture that of a globe that shows the rest of the world and not just the American continents.
Thank you!
A fan from another continent.
When asking the rest of the world for some nationalistic insight, please do not strengthen the USA-stereotype and make the correspondig picture that of a globe that shows the rest of the world and not just the American continents.
Thank you!
A fan from another continent.
Agree with ALL of the above and would like to add Doctor Who and the Jamie Oliver mention...Grouchy Imp said:
OK he's an annoying tit but here's why he's annoying. He's right. Lets face it (and bring it back on topic here) the last great American hero exported to everywhere was Ronald McDonald with his amazing powers to obesify (heh made up a word, how about that) people.
I've not actually encountered anything controversial about the fact that he's Captain 'America' other than a few concerns early on which seemed groundless and now forgotten about.
Other than that what was this? A dull reiteration of stuff no ones cares about?
I watched and the only thing that impressed me was that bob refrained from drooling over women for a change.
That's eerie, I had a similar idea (again) when I was playing Tekkan today.
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of Captain America, never really have been, in fact I was happy when they killed him off because it seemed like Marvel was starting to mature.
Also, I don't think Ireland has a superhero... To the lab!!
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of Captain America, never really have been, in fact I was happy when they killed him off because it seemed like Marvel was starting to mature.
Also, I don't think Ireland has a superhero... To the lab!!
Wow, looks like you just went and found a solution for world peace there, Bob.
Oh, and we REALLY don't want David Beckham back, seriously, keep him! I'll take Jamie Oliver though, at least he's useful.
Oh, and we REALLY don't want David Beckham back, seriously, keep him! I'll take Jamie Oliver though, at least he's useful.
Not very interesting episode and besides the last thing this world needs is more nationalism, it almost always lead to right wing politics...
Bob, you're not the first person to thing of solving international conflicts with 1 v 1 hand to had duels. The problem is that you can't expect the losing country to just fold over because one got beat up by another guy. If the issue was really that important, war would follow anyway.
Alright first check out this link. It seems unconnected but I'll get to why it's important shortly:
http://usridernews.com/2010/11/16/bikers-escort-boy-to-school-to-protest-flag-ban/
Okay, as for the article:
To be entirely honest if your going to look at issues like this you might want to step back from your personal politics a bit. To say that a nationalist "Captain America" was hated by "everyone" is kind of ridiculous to be honest. It's a little more accurate to say that liberals and the 'peace at any price' crowd didn't like it, and that when you saw people with those attitudes acting as the writers, then yes... you did see Captain America get changed around quite a bit. As far as him doing the whole "Nomad" thing during the 80s or the more recent way he was written during the recent "Civil War", those were hardly universally praised portrayals of the character. In general the most vocal portion of the fandom community (which includes comics) tends to be left wing. The right wingers are out there,
but we tend not to be quite as vocal for the most part. In General "Cap has a tantrum because the liberal writers don't like who is in office right now" has actually been one of the things holding back the character rather than defining it. The movie seems to be being based around those politics, and him being "Captain Critical Of America" as opposed to a super patriot.
No, Captain America is not a mindless thug, but he is very much a strong adherant to American Ideals and always was. The big thing is that due to the way we used propaganda during "World War II" people have no problem with being aggressively militaristic towards Nazis. On the other hand we have yet to truely invoke those levels of war powers since then, and due to a lack of demonization combined with liberal morality, it's a touchy subject to treat anyone who opposes/opposed our country the way the Nazis are treated.
When your looking at a time period when you have people complaining about, a game set during the Cold War where there is a mission to try and kill Castro (covered here on The Escapist), it actually becomes an issue for a kid to fly an American flag on his bike, and you have people sitting here going "hmmm, well what is actually wrong with communism and socialism?", then obviously the people who create all of those issues are going to have problems with a character who represents traditional American values and patriotism like "Captain America" and as an icon want to redefine him accordingly. The very fact that we can see such a conflict over the character and how he's portrayed (both here, and in a movie) says a lot about the state of America and how it's divided today.
A properly written Captain America, the same guy who fought during World War II, would not have been going emo over Republican Presidents. Rather he'd probably be looking at the other side of the equasion with people in the US trying to ban the display of The American Flag in our own country "to avoid offending the Mexicans who live here as citizens".
Things like "The War On Terror" would have Captain America going down there and brutalizing Muslims like nobody's business. He wouldn't go in for all this "oh well, these guys only tried to decapitate the goverment because they were misunderstood" BS, any more than he would have accepted similar comments about Pearl Harbour after "World War II".
Properly written Captain America is supposed to be kind of like a bar an American can measure themselves against. If you find that your definition of America doesn't match his, he's not the problem. He is very much a "super patriot", which isn't nessicarly the same thing as being jingoistic despite what a lot of people might think. Our principles are such where this allows for a lot of lattitude. Consider though that today flying an American flag in the US is being called Jingoistic, that's a sickness among the people as a whole.
As far as other nations having their own patriotic heroes, understand that this creates interesting moral questions. Indeed a good portion of the Captain America rogues gallery is based around similar characters from other nations. The thing to understand though is that the ideals of America are not the same as those of the rest of the world. We believe in freedom, democracy, and capitolism (albiet not unfettered capitolism). Other nations like China, and Russia (USSR, and what Russia is again becoming) on the other hand believe very much in the subservience of the individual to the state, societal brain washing, and strong leadership with an iron fist. China has done things like assemble mobile execution chambers so the authorities can cruise around, execute lawbreakers on the spot and harvest their organs. This is not an urban legend or some kind of propaganda:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1165416/Chinas-hi-tech-death-van-criminals-executed-organs-sold-black-market.html
You can find much more about this by searching for "Chinese Death Vans".
In short the basic idea (going beyond that article to information collected from a lot of sources yo can find with a short search) is that the Chinese authorities find someone breaking the law that they claim is worth a death penelty offense. They call a van, strap the guy into the execution seat, and contact the authorities via radio, a trial is then conducted by a judge and other authorities (lawyers, or whatever) by remote. If found innocent he's let go. More likely they convict him and the van operators then pull out his organs surgically and ship them out to the hospitals. What sounds like the plot from a bad science fiction movie is apparently reality. The guys in "Repo" and "Repo Men" had it wrong, who needs private industry to step over the line when you have Communist goverments?
At any rate a typical Captain America villain would be a guy based on Chinese ideals and the goverment. Of course given how crazy China is today, they've already gone past the level of dudes like "The Red Guardian". I mean Wolfgang Von Strucker, Baron Zemo, Titanium Man, and other assorted nationalists from nations/cultures oppposing the US on principle (for obvious reasons) would probably be saying "no.. no.. that's just too evil for us" with some of the things China is up to. Heck not even "Doctor Doom" goes as far as the Chinese (he's never kept his citizens off the streets for not being attractive enough like we saw when China was hosting the Olympics... and he's like the penultimate evil dictator).
Cap exists to vicariously express our cowboy dreams. He's the guy who beats the crud out of a "Super Muslim" or whatever in the comics to make a point. Sort of telling a political morality tale. Most Americans (or so I'd hope) would like to do things like stop Muslims from stoning women to death for not marrying their rapists and stuff like that. Stories about things like that frame the conflict in many cases and end with a good old fashioned curb stomping.
Overall if you see a Captain America villain being made out of your country of origin/political outlook, then chances are that should be taken as something of a wakeup call because whatever it is, has come into serious conflict with the ideals of America.
By the same token, I don't think it can be said that it's possible to make a hero out of the ideals of every nation, or at least not one that can be understood and appreciated everywhere. The fact that Captain America is as well known as he is internationally (if not appreciated) says a lot actually. The UK has a lot of positive ideals that are very similar to those of the US, and as such you can see their patriotic characters in much the same light, doing the same types of things. On the other hand how do you make a decent super hero out of China with things like it's death vans? Maybe they have this cyborg with a direct link to the judicial system that is capable of acting as judge, jury, and executioner in miliseconds, ripping the organs out of people with tractor beams, flash freezing them, and teleporting them directly to the freezer section of the closest hospital where the political elite are treated. I can actually see that in a comic book, but not as a hero.
Despite how it might sound I'm trying to be as politically neutral as a conversation like this allows. Apologies to those who this offends, but I've posted some links to try and explain myself a bit better.
For those that read this far, thank you, and the bottom line is that I'm one of those who thinks that Cap should be fighting FOR America and it's goverment and ideals, not against it. I also think that part of the problem is a warped perspetive where people somehow think our ideals mean persecuting kids for flying our flag (or trying to), things like that are the reason why there are issues like this to begin with.
http://usridernews.com/2010/11/16/bikers-escort-boy-to-school-to-protest-flag-ban/
Okay, as for the article:
To be entirely honest if your going to look at issues like this you might want to step back from your personal politics a bit. To say that a nationalist "Captain America" was hated by "everyone" is kind of ridiculous to be honest. It's a little more accurate to say that liberals and the 'peace at any price' crowd didn't like it, and that when you saw people with those attitudes acting as the writers, then yes... you did see Captain America get changed around quite a bit. As far as him doing the whole "Nomad" thing during the 80s or the more recent way he was written during the recent "Civil War", those were hardly universally praised portrayals of the character. In general the most vocal portion of the fandom community (which includes comics) tends to be left wing. The right wingers are out there,
but we tend not to be quite as vocal for the most part. In General "Cap has a tantrum because the liberal writers don't like who is in office right now" has actually been one of the things holding back the character rather than defining it. The movie seems to be being based around those politics, and him being "Captain Critical Of America" as opposed to a super patriot.
No, Captain America is not a mindless thug, but he is very much a strong adherant to American Ideals and always was. The big thing is that due to the way we used propaganda during "World War II" people have no problem with being aggressively militaristic towards Nazis. On the other hand we have yet to truely invoke those levels of war powers since then, and due to a lack of demonization combined with liberal morality, it's a touchy subject to treat anyone who opposes/opposed our country the way the Nazis are treated.
When your looking at a time period when you have people complaining about, a game set during the Cold War where there is a mission to try and kill Castro (covered here on The Escapist), it actually becomes an issue for a kid to fly an American flag on his bike, and you have people sitting here going "hmmm, well what is actually wrong with communism and socialism?", then obviously the people who create all of those issues are going to have problems with a character who represents traditional American values and patriotism like "Captain America" and as an icon want to redefine him accordingly. The very fact that we can see such a conflict over the character and how he's portrayed (both here, and in a movie) says a lot about the state of America and how it's divided today.
A properly written Captain America, the same guy who fought during World War II, would not have been going emo over Republican Presidents. Rather he'd probably be looking at the other side of the equasion with people in the US trying to ban the display of The American Flag in our own country "to avoid offending the Mexicans who live here as citizens".
Things like "The War On Terror" would have Captain America going down there and brutalizing Muslims like nobody's business. He wouldn't go in for all this "oh well, these guys only tried to decapitate the goverment because they were misunderstood" BS, any more than he would have accepted similar comments about Pearl Harbour after "World War II".
Properly written Captain America is supposed to be kind of like a bar an American can measure themselves against. If you find that your definition of America doesn't match his, he's not the problem. He is very much a "super patriot", which isn't nessicarly the same thing as being jingoistic despite what a lot of people might think. Our principles are such where this allows for a lot of lattitude. Consider though that today flying an American flag in the US is being called Jingoistic, that's a sickness among the people as a whole.
As far as other nations having their own patriotic heroes, understand that this creates interesting moral questions. Indeed a good portion of the Captain America rogues gallery is based around similar characters from other nations. The thing to understand though is that the ideals of America are not the same as those of the rest of the world. We believe in freedom, democracy, and capitolism (albiet not unfettered capitolism). Other nations like China, and Russia (USSR, and what Russia is again becoming) on the other hand believe very much in the subservience of the individual to the state, societal brain washing, and strong leadership with an iron fist. China has done things like assemble mobile execution chambers so the authorities can cruise around, execute lawbreakers on the spot and harvest their organs. This is not an urban legend or some kind of propaganda:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1165416/Chinas-hi-tech-death-van-criminals-executed-organs-sold-black-market.html
You can find much more about this by searching for "Chinese Death Vans".
In short the basic idea (going beyond that article to information collected from a lot of sources yo can find with a short search) is that the Chinese authorities find someone breaking the law that they claim is worth a death penelty offense. They call a van, strap the guy into the execution seat, and contact the authorities via radio, a trial is then conducted by a judge and other authorities (lawyers, or whatever) by remote. If found innocent he's let go. More likely they convict him and the van operators then pull out his organs surgically and ship them out to the hospitals. What sounds like the plot from a bad science fiction movie is apparently reality. The guys in "Repo" and "Repo Men" had it wrong, who needs private industry to step over the line when you have Communist goverments?
At any rate a typical Captain America villain would be a guy based on Chinese ideals and the goverment. Of course given how crazy China is today, they've already gone past the level of dudes like "The Red Guardian". I mean Wolfgang Von Strucker, Baron Zemo, Titanium Man, and other assorted nationalists from nations/cultures oppposing the US on principle (for obvious reasons) would probably be saying "no.. no.. that's just too evil for us" with some of the things China is up to. Heck not even "Doctor Doom" goes as far as the Chinese (he's never kept his citizens off the streets for not being attractive enough like we saw when China was hosting the Olympics... and he's like the penultimate evil dictator).
Cap exists to vicariously express our cowboy dreams. He's the guy who beats the crud out of a "Super Muslim" or whatever in the comics to make a point. Sort of telling a political morality tale. Most Americans (or so I'd hope) would like to do things like stop Muslims from stoning women to death for not marrying their rapists and stuff like that. Stories about things like that frame the conflict in many cases and end with a good old fashioned curb stomping.
Overall if you see a Captain America villain being made out of your country of origin/political outlook, then chances are that should be taken as something of a wakeup call because whatever it is, has come into serious conflict with the ideals of America.
By the same token, I don't think it can be said that it's possible to make a hero out of the ideals of every nation, or at least not one that can be understood and appreciated everywhere. The fact that Captain America is as well known as he is internationally (if not appreciated) says a lot actually. The UK has a lot of positive ideals that are very similar to those of the US, and as such you can see their patriotic characters in much the same light, doing the same types of things. On the other hand how do you make a decent super hero out of China with things like it's death vans? Maybe they have this cyborg with a direct link to the judicial system that is capable of acting as judge, jury, and executioner in miliseconds, ripping the organs out of people with tractor beams, flash freezing them, and teleporting them directly to the freezer section of the closest hospital where the political elite are treated. I can actually see that in a comic book, but not as a hero.
Despite how it might sound I'm trying to be as politically neutral as a conversation like this allows. Apologies to those who this offends, but I've posted some links to try and explain myself a bit better.
For those that read this far, thank you, and the bottom line is that I'm one of those who thinks that Cap should be fighting FOR America and it's goverment and ideals, not against it. I also think that part of the problem is a warped perspetive where people somehow think our ideals mean persecuting kids for flying our flag (or trying to), things like that are the reason why there are issues like this to begin with.