Gindil said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExCdOImmVA
About 11 minutes in, it's shown. I can't find the archives on 4chan due to their very nature, but someone spammed her channel as soon as her kickstarter was announced. Further proof includes the escapist pages at the time of discussion where it was known that someone spammed the kickstarter on /v/ right as the kickstarter launched. So it was spammed to her, she riled up the trolls, then plays innocent when the trolls fire back mean and hateful things while the gamer community gets blamed.
Okay, perhaps I missed it, but I don't understand how we get from someone who is supposedly part of the Sarkeesian camp spamming 4chan to 'she is only in this for the money'. And yes, she gave rewards for larger donations, like just about every other kickstarter out there.
That's entirely irrelevant to showing how her Kickstarter was spammed in 4chan as the Kickstarter proceeded which has been the point for quite some time now.
Gindil said:
Uhm... No? Where is the "blatant discrimination of gender" that you seem to think is surrounding the entire world?
And I'm calling those threats "troll shots". You know... She got trolled massively, kept feeding them for money, then reaped the benefit of prepackaging the media her sob story. It sure worked instead of people doing investigative journalism and finding out why people talk about /v/ on her "misogyny" page...
I didn't actually say anything about it surrounding the entire world, though I do in fact believe it is, in the sense that it's not limited to gaming. Though this is at least twice now you've slipped more into my words rather than just addressed things I've actually said and I'd prefer it if you didn't. Again I don't think this is the place for the sexism discussion, though I would happily have it with you in another thread or via pm if you'd like. Also, since I've previously explained how no context makes any sort of sexism acceptable, I'll rather take the perspective that you are entirely right about this and say good on her. She exploited the stupidity of one of the most vile products of internet culture and won, I have no problem with that.
Hyperbole isn't "slipping words into your mouth". All I'm saying is that if she wants to make a claim that video games cause domestic violence and that "games are misogynist against women" then she needs some data to back up her argument. All I've seen is her opinion and out of context examples that once you look at them holistically, they aren't as dire as she claims. So again, show me an example.
And if you like being manipulated, that's your choice. I just think it's entirely stupid and pointless in creating an argument that only supports a minority of viewers in the first place.
Gindil said:
That's what trolling is. It's custom fitted talking points to initiate conflict. If she was black, there's be talks about how she's a slave. If she were male, they'd be calling her gay and talking about anal rape. It's meaningless words based on physical characteristics which she manipulated to make money. And it worked.
Further, she antagonized this situation to make money. That's why it's dishonest. It worked out for her, but now the entire press complex misquotes the gaming community (that had nothing to do with this) with the 4chan community she trolled. Also, we now have a gender war that shouldn't have been fought for the past year. This isn't progressive. It's regressive.
And again, show me those comments. I've just explained that most were criticisms. Are you now dismissing ALL criticisms as sexist hate speech?
And there is time number three. I've not said a single thing to indicate that all the criticism against her was hate speech. It surely isn't hard to stick to addressing what I am actually saying. And so what if she antagonised the situation, these are the people she thinks are the problem, of course she wants to antagonise them. If she was just going around saying 'fuck all male gamers' you'd have a point, but she pushing points and arguments she believes are important and she has every right to do that. As for showing you them, I did, in my last post, the quotes I put up were from that link. Here's the post E3 responses if you didn't see them: http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games
I've just been trawling through twitter for examples of threats, but it seems you can't bring up a list of responses to her tweets, or at least you can't if you don't an account and the search isn't helping. I obviously don't have access to her mail, which is apparently where most of the threats are. Still, I can give you some examples of other people, like Stephanie Guthrie being threatened for simply calling out the guy who made 'punch Anita in the face' game. In response to doing so she received messages such as "you're fucking dead, *****." and "I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways". Karen Elson after expressing her distaste at a rape joke was told she "Needs to be raped, she might lighten up after getting some for once." In the light of that I find it very easy to to believe Sarkeesian is getting the threats she claims she is getting.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/womans-call-to-end-video-game-misogyny-sparks-vicious-online-attacks/article4405585/
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/07/10/gamer_campaign_against_anita_sarkeesian_catches_toronto_feminist_in_crossfire.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/13/daniel-tosh-karen-elson-twitter-rape_n_1670803.html?utm_hp_ref=style
You can't focus on the "attacks" without looking at the criticisms? Is the entire moral viewpoint that 1 person out of 10 saying something you don't agree with going to be your focus? You haven't addressed the criticisms nor have you looked at the entire point. So my point stands that if you will not address the criticisms, then you can't address a minority viewpoint.
Further, it sounds like you're giving Anita a free pass to antagonize a community based on her sex. Personally, I want her to have her arguments stand up on their merits without sophistry being involved. She's yet to answer criticisms, but she'll name and shame people that don't agree with her. Why do something so intellectually dishonest? Again, I wouldn't care, but doing something so misleading is not a way to win people to a certain point of view.
I looked at that, but as I recall, She bears blame by antagonizing these people. Again, "For every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction". Why only engage trolls that are only tangentially related to gamers but expose their behavior and claim that they're the gaming community? That's the problem that I have with the situation. I also addressed this in the last part. She's leaving out context and critical information such as her own tweets. She's prepackaging this idea that she's the victim and that's misleading. That informs people of nothing but her own dishonesty. If we can't see her tweets, and we're only looking at the tweets of others, of course we're to feel automatically for Anita. But that doesn't address the issues of why she gets away with manipulating the public for actions that most didn't do.
And just at those examples, I can bring up one counterargument: Adria Richards. She manipulated people and of course, she received bad press by being dishonest to others. The point here is, if you want to say bad things about other people, expect a response. But you can't just dismiss everything as trolling when there's legitimate criticisms that might help the argument. You also can't focus on the trolls that aren't a part of the gaming community except when they attack someone who misleads people in the first place.
Gindil said:
Bullshit. Anita claimed that this was a coordinated attack on CNN. And the video game was free speech which people misquoted. Also, she has disabled comments but still doesn't want a conversation about these. So again... Show me how most of the comments are sexist besides what she selectively edits.
Yes, but I never said there was a coordinated attack. Not that it's hard to believe since she's had videos flag so often that youtube has taken them down in the past. Again, 'most', did I say that? I've put the examples up there if you want.
You're moving the goal posts here. Anita claimed they were a coordinated attack and I responded by where that information is. That's dishonesty. Second, I'm specifically claiming that the "evidence" she has is mostly criticism and not sexist. You're focusing on one without a focus on the other and that's a biased viewpoint.
Gindil said:
*sigh*
No, it's not because she's a woman. It's because her views are toxic. Do you see Felicia Day, Lisa Foiles, or Brenda Romero treated in the same manner? If you're sexist yourself, expect the same in return. "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself". Anita is not a paragon of virtue, nor should we claim that she is when her own views are lazy and ignorant of how storytelling works in entertainment.
Fair enough, I should have said 'fuck you for being a woman that has an opinion that disagrees with ours'. All of those women would get abuse if they had a feminist agenda, as Stephanie Guthrie or Karen Elson above, or Jennifer Hepler, who admittedly did say "I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either.", though only after she was called a 'fat slut' and an 'obese ****'.
http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-writer-s-vagina-versus-the-internet-222206.phtml
Let's look at the timeline on Jennifer Helpler shall we?
October 11 2006* - Jennifer Hepler says that she doesn't play games and skips gameplay for dialogue. People on the forums decide to satirize her.
October 11 2007 - EA announces plans to buy Bioware
January 10, 2011 - EA promotes a promotional diary with her in it
March 8, 2011 - DA2 hits shelves and has mostly positive reviews
December 13, 2011 - Knights of the Old Republic is released
February 14, 2012 - Kotaku publishes "BioWare Writer Describes Her Gaming Tastes; Angry Gamers Call Her a ?Cancer?
March 6, 2012 - Mass Effect 3 comes out
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Now really think about this... Why would it take six years for a company to notice things that were talked about so long ago? They had already discussed and debated those issues, and now you have people like Jim Sterling talking about this stuff and making detractors look like misogynistic idiots instead of recognizing their own failures. Could it really be that this is nothing more than fake controversy, provoked by a company that is known for very bad publishing decisions that hurt the consumers? Just a thought, but maybe what you view as "misogynist" is inherently flawed if it can't take criticism, satire, and parody into consideration.
Gindil said:
Not buying it until there's proof of how many comments were positive versus negative. Anita has a history of lying and quite frankly, if she can tell you, a supporter, that most of the comments were negative and have you believe it, then more power to you. I won't listen to someone with a history of lying and manipulation to achieve their own means.
And again, if I were to discuss the entire problem with her premise, she won't engage the critics. She never does. Good arguments encourage criticism. Bad arguments hide from it. And hers is pretty bad.
Not buying what exactly? I don't believe she has ever claimed that most of the comments were negative insults, and I certainly haven't, just that a lot of them were. And I have never thought of myself as a Sarkeesian supporter, I'm just disgusted by the amount of purely sexist response she and other women get.
Not buying the argument that nothing happened besides her trolling 4chan for money. I don't think trolls are indicative of the gaming community and I won't buy that argument until I see actual data that supports her argument. And seeing as how she has closed herself off to all points of view besides her own, it shows that something is amiss since she can't hold up to criticism. Even now, you've just written that those comments were "negative insults" when I'm saying they're criticism of her work.
And again... If you want to talk about sexism, you should recognize that she's perfectly fine with satire and parody and free speech so long as it doesn't affect the status quo. That's not free speech. That's a press release.
Gindil said:
Yeah, and I checked the Youtube page. I even looked at Metroidman90's YT page. He has one song and he commented to other videos. Some are decent comments. So again... No misogyny there. Maybe some trolling and as the CNN lady said Anita shouldn't feed the trolls.
Also... Yet again... Stop confusing gaming culture with 4chan culture. The two are not synonymous. It's like saying all of Anonymous is just the same. A bunch of trolls that like to get lulz. It's not. If you have an ignorance of the communities created by internet access, I can understand. But ranting and raving that the gaming culture has gotten bad when you want to condemn the actions of gamers that had nothing to do with 4chan vs Anita is just ridiculous.
I'm not confusing anything, but if gaming culture is defending the retaliation she received then the distinction irrelevant here. Also, misogynist trolling is misogyny, they are most certainly not mutually exclusive. And ranting and raving? Is it that you have to reduce my arguments to that in order to challenge them, because you know full well I've done nothing of the kind.
[/quote]
Let me repeat this for you...
4chan is a community. You also have the gamer community. You have a few gamers that are related to 4chan. There's a little overlap, but not a lot. You're dealing with two different circles of people and one is bigger than the other. It's not a black and white situation where "gamers = misogyny" which is the point of criticizing you for trying to confuse the two. All I'm saying is that if you want to confuse two different cultures that are very distinct, that's a ridiculous thing to do and hurts your argument.
*http://www.killerbetties.com/killer-women-jennifer-hepler/
** http://blog.bioware.com/2012/06/11/interview-with-senior-writer-jennifer-hepler/
*** http://kotaku.com/5886674/bioware-writer-describes-her-gaming-tastes-angry-gamers-call-her-a-cancer
