But violence was involved. Violence was the deciding factor. Violence is what generated sympathy. Hell, violence has been associated with every single movement to date.Jegsimmons said:
The British public's response to the riots.
- Thread starter ComprehensiveGoo
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The british police response goes more or less as:
Thanks for the bullets and the cannons, but we see them as un-necessary. We will try to avoid harm to our citizens.
Thanks for the bullets and the cannons, but we see them as un-necessary. We will try to avoid harm to our citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cooperation_movementAndyFromMonday said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffrage_movement#United_Kingdom
I think thats a few, albeit minor examples of what can get done via peaceful demonstration
Even if peaceful protests are effective (and I agree with you that, at best, their effect is highly limited), the most recent peaceful protest in English memory was last year's Student Demonstrations. On top of being ultimately ineffective, the demonstrators were at best belittled by the media, and at worst demonised and misrepresented. Demonstrators were subjected to shockingly harsh treatment by the police that could easily be construed as "thuggish"; even if one denies the accusations of police brutality (assaults and supposed cavalry "charges"), it is impossible to ignore that massive groups of peaceful protesters were forced into tightly packed groups in the freezing cold, so tight that many found it hard to breath, and denied the right to leave the protest or even to use the toilet, all for hours at a time. Certainly there were incidents of violence, but these incidents were rare, commited by a tiny minority of participants, and it can be argued that many were a result of angry reactions to the measures taken by the police, an escalation if you will.AndyFromMonday said:
It is quite likely that a lot of people might look at the Student Demonstrations, see how they failed, see how the protesters were treated like criminals even when they behaved themselves, and decide that, wrongly or rightly, stronger measures need to be taken.
Note that I do not agree with the actions of the rioters. Indeeed, I find the violence and looting to be obscene and reprehensible. I just understand that violence on this scale doesn't come from nowhere. It cannot be that the rioters are simply scum and criminals. If that were the case we'd be seeing similar riots take place all the time.
Only in the West can people organising mass assaults, destruction and thefts through £300 Blackberry smartphones while running from police in luxury £100 trainers be claimed to be rioting due to poverty.
OT: As a member of the British public, I can wholeheartedly say that the majority of us are disgusted by these people, and support the police to varying degrees. The protests were fine; the rioting is not.
The freedom to steal whatever you want and destroy your neighbour's property because it's fun is a reason.Zetion said:
Maybe you should tell the rioters themselves that there's another motive, because they haven't gotten the memo yet.Zetion said:
OT: As a member of the British public, I can wholeheartedly say that the majority of us are disgusted by these people, and support the police to varying degrees. The protests were fine; the rioting is not.
Oh I think perhaps many of the rioters do come from poverty stricken areas. It's entirely possibe that they didn't own these £300 smartphones and £100 trainers before the riots, but merely acquired them during the unrest through what I am sure are totally legitimate means.Xhu said:
I am stumped as to why people are defending them. What might have started out as peaceful protests (over an admittedly odd event- shooting a drug dealer?) quickly went to rioting and looting. They are not a social class in pain, or crying out to be heard by the government, they are committing wanton acts of violence for no other reason that "Foar teh lulz!". Almost anything the rioters say when near a camera is something along the lines of "I pay my taxes bruv I'm getting something back" or "Government is raising prices so gotta nick innit?", totally misinformed responses that they are either saying for laughs or justifying it to themselves. These people are simply committing acts of unparalleled violence because they are complete and utter bastards.
You can not defend people who are burning peoples lives to the ground and stealing on a massive scale. Not to mention the hundreds of police who have been injured as well as bystanders, and have so far left at least 4 people dead. Can you honestly defend a group of people who punch a man sitting on a bench to the ground and take his bag? Or set fire to houses and businesses?
It's time for the police to take the gloves off. Water cannons, tear gas, plastic ammunition, the works. There is no excuse for what this small minority is doing that is affecting tens, even hundreds of thousands of people.
CAPATCHA: nchissi 3728
Seriously escapist, can we please pull back a bit on the Capatcha's, some of them are practically impossible to get on a first try.
You can not defend people who are burning peoples lives to the ground and stealing on a massive scale. Not to mention the hundreds of police who have been injured as well as bystanders, and have so far left at least 4 people dead. Can you honestly defend a group of people who punch a man sitting on a bench to the ground and take his bag? Or set fire to houses and businesses?
It's time for the police to take the gloves off. Water cannons, tear gas, plastic ammunition, the works. There is no excuse for what this small minority is doing that is affecting tens, even hundreds of thousands of people.
CAPATCHA: nchissi 3728
Seriously escapist, can we please pull back a bit on the Capatcha's, some of them are practically impossible to get on a first try.
The riots started because some hard man kid attacked a police officer, the policeman fired rubber bullets at him, which killed him.
Then his parents went on a protest to ask for a formal apology from the metro police. Then all of his friends, and their friends, and their friends took it upon themselves to fight the power, and start a riot. They set buildings on fire and looted as much as they could. Which also inspired others of there... type, to follow their example. After all, if they're looting free stuff, we shouldn't they?
Right now, being is London is the scariest thing I've ever done. Especially when it starts to get dark. At the moment the sun is on its way down, and I've been fearing for my life for 4 days now. At any moment the house could get smashed, broken into, or burned down. Stuff has already been stolen from my garage, its not that expensive, but the fact that they've already been in and done this sort of stuff scares me to death.
Then his parents went on a protest to ask for a formal apology from the metro police. Then all of his friends, and their friends, and their friends took it upon themselves to fight the power, and start a riot. They set buildings on fire and looted as much as they could. Which also inspired others of there... type, to follow their example. After all, if they're looting free stuff, we shouldn't they?
Right now, being is London is the scariest thing I've ever done. Especially when it starts to get dark. At the moment the sun is on its way down, and I've been fearing for my life for 4 days now. At any moment the house could get smashed, broken into, or burned down. Stuff has already been stolen from my garage, its not that expensive, but the fact that they've already been in and done this sort of stuff scares me to death.
... I'm confused, are you against the water cannons and rubber bullets? That's what I inferred from your post, anyway.ComprehensiveGoo said:
If you are, I'm confused, because I think water cannons and rubber bullets would be a pretty good idea for the assholes who went around looting.
But yeah, I quite like the idea of people helping to clean up.
Wouldn't mind a laptop, though...
I should point out that, as knowledge of the events currently stand, your first two paragraphs are rather innacurate. According to the news that I have heard, and corroborated by wikipedia (I hate sifting through first hand news stories while the events they report are still so fresh because, as new facts come to the surface, they tend to be somewhat chaotic), Mark Duggan did not in fact attack the police, or at least he never fired on them. The bullet found in the policemans radio is now believed to have come from a police weapon. The protest that initially formed was peaceful, but was co-opted by a group that arrived much later.Robert Ewing said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots
Things are never clear-cut. Obviously there's a lot of violent thugs out there who are just using the chaos as a smokescreen to smash stuff and loot, but that's what happens when there's a breakdown of order. A lot of the rioting is *gasp* due to rioters.
HOWEVER, the slightest analysis of the way the government (and the last ones, Blair/Brown weren't blameless) is very revealing as to their prorities. The fact that two-thirds of Cameron's cabinet are Old Etonians and his Chancellor is a hereditary peer/ inherited millionaire makes you realise they simply don't understand working life.
Tax dodgers are let off (Vodafone recently got a £6 Billion tax bill annulled)and blatantly corrupt media barons are pampered while things like SureStart are cut and services that people depend on are left to wither on the vine.
I have no sympathy for people who are using this as a chance to cadge a new plasma TV... but it's painfully obvious that normal people, especially the poor and
ethnic minorites, simply don't factor into the ruling classes' calculations. Quite simply, people are fed up of being ignored.
(for an added dose of frankly astounding hypocrisy, check out Call-Me-Dave's latest comments on the BBC. All the fault of people who think they're entitled to the world and don't care who they trample to get it? That sounds cough*Thatcher*cough familiar)
HOWEVER, the slightest analysis of the way the government (and the last ones, Blair/Brown weren't blameless) is very revealing as to their prorities. The fact that two-thirds of Cameron's cabinet are Old Etonians and his Chancellor is a hereditary peer/ inherited millionaire makes you realise they simply don't understand working life.
Tax dodgers are let off (Vodafone recently got a £6 Billion tax bill annulled)and blatantly corrupt media barons are pampered while things like SureStart are cut and services that people depend on are left to wither on the vine.
I have no sympathy for people who are using this as a chance to cadge a new plasma TV... but it's painfully obvious that normal people, especially the poor and
ethnic minorites, simply don't factor into the ruling classes' calculations. Quite simply, people are fed up of being ignored.
(for an added dose of frankly astounding hypocrisy, check out Call-Me-Dave's latest comments on the BBC. All the fault of people who think they're entitled to the world and don't care who they trample to get it? That sounds cough*Thatcher*cough familiar)
That's not what I'm saying at all. I was just giving an update on the situation, granted a poorly worded update if that's the message you received. I support what ever force (and then some) is necessary to deal with the scum who think it's okay to burn countless people's lively hoods to the ground.No_Remainders said:
The bulk of what I was trying to get out there was the effect it had on the public, that people are shocked and disgusted. In spite of all the havoc they band together and show that the community spirit cannot be shaken by the mindless violence and threats imposed by the rioters who wander the streets.
So basically I fully support the police and what they're doing to deal with the riots and further more I praise the community for their participation in realising "hey, we live here too and we're not putting up with this". Hope that's cleared up any confusion.
You know what? I'm sorely tempted to suggest that he's right. This *is* all the fault of people who think they're entitled to the world and don't care who they trample to get it. Except I don't just mean the criminals involved in the riots...InanimateObject said:
Edit: Noticed right after posting that you pretty much said exactly what I did. Bravo DrWilhelm, you moron.