The Citadel at the end of Mass Effect 3 (spoilers)

[Don Savik]

Also a 17 billion ton space station crashing into Earth will do way more damage than the Reapers ever could. Force = Mass X Acceleration. I actually looked it up and in addition to the massive impact, large objects like that will also rip holes in the ozone layer. So if by chance you survived that you'd get cooked with radiation.

You saved Earth!... but not really.

But this is one of those pretty sci-fi esplosionz where everything completely disintegrates and there are no consequences. Like blowing up the death star over the planets Yavin 4 and Alderaan. Because science.

And as good as the indoctrination theory seems, its just pointing at plot stuff that doesn't make sense and going "ITS A DREAAAAMMMM!!", which, is even worse story telling.......and its a cop out.....

So glad I didn't buy this game (watched my brother play it and rage at the ending)....the second game is all the Mass Effect I needed (and by that I mean I liked it and it was good on its own merits)

 

[Rawne1980]

I cared at one point. Now I seem to have lost interest. I gave my ME3 to a friend (who then sold it at Gamestation ... I knew I should have thought of that first) just to get it over with.

There is no way in hell BioWare can do anything that will please everyone.

It wasn't the choices or the indoctrination type theory that pissed me off .... it was the fact there was no ending.

We got no closure about anything.

Which indicated it was all going to come down to DLC and i'm sick of having to pay extra for games.

Lets just say we take the indoctrination theory at face value.

Shep is still laid up in London and all that sparkly crap on the Citadel is a Dallas rip off (come one, those of you "older" folks took the piss out of them for the *it's all a dream* ending). So the Reaper war is still going on and people are being massacred .... yep, great ending that ... oh wait, it's not an ending.

Which is why I was hoping and praying that the indoctrination theory was just that, a bloody theory. Otherwise BioWare gave an ending that wasn't an ending but a path to yet another bloody sequel with someone taking over from Shep (Garrus comes to calibra.... er .... save the day).

 

[Smithburg]

Read this recently and thought it was hilarious

Pretty much sums up the end

Spoiler

And spot on too lol

 

[Smithburg]

See, this is just another thing that makes the Indoctrination theory more plausible. If you pick the destroy ending and The Citadel blows up, how is there any possibility of Sheperd being alive?

Obviously, he survived an explosion of freaking massive proportions and just surfed a piece of wreckage back to england, thats totally believable lol

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Yup.

That's all reasonable to assume. However, we don't know either way. The only concrete indication of bad shit going down in the citadel is the pile of bodies when you arrive.

Although it's worth noting that if you choose the control ending (blue cupcake) then the citadel isn't destroyed.

Yet another thing the endings failed to give closure on.

Nope. That "Citadel" was all part of Shepard's Imagination. Those Bodies? Just remember the Collector Ship. The Sky? Citadel from the first game during the end. Also, how did Anderson get there before you when there was only a single way to get to that area? How about the Illusive Man? Also, how did you get injured during the end even though YOU shot ANDERSON?

Its all a part of the Indoctrination.

Either that or they are even worse writers than a fourth Grader hopped up on coke.

The bodies are the aftermath of human harvesting, like on the collector ship, ergo the similarities. They were making another reaper.
The sky will look the same from the citadel in the first game because IT IS THE SAME CITADEL IN THE LAST GAME.
Anderson presumably walked FASTER than Shepard. Explaining how he got there quicker. He also said that bits where he walked by were shifting and moving, maybe the other path did too?
You didn't GET injured during the end, you were already injured when you got to the citadel from Harbinger's attack. Presumably the blood is from what gathered up in Shepard's hand after holding his side for so long keeping it closed.

Yeah some of the evidence in the indoctrination theory just doesn't fly with me. I do hope however the theory is correct. The only good points I have seen is that the kid projection is the same kid Shepard saw during the game and in his dreams, if this crucible can get that deep into Shepard's brain then he can also have controlled and manipulated him. Also the endings. If you choose synthesis (matching the theme of what Saren wanted to do, who was indoctrinated) or control (matching what the illusive man wanted to do, who was also indoctrinated) then the kid watches you the whole time (creepy?) but choose destroying the reapers and the kid vanishes...It's also the only choice no indoctrinated servant would have chosen, only non-indoctrinated people.

Why I hope it is all just an illusion is because if destroying the synthetics IS the right option then you are killing the geth too, and I like them allot. If it is an illusion then no one dies.

Also, the destroy ending is the only one possible for shepard to wake up in debris. The others do not allow it.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

See, this is just another thing that makes the Indoctrination theory more plausible. If you pick the destroy ending and The Citadel blows up, how is there any possibility of Sheperd being alive?

Because for Shepard, getting spaced is a Tuesday.


Even ignoring every other piece of evidence out there, there's still one thing I can't look past.


Shepard: "..So the Illusive Man was right.."

Yes Shepard, go ahead and completely agree about controlling the Reapers with the guy that tried to control the reapers, got indoctrinated and tried to kill you. And who you've been fighting this whole game, and most of last game.


You're not brainwashed at all.

I think he meant the Illusive man was right in that it is POSSIBLE to control the reapers, not in that it is the right CHOICE to control them, depending on what choice you took for an ending of course.

 

[tlgAlaska]

That was my first question....how did the Illusive Man take over the Citadel when he failed the first time?!?

He disguised himself as Geth. No Geth would infiltrate the Citadel!

 

[JediMB]

I envy the people who are capable of deluding themselves into thinking that BioWare had this huge mind blowing indoctrination subplot planned from the beginning, and is going to be giving us the proper endings as free DLC.

If they managed to write in all that stuff that supports the Indoctrination Theory purely by mistake (including the scenes in Vancouver), then I have to be impressed by just how terrible the lead writer is.

Like I said, I envy your optimism. I've become too much of a cynic at this point to not boil it down to it just being horribly rushed and poorly thought out.

Besides, the very idea of the indoctrination theory pisses me off. I loved the Mass Effect series for it being an uplifting Space Opera in the same vein of Star Wars, not some vague pretentious pseudo intellectual crap like the Matrix sequels.

I'm not trying to offend, that's just the way I feel about this whole situation. And no amount of debate with anyone is going to change that.

Oh, believe me when I say I'm not optimistic.

I, too, loved Mass Effect because of its Space Opera roots. It combined what I loved about Knights of the Old Republic with my love for the sci-fi shooter genre. Some of the best moments in ME3 took place aboard the Normandy.

I just think that at one point there may have been plans for something, but it was abandoned in favor of something really bad due to time restraints and/or conflicting opinions within the team.

I very much doubt that the promised update to the ending is going to do anything but further "clarify" the current ending, despite that it won't work no matter how much they try to explain it. The Indoctrination Theory is that last shimmer of hope that the promised update is actually going to provide us with anything worthwhile. (But, again, I seriously doubt it.)

 

[JediMB]

The bodies are the aftermath of human harvesting, like on the collector ship, ergo the similarities. They were making another reaper.

But there weren't any processing facilities there. They were just beaming bodies up to the corridor that lead to the why-is-this-not-the-Council-chambers Citadel control panel.

EDIT: Nothing about the layout of those areas makes any sense.

 

[Stevolteon]

The thing which irks me about the Indoctrination Theory is that it means this final decision has only one correct answer. Throughout the rest of the games the decisions (at least the ones I can readily remember!) are all valid and continue the game whichever option you choose. Yes they have an impact down the road, but none of them is a game ender.

To my mind the dialogue wheel mechanic is a bit flawed in so far as conclusions are always presented as Paragon, Neutral, Renegade from top to bottom down the right side of the wheel. This is compounded by the fact that Paragon options almost always deliver "good" endings whereas renegade tend to deliver "bad" (if nothing else, "good" in that they result in the most forces being available in 3). Consciously or not your brain picks up on this layout, and it almost inevitably has an effect on your decision making.

Having established this pattern, to suddenly have the one "correct" ending be a Renegade one is a bit out of line. Maybe I'm just too susceptible to this kind of programming. How many of you managed to work the Indoctrination Theory out on your original playthrough in time to make the "correct" call?

 

[Goofguy]

To be honest, I hadn't even remotely thought of the Citadel citizens until this came up. I guess all the buffs I gave the Citadel Defense Force amounted to jack squat. Since I went with the Destroy ending, it's quite obvious what happened to that 10+ million people in my playthrough. That's if I didn't think the indoctrination theory was legit, of course.

 

[Cobalt180]

What happened to Bailey? To the Council? What about the many people on the Citadel? That part was never mentioned, and it bothers me that it was not deemed important in th final conclusion to mention the fates of some of th very importan characters of the game. Aria? Her domain? Purgatory? Where was that?

This might satisfy you. It gives me hope:

http://koobismo.deviantart.com/

It was actually this that made me aware of at least Aria, I had already wondered about Bailey. Thanks for the link though! I just hope that Bioware comes up with a better solution, and I hope they're ready to deal with all the scowls from a DLC ending.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Yup.

That's all reasonable to assume. However, we don't know either way. The only concrete indication of bad shit going down in the citadel is the pile of bodies when you arrive.

Although it's worth noting that if you choose the control ending (blue cupcake) then the citadel isn't destroyed.

Yet another thing the endings failed to give closure on.

Nope. That "Citadel" was all part of Shepard's Imagination. Those Bodies? Just remember the Collector Ship. The Sky? Citadel from the first game during the end. Also, how did Anderson get there before you when there was only a single way to get to that area? How about the Illusive Man? Also, how did you get injured during the end even though YOU shot ANDERSON?

Its all a part of the Indoctrination.

Either that or they are even worse writers than a fourth Grader hopped up on coke.

The bodies are the aftermath of human harvesting, like on the collector ship, ergo the similarities. They were making another reaper.
The sky will look the same from the citadel in the first game because IT IS THE SAME CITADEL IN THE LAST GAME.
Anderson presumably walked FASTER than Shepard. Explaining how he got there quicker. He also said that bits where he walked by were shifting and moving, maybe the other path did too?
You didn't GET injured during the end, you were already injured when you got to the citadel from Harbinger's attack. Presumably the blood is from what gathered up in Shepard's hand after holding his side for so long keeping it closed.

Except for the simple fact that as he says the moving wall part, you enter that room within 5 seconds. Also the fact that when you wake up, he also does but supposedly in his area there were no bodies lying around. There was only a singular walkway toward the console as well.

Also note that if Shepard was wounded from Harbinger, you would still be bleeding from that spot, regardless of how tight your hold that wound. It is a bit of a coincidence that when you sit down, you are clutching the exact same wound that Anderson had yet Anderson wasn't even injured, even after supposedly getting roasted by Harbinger as well. I know you agree with the Indoctrination Theory, but that one part I just wanted to try and clear up/debate.


Yeah some of the evidence in the indoctrination theory just doesn't fly with me. I do hope however the theory is correct. The only good points I have seen is that the kid projection is the same kid Shepard saw during the game and in his dreams, if this crucible can get that deep into Shepard's brain then he can also have controlled and manipulated him. Also the endings. If you choose synthesis (matching the theme of what Saren wanted to do, who was indoctrinated) or control (matching what the illusive man wanted to do, who was also indoctrinated) then the kid watches you the whole time (creepy?) but choose destroying the reapers and the kid vanishes...It's also the only choice no indoctrinated servant would have chosen, only non-indoctrinated people.

Why I hope it is all just an illusion is because if destroying the synthetics IS the right option then you are killing the geth too, and I like them allot. If it is an illusion then no one dies.

Also, the destroy ending is the only one possible for shepard to wake up in debris. The others do not allow it.

Updated in Bold.

Actually, while Shepard slowly limps to the door Anderson notes the shifting walls,after going through the door there is a very long distance between you and the chasm. Anderson notes MORE hallways and the chasm, if we take into account that the facility can shift as Anderson described then they presumably shifted away when the chasm was out of view as Shepard approached it. Shepard walks towards it but has to walk through a downward slope, obscuring the view of the chasm which is situated on a higher level. After a while Anderson sees a hallway, then the control panel and he will at this point go to reach it and we hear shifting machinery (from around us, we see some too) as well as static over his radio which could mean the other path "shifted away" when he got there.

Although my problem with this is that if you try to walk around and get a better view of the distant chasm from where the door opened then it seems largely the same as when you find it, no walls or anything and just a control panel. When you get there you don't see any obvious way for an opening to shift or reform, maybe Anderson was stuck somewhere inside the mechanical workings and not where it was designed for people to walk and a panel opened up into the chasm along the bits of walls away from the console. Still, it is odd that I would have to come up with so many theories on how Anderson got there all by myself. Even if it all was an indoctrination vision, how the hell could Anderson have realistically gotten there on his own? Why don't we see any obvious path for him? If the reapers wanted to fool Shepard, wouldn't they have done a better job? Did they forget? I thought reapers were ungodly intelligent.

As to Shepard's bleeding, that totally comes out of nowhere. Anderson got shot, he died yet we see no wounds and he was wearing ARMOR so he should have survived. Shepard shouldn't have been bleeding from a gunshot either as he was shot by a marauder on his way to the chasm yet didn't bleed. All I can guess is that when Shepard sat down next to Anderson he tore open an already serious wound and worsened it.

Also, who cares if he woke up somewhere with no bodies around? Reaper growing areas aren't full of dead corpses.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

The bodies are the aftermath of human harvesting, like on the collector ship, ergo the similarities. They were making another reaper.

But there weren't any processing facilities there. They were just beaming bodies up to the corridor that lead to the why-is-this-not-the-Council-chambers Citadel control panel.

EDIT: Nothing about the layout of those areas makes any sense.

Well there were tubes there so presumably some bodies get transported to different areas where they get processed. Anderson got beamed somewhere else and said it reminded him of shepard's description of the collector base.

I dunno maybe something like that, this whole ordeal says "lazy writing and designing" to me more than "hints at indoctrination".

Even if bioware WERE hinting at indoctrination, it was done poorly.

 

[JediMB]

The bodies are the aftermath of human harvesting, like on the collector ship, ergo the similarities. They were making another reaper.

But there weren't any processing facilities there. They were just beaming bodies up to the corridor that lead to the why-is-this-not-the-Council-chambers Citadel control panel.

EDIT: Nothing about the layout of those areas makes any sense.

Well there were tubes there so presumably some bodies get transported to different areas where they get processed. Anderson got beamed somewhere else and said it reminded him of shepard's description of the collector base.

I dunno maybe something like that, this whole ordeal says "lazy writing and designing" to me more than "hints at indoctrination".

Even if bioware WERE hinting at indoctrination, it was done poorly.

I've figured that the "Citadel" areas at the end of the game were originally supposed to be something else, and were simply recycled so that they'd have someplace to end the game. Since they look more like a mix of human and Shadow Broker designs than something that was created by the Reapers.

According to some of the artbook material, the bodies in the corridor were originally fallen Cerberus soldiers.