The cure for Avatar depression

[nick_knack]

Get off the planet? And what, leave it to anarchy as the stupid fucking hippies realize that they can't make everything work perfectly and devolve into another Dark Age? I think not sir.

Over-generalizing hippies doesn't change the fact that your kind will kill the planet if you reach for technological advancement of all kinds including weapons technology. People like you brought us manifest destiny, the enslavement of Asians to build railroads, and not only atomic weapons and beyond but the only government to ever actually use such weapons. My hostility and aggression online are nothing compared to the millennia of "Might makes right" or whatever friendly terms you wish to hide that thinking in. My vindication doesn't come from a collapse I hope never happens, my vindication comes from the mindsets of those who oppose me and my means, and those who see where I'm coming from and why I take the approaches I take.

Declaring supposition to be fact doesn't hide the fact that you are an unrealistic idealist fool, albeit one who is well read. The fact is, that people without arms will always be exploited by those with. If you cannot embrace that as unchanging fact, regardless of the morality of the situation, then you are a failure as a human.

*snip*

Your points are made based on a complete mis-characterization of my original post. For a linguist, that's sad. You want to end this, fine I'll give you the last word after this: I celebrated the possibilities technology could afford us at the end of the OP. Thank you for seeing what you wanted to see and fighting that instead of honestly looking for what I was aiming for.

I don't think anyone here has more than an inkling of what it is you are trying to say. I would posit that the blame rests with you for that. You have to be clearer about what you are saying. In particular, explain the terms you use because there will be people who don't understand.

What is this I don't even?

Exactly.


At this point the thread is pretty much a clusterfuck, so I think I'm going to leave.

 

[Squeaksx]

AIG should have failed, it wasn't the capitalists that prevented this, it was the Democrat (Liberal) president who signed the bill that bailed them out. A free-market would have dictated that it failed and the more hardy companies survive and flourish. So it was the lack of free-market and capitalism that lead to AIG being bailed out. That was socialism, the semi-nationalizing of private businesses, not capitalism. Once you take a basic course on economics then return to us.

#1: That bill was signed before Obama was in office. It was signed by a Republican. Obama signed the following bailouts. Now who's making unwarranted statements.
#2: AIG shouldn't have existed in the first place. Ayn Rand talks about individual freedom vs. governmental collectivism while ignoring corporate collectivism. Capitalism doesn't give a damn about individualism vs. collectivism. As a tool, it's a useful economic system that promotes growth and industry. As a virtue and a value system, it is its own beast and like any greedy algorithm will consume every resource until it finally begins consuming itself.
#3: Take some fundamental mathematics and understand the ends of any system before you try and tell me to take some basic economics. At least I've got my basic facts straight and you are clearly trolling with that last statement. Only thing is, you're trolling a guy who has done his homework and actually knows what he's talking about.

Firstly, your right that was true and it had passed my mind, so yes you do get that point.

Secondly, let me ask you what would you suggest instead of the current economic system that is present?

Thirdly, all things aside I still think that Avatar doesn't preach anything new. The morals that it projects are morals that have been on the forefront of many sources of media for years now. Why people are getting depressed because of THIS movie in particular makes absolutely no sense to me. To be outright honest the acting isn't good enough and the story isn't strong enough to warrant such an impact with a set of morals that is decades old.

 

[Captain Blackout]

Firstly, your right that was true and it had passed me mind so yes you do get that point.

Secondly, let me ask you what would you suggest instead of the current form of economics that is present?

That is the best question I've had so far in this thread. I was ready to delete my last two messages but this is a truly fair one, so here goes (this is the short version, the long version would take forever)

We need a healthy mixed economy. We based our government on checks and balances, why not balance the economy? We need capitalism, as a tool, to promote growth. More simply put: People need rewarded for their efforts or they won't bother.

On the flip side, capitalism does not work for everything. There are damn good reasons why fire and police aren't strictly pay per use.

Unfortunately our current situation is a hodge podge, quilted together without thought given to the end result. We need to assess priorities. Some priorities are natural, like external defense (military) and internal defense (justice/legal system). Others aren't so obvious. Do we need a medicare system that covers everyone over a certain age without charging any of them without regard to their resources?

America is based on values, the first of which is freedom. Freedom is a wonderful value but without responsibility to go with it, it can be ugly. Free speech doesn't give one the right to yell fire in a theater.

For me the highest value is compassion. Putting this into a constitution is near impossible. However, we can look at what we need and build from there.

After the most natural priorities are handled the highest priority is raising children. This is where we can begin healthy socialization. Think about it: The very process of raising a child is a process of socialization. America claims it has wonderful schools (at least, if you listen to a number of conservatives here). If this is the case, then why are we behind other countries in so many ways? I can take any child and get the most possible out of them by applying standards used elsewhere in the world. There's a reason for this: Philosophically America hit a reset button roughly 300 years ago, and today many believe that our answers are the best, the hell with the rest. The fact is that cultures that didn't abandon their philosophical heritage have an advantage we don't have: They can take the best from their past and use it today. We don't need new technology for that.

So in summary, we start with the schools. We overhaul them to get the best we can out of every student, we use every tool at our disposal (leaving ego at the door) and we arm students, not just with a litany of facts, but with tools they can use to manage themselves whatever they choose in life.

Don't think we need this? There's a reason why America is jailing more and more of her citizens, and it's not just a broken legal system. We are turning kids out from high school without the tools they need. I've tutored a few, and it's really sad to be tutoring a high school graduate in basic reading.

More than that, we can use the schools to provide children with a healthy environment. I have multiple children in the schools at various ages and the fact is that kids are highly under-supervised. In ages past children were kept at home, and many under their parents thumbs. Not always good, but it did provide a social structure we no longer have available to us. We need new social structures that enable us to build a functioning free society from the bottom up.

We succeed at this, and all the other problems will follow suit. We'll never get rid of crime or homelessness, but we certainly reduce the impact it currently has.

And this was the short answer....

 

[Captain Blackout]

*snip*

Before you leave I have one question: Every time I go for the full explanation it becomes a wall-o-text that get me flamed just for its length. Every time I shorten things in any way, I get my views picked at by people who won't read the whole thing and won't ask questions and it turns into a clusterfuck. Every time I post nicely I get taken for a pushover and the trolls and naysayers alike come flying out of the woodwork. Every time I get tough, folks dig in their heels, attack what they think I'm saying, and avoid what I'm really saying. Any suggestions?

For me, I'll continue to post as hard as I need to, and if the readers don't want to actually, ya know, read, the hell with them they weren't ready for what I had to offer anyway. At least until I find better answers.....

 

[Squeaksx]

Firstly, your right that was true and it had passed me mind so yes you do get that point.

Secondly, let me ask you what would you suggest instead of the current form of economics that is present?

That is the best question I've had so far in this thread. I was ready to delete my last two messages but this is a truly fair one, so here goes (this is the short version, the long version would take forever)

We need a healthy mixed economy. We based our government on checks and balances, why not balance the economy? We need capitalism, as a tool, to promote growth. More simply put: People need rewarded for their efforts or they won't bother.

On the flip side, capitalism does not work for everything. There are damn good reasons why fire and police aren't strictly pay per use.

Unfortunately our current situation is a hodge podge, quilted together without thought given to the end result. We need to assess priorities. Some priorities are natural, like external defense (military) and internal defense (justice/legal system). Others aren't so obvious. Do we need a medicare system that covers everyone over a certain age without charging any of them without regard to their resources?

America is based on values, the first of which is freedom. Freedom is a wonderful value but without responsibility to go with it, it can be ugly. Free speech doesn't give one the right to yell fire in a theater.

For me the highest value is compassion. Putting this into a constitution is near impossible. However, we can look at what we need and build from there.

After the most natural priorities are handled the highest priority is raising children. This is where we can begin healthy socialization. Think about it: The very process of raising a child is a process of socialization. America claims it has wonderful schools (at least, if you listen to a number of conservatives here). If this is the case, then why are we behind other countries in so many ways? I can take any child and get the most possible out of them by applying standards used elsewhere in the world. There's a reason for this: Philosophically America hit a reset button roughly 300 years ago, and today many believe that our answers are the best, the hell with the rest. The fact is that cultures that didn't abandon their philosophical heritage have an advantage we don't have: They can take the best from their past and use it today. We don't need new technology for that.

So in summary, we start with the schools. We overhaul them to get the best we can out of every student, we use every tool at our disposal (leaving ego at the door) and we arm students, not just with a litany of facts, but with tools they can use to manage themselves whatever they choose in life.

Don't think we need this? There's a reason why America is jailing more and more of her citizens, and it's not just a broken legal system. We are turning kids out from high school without the tools they need. I've tutored a few, and it's really sad to be tutoring a high school graduate in basic reading.

More than that, we can use the schools to provide children with a healthy environment. I have multiple children in the schools at various ages and the fact is that kids are highly under-supervised. In ages past children were kept at home, and many under their parents thumbs. Not always good, but it did provide a social structure we no longer have available to us. We need new social structures that enable us to build a functioning free society from the bottom up.

We succeed at this, and all the other problems will follow suit. We'll never get rid of crime or homelessness, but we certainly reduce the impact it currently has.

And this was the short answer....

Let me take a chunk out of the latter portion and add a little comment. One of the reasons that many students don't have the basic tools for survival is with their own lack of responsibility and set of priorities. I myself am a senior and I would safely say that I am doing well to obtain the basic tools I'll need to survive, but to my left and right I see several of my peers who would rather worry about their social life and immediate gratification, doing little more than striving for the minimal amount of effort needed to pass. I cannot say whether this is caused by the values imprinted on them by their family, media, or society, but I myself take great pride in my acquisition of knowledge.

Though I will make another little quip, at least in California, America isn't jailing HER citizens in more than one case and why she is jailing them at all and not sending them to the place where they hold citizenship is beyond me. Spending money that could be redirected to something much more important, like services such as the police, firefighters, and other services. Again, I can only speak for the peers who live near me.

 

[Captain Blackout]

Let me take a chunk out of the latter portion and add a little comment. One of the reasons that many students don't have the basic tools for survival is with their own lack of responsibility and set of priorities. I myself am a senior and I would safely say that I am doing well to obtain the basic tools I'll need to survive, but to my left and right I see several of my peers who would rather worry about their social life and immediate gratification, doing little more than striving for the minimal amount of effort needed to pass. I cannot say whether this is caused by the values imprinted on them by their family, media, or society, but I myself take great pride in my acquisition of knowledge.

I'm glad to hear that. My eldest took full responsibility for his life at 16 or so, got into job core, and is earning a living at 17. He made it through job core in record time.

On the other hand I have another child who is like your peers. He's my stepson. He's had a tough life, and he clearly has some internal challenges, both psychological and genetic (I know his real father, possibly better than many). The fact is this one is beyond my and my wife's abilities to help. We've tried, but the moment we send him out the door to school all bets are off, we're competing with the rest of the world. We tried home-schooling, which finally worked, but when we sent him back things got ugly again. Home-schooling is no longer an option. If I had the money, he would be in the forest with a group geared towards dealing with children with his challenges, and such groups work, I did the research.

All of us are formed by three things: The intrinsic (genetics, God, whatever), the extrinsic (the totality of ones environment, home, community, the world) and personal choice. Long before you get to personal choice you have two large areas to wade through in raising a person.

Sun Tzu divided people by the following standards: Lazy vs. ambitious, Talented vs. stupid (not the best term but it's all I got at the moment).

This leads to four catagories: Talented and ambitious, talented and lazy, stupid and lazy, stupid and ambitious. He could use three of the four groups. Guess which group he said he would not deal with? Laziness wasn't a problem for him: give them jobs they like and they'll work forever for you. Ambitious and stupid will take your army (corporation, government) apart.

This is where we need to draw a line: We need to recognize that motivation is not just personal choice, and we can get the best from folks if we recognize this.

So for your peers, they need an environment where they are better managed, since they won't/can't manage themselves as well as you do. You won't get that environment from capitalism, at least for all students. You will only get it by building the needed social and educational structures across the board.

 

[Squeaksx]

Let me take a chunk out of the latter portion and add a little comment. One of the reasons that many students don't have the basic tools for survival is with their own lack of responsibility and set of priorities. I myself am a senior and I would safely say that I am doing well to obtain the basic tools I'll need to survive, but to my left and right I see several of my peers who would rather worry about their social life and immediate gratification, doing little more than striving for the minimal amount of effort needed to pass. I cannot say whether this is caused by the values imprinted on them by their family, media, or society, but I myself take great pride in my acquisition of knowledge.

I'm glad to hear that. My eldest took full responsibility for his life at 16 or so, got into job core, and is earning a living at 17. He made it through job core in record time.

On the other hand I have another child who is like your peers. He's my stepson. He's had a tough life, and he clearly has some internal challenges, both psychological and genetic (I know his real father, possibly better than many). The fact is this one is beyond my and my wife's abilities to help. We've tried, but the moment we send him out the door to school all bets are off, we're competing with the rest of the world. We tried home-schooling, which finally worked, but when we sent him back things got ugly again. Home-schooling is no longer an option. If I had the money, he would be in the forest with a group geared towards dealing with children with his challenges, and such groups work, I did the research.

All of us are formed by three things: The intrinsic (genetics, God, whatever), the extrinsic (the totality of ones environment, home, community, the world) and personal choice. Long before you get to personal choice you have two large areas to wade through in raising a person.

Sun Tzu divided people by the following standards: Lazy vs. ambitious, Talented vs. stupid (not the best term but it's all I got at the moment).

This leads to four catagories: Talented and ambitious, talented and lazy, stupid and lazy, stupid and ambitious. He could use three of the four groups. Guess which group he said he would not deal with? Laziness wasn't a problem for him: give them jobs they like and they'll work forever for you. Ambitious and stupid will take your army (corporation, government) apart.

This is where we need to draw a line: We need to recognize that motivation is not just personal choice, and we can get the best from folks if we recognize this.

So for your peers, they need an environment where they are better managed, since they won't/can't manage themselves as well as you do. You won't get that environment from capitalism, at least for all students. You will only get it by building the needed social and educational structures across the board.

The issue is that motivation is a a mixture of many things, but when the environment isn't present it means that people must take it upon themselves to find motivation. The city I live in is considered, statistically, the safest city of this size in the country. It is considered near repression proof and holds many substantial companies providing cash-flow. Students here have some of the best situations they can hope for, teachers here seem more or less dedicated, and the district allows us the freedom to make clubs that focus on religion or political views. There are several students who take advantage of these circumstances to succeed. For those who don't I must believe that they simply do not have the values that place education on the forefront. Whether these values were caused due to lack of parental or teacher guidance is beyond my knowledge, but I know that they are some of the laziest people who don't strive to do above the required.

 

[nick_knack]

*snip*

Before you leave I have one question: Every time I go for the full explanation it becomes a wall-o-text that get me flamed just for its length. Every time I shorten things in any way, I get my views picked at by people who won't read the whole thing and won't ask questions and it turns into a clusterfuck. Every time I post nicely I get taken for a pushover and the trolls and naysayers alike come flying out of the woodwork. Every time I get tough, folks dig in their heels, attack what they think I'm saying, and avoid what I'm really saying. Any suggestions?

For me, I'll continue to post as hard as I need to, and if the readers don't want to actually, ya know, read, the hell with them they weren't ready for what I had to offer anyway. At least until I find better answers.....

Firstly I should apologize. I thought you were just some dick with silly views, but now I see that your demeanor was engineered and, arguably, warranted. So, sorry for calling you stupid and what not.

Second. I don't really know what to suggest, except for a couple things: Try to offer quick summary of any obscure concept or thing you make a reference to. A quick one-liner in brackets about "Learning how to live" would've helped immensely. You later rectified the problem about Avatar depression so kudos for that. Also, don't be a pushover, but use defensive language instead of aggression. I think that might help.

 

[Captain Blackout]

*snip*

Before you leave I have one question: Every time I go for the full explanation it becomes a wall-o-text that get me flamed just for its length. Every time I shorten things in any way, I get my views picked at by people who won't read the whole thing and won't ask questions and it turns into a clusterfuck. Every time I post nicely I get taken for a pushover and the trolls and naysayers alike come flying out of the woodwork. Every time I get tough, folks dig in their heels, attack what they think I'm saying, and avoid what I'm really saying. Any suggestions?

For me, I'll continue to post as hard as I need to, and if the readers don't want to actually, ya know, read, the hell with them they weren't ready for what I had to offer anyway. At least until I find better answers.....

Firstly I should apologize. I thought you were just some dick with silly views, but now I see that your demeanor was engineered and, arguably, warranted. So, sorry for calling you stupid and what not.

Second. I don't really know what to suggest, except for a couple things: Try to offer quick summary of any obscure concept or thing you make a reference to. A quick one-liner in brackets about "Learning how to live" would've helped immensely. You later rectified the problem about Avatar depression so kudos for that. Also, don't be a pushover, but use defensive language instead of aggression. I think that might help.

As a Taoist, defensive stances are great. Re-direct energy and the enemy can't touch you. Online all I get is people siding past me as they avoid what I'm really saying. Case in point: At NO point did I say OMG TECH IS BAD! All I ever said was that our approach to it was dangerously unhealthy. And yet, I was directly quoted as saying TECH IS BAD! I don't want the enemy not touching me, I want the direct engagement. It's the only way I know who's really reading and who isn't sometimes. Thanx for coming back and seeing past the rhetoric and thanx for the advice. I'm a bastard who has been using the Escapist for a while now to refine his methods. It's manipulative as hell but it's working for me.....

 

[Allan53]

#1: This is waaaay off topic
#2: Read the thread before you post (if you did, you missed a crucial point)
#3: Now for the real fun, the educational part:

Constantine started a new process of persecution. One of the first things he did was to defund a number of pagan temples. Not centuries after he died, while he was living. His idea to begin with. Constantine stopped the persecution of Christians, and started the persecution of everyone else. Furthermore, what he did against heretics was even worse. Prior to Constantine Christianity was a religion of choice, with various heresies around. The word heresy means choice. Constantine didn't see it this way. He ruled against the Donatists, then waged war against them, Christian against Christian. This is what Jesus wanted? He then held the Council of Nicaea an established a single Christianity for all, declaring heretics outlaws. The single most important theme in Christianity was compassion, and Constantine swept that aside when it didn't fit his politic and religious aims of power for himself and his new empire. According to legend Constantine was to cross on his warriors shields and send them out. The shield is a symbol of defense. Constantine took it a step further. According to another legend he had his army baptized, keeping their right arms out of the water because that was the sword arm they were to use to kill in God's name. Jesus wept. If Christians are to kill Christians and pagans are second-class citizens, how long before the pagans are burnt as witches just as Christians were before? Constantine wasn't defending an empire, he was building a monolith to his own ego. Christianity was meant to be carried to world as an addition to other's beliefs. Instead Constantine stole from others in order to make his monolith more palatable to them. There was another thread on here "Who would you punch in the face of you could". Constantine was a toss up for me with one other person. Hitler wasn't the other, because the raving mad didn't cross my mind at the time, just the trolls who find a way to philosophically fuck up the world for everyone else and truly know what they're up to.

My apologies, I have this thing about theology, I get a bit unreasonable. I apologise if I offended anyone, that was not my intention at any point. I will check my research, maybe I misread something.