The Dangers of Abundant Praise - Skyrim thread

[Manji187]

The Escapist's own Dennis Scimeca called Skyrim soulless: it doesn't give a shit about who you are or what you have done.

User "Vault101" says in his thread that the game makes him feel there's no reason to do anything ("Why am I wandering around adventuring?") and that all the quest-givers are more than happy to burden you with requests even though you are technically a stranger and they therefore have no reason to trust you.

User "Anthraxus" says that Skyrim relishes in shallow, mindless violence and presents it as the predominant solution to almost all problems.

And so on.

So the picture that emerges is one of a game that, at its core, fails utterly in the role-playing department.

And yet, it is praised into the sky (no pun intended). If its gameplay alone (never mind the bugs) can create such addiction/ compulsion in gamers that they're perfectly fine with Skyrims failed core...then Skyrim is just a very efficient Skinner box.

The danger is that Bethesda, inspired by sales and overzealous fans, will draw the wrong conclusion; that for TES VI it just has to provide an improved Skinner box...that it can leave out the role-playing entirely if gameplay is addictive enough.

The message is: "Don't think too deep/ hard about the details, just play play play...kill this, loot that, another cave, another dungeon...craft, kill, loot, stash away, ad infinitum ad nauseam (ie and so on forever). Are we having (mindless) fun yet?"

Could this be the beginning of the conditioning of a whole new generation of gamers? A generation that does not need genuine reasons, ambiguities, subtleties, only clear targets and shiny loot? A murdering, looting mass of magpies...of the Dovahkiin variety.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Any game can be reduced down to the outline you put for Skyrim. All Mario is is jumping and running... all of mass effect is talking and shooting. I really enjoyed the game and I'll tell you why.

The exploration and gameplay is fun. I like sniping people and wandering the wilderness finding hidden places. Nearly all of the dungeons provide a plot. You find a journal outlining a gold mining scheme gone wrong or bandit hideout that has suffered setbacks. If you don't read those journals that isn't Bethesda's fault.

I think people can play thing game different ways. They can wait until the radiant quest system sends them somewhere or they can seek it out themselves. To beat the game you don't have to loot anything beyond what you need to attack and some gold or potions.

I think people who don't like Skyrim don't understand the thrill of exploring really. It's half in getting through a cave and killing the monsters or getting to a quest objective the other half is finding out what's down here or over that hill.

If the game is too easy for you turn the difficulty up.

It didn't fail for me in the roleplaying department at all. I felt very immersed. I don't want to drag out an old adage but I think a lot of people want to hate on this game because it's popular...

 

[Seishisha]

It always astounds me that people presumably with a perfectly straight face come out with comments like isnt realistic the npc doesnt even know me but he wants me to get the magic toothbrush from the creepy bandit cave, yet all the while completely ignoring the fact you can shoot fire from your hands and shout people to death. its not a game about realism or a deep plot with important characters in all honestly role playing game is very much the wrong catagory for the most part its an action adventure explortation dragon fighting monster slaying simulator.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The Escapist's own Dennis Scimeca called Skyrim soulless: it doesn't give a shit about who you are or what you have done.

User "Vault101" says in his thread that the game makes him feel there's no reason to do anything ("Why am I wandering around adventuring?") and that all the quest-givers are more than happy to burden you with requests even though you are technically a stranger and they therefore have no reason to trust you.

User "Anthraxus" says that Skyrim relishes in shallow, mindless violence and presents it as the predominant solution to almost all problems.

And so on.

So the picture that emerges is one of a game that, at its core, fails utterly in the role-playing department.

And yet, it is praised into the sky (no pun intended).

Do you know what a confirmation bias is?

From Wikipedia: Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias, myside bias or verification bias) is a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true.

You've supplied us with three "quotes", two of them from users, discussing elements of Skyrim they personally found wanting.

You then reference the fact that the game was "praised to the sky"...it was both critically and popularly acclaimed. You HAND WAVE this, and go on to speculate about how all those "overzealous fans" aren't smart/insightful enough to appreciate why two Escapist users and Dennis Scimeca had the right of things.

I think you need to rethink your post.

 

[Zhukov]

I think people who don't like Skyrim don't understand the thrill of exploring really. It's half in getting through a cave and killing the monsters or getting to a quest objective the other half is finding out what's down here or over that hill.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I loved the exploration element of Skyrim to begin with. That first valley was barrels of fun. But it swiftly got stale. Once you've seen one tomb filled with draugr, cave filled with bandits or dwarf ruin filled with falmer you've seen them all.

Once this realization dawns, there's no motivation to explore. I'm not following a story thread because the writing is arse. I'm not doing it for character-based reasons because my character is a blank slate with little means of expression. I'm not doing it for loot because I have more money than I could ever spend and I can't find enough vendors to sell my finds. At this point I'm basically treating my map like a checklist.

"Bandit hideout #26 cleared. 37 more to go."

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I think people who don't like Skyrim don't understand the thrill of exploring really. It's half in getting through a cave and killing the monsters or getting to a quest objective the other half is finding out what's down here or over that hill.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I loved the exploration element of Skyrim to begin with. That first valley was barrels of fun. But it swiftly got stale. Once you've seen one tomb filled with draugr, cave filled with bandits or dwarf ruin filled with falmer you've seen them all.

Once this realization dawns, there's no motivation to explore. I'm not following a story thread because the writing is arse. I'm not doing it for character-based reasons because my character is a blank slate with little means of expression. I'm not doing it for loot because I have more money than I could ever spend and I can't find enough vendors to sell my finds. At this point I'm basically treating my map like a checklist.

"Bandit hideout #26 cleared. 37 more to go."

I find the caves different enough to keep me entertained and sometimes when you think you have seen it all you find something completely different.

Spoiler

Like the Crimson Nirnroot cave or the time I got sent to a 'tower' and came across a valley with an Ancient Dragon being attacked by a legion of undead. Maybe the innocent looking cottage with the bandit lair hidden in its basement.

The game never ceases to surprise me and that's one of the things I love about it.

 

[Wolfram23]

Well I mean it has some fun quest lines and a few interesting people there within. However, overall, yeah, it doesn't do a very good job of keeping track of your accomplishments (which are usually pretty damn impressive). It's no Fable (lol). Although guards tend to be pretty well informed about your progress.

However, I disagree quite hardily that it fails utterly in roleplaying. The game is full to the brim with RP possibilities.

The combat does eventually get stale, and particularily when you find the umpteenth bandit cave. I think adding a few new enemy types would have helped a lot. Although, I heard there's a massive (like, crazy huge) underground dwemer city thing that connects all the dwemer ruins... I'm betting that's gotta be cool.

Regardless, if a game keeps me entertained for 105 hours over 5.5 weeks, I'd say it's got to be pretty damn good even if it is "mostly a skinner box". Which I also rather disagree with since the loot is shit, all my gear is crafted.

Anyway, I was never big into TES games before (well, just Oblivion) so I'm rather impressed with Skyrim. If I want a tight narrative RPG, I can play one. Skyrim has many, many other features that make it a good game. Not great mind you, but good. Really good.

 

[Manji187]

The exploration and gameplay is fun. I like sniping people and wandering the wilderness finding hidden places. Nearly all of the dungeons provide a plot. You find a journal outlining a gold mining scheme gone wrong or bandit hideout that has suffered setbacks. If you don't read those journals that isn't Bethesda's fault.

I think people can play thing game different ways. They can wait until the radiant quest system sends them somewhere or they can seek it out themselves. To beat the game you don't have to loot anything beyond what you need to attack and some gold or potions.

YOU apparently don't have to....yet many seem inclined to hoard and stash. Why is that? The game promotes the behaviour through design. Also, in combination with the exploration aspect; don't you think the expectation of loot has anything to do with it? Or must we assume gamers are all interior design enthusiasts anxious to check out the layout of the next dungeon?

I think people who don't like Skyrim don't understand the thrill of exploring really. It's half in getting through a cave and killing the monsters or getting to a quest objective the other half is finding out what's down here or over that hill.

Like loot and stuff to kill? Differently textured and with different stats, but in essence the same. Fine, try pouring 500 hours of your life into it...see if anything changes in your perception.

It didn't fail for me in the roleplaying department at all. I felt very immersed. I don't want to drag out an old adage but I think a lot of people want to hate on this game because it's popular...

Immersion is like opinion, differs depending on the person in question. A popular, but ultimately flawed game is still flawed, despite its popularity. Are you suggesting popularity is a shield against criticism, however (hopefully) constructive it may be?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Nope I'm suggesting that because it is popular people want to hate on it.

I understand that you think perhaps Skyrim is objectively bad, It isn't. It provides context, gratification and challenge so its pretty much well rounded as a game. Just because a game isn't your cup of tea doesn't make it a bad game. I don't like COD or Battlefield but I can see why people like it and enjoy it.

Diluting a game down to it's basic actions can make any game sound terrible. For example, you say Skyrim is bad because you shoot, loot, and stash. What if I said Half Life 2 was bad because you shoot aliens... that's all you do. Oh no that must be a horrible game am I right!.

I've played it for 233 hours and I only have 5 achievements left to get on steam I can provide a screen shots if you like but my Steam profile is accessible from my profile page. It's not like I've just gotten it for Christmas.

Edit: This kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend over The Sims 3. I was a part of the building community in that game and I made loads of friends with really nice people and had great fun we would make up stories for our sims, promote each others houses and challege each other to certain builds with in money and space constraints.

To a lot of people TheSims3 is just some boring girly game where you make little people do everyday things but to others its a whole lot more because of how much imagination they put into it themselves.

 

[Manji187]

The Escapist's own Dennis Scimeca called Skyrim soulless: it doesn't give a shit about who you are or what you have done.

User "Vault101" says in his thread that the game makes him feel there's no reason to do anything ("Why am I wandering around adventuring?") and that all the quest-givers are more than happy to burden you with requests even though you are technically a stranger and they therefore have no reason to trust you.

User "Anthraxus" says that Skyrim relishes in shallow, mindless violence and presents it as the predominant solution to almost all problems.

And so on.

So the picture that emerges is one of a game that, at its core, fails utterly in the role-playing department.

And yet, it is praised into the sky (no pun intended).

Do you know what a confirmation bias is?

From Wikipedia: Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias, myside bias or verification bias) is a tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true.

You've supplied us with three "quotes", two of them from users, discussing elements of Skyrim they personally found wanting.

You then reference the fact that the game was "praised to the sky"...it was both critically and popularly acclaimed. You HAND WAVE this, and go on to speculate about how all those "overzealous fans" aren't smart/insightful enough to appreciate why two Escapist users and Dennis Scimeca had the right of things.

I think you need to rethink your post.

What did you expect me to do? Conduct a full scale academic study? All I provided were a small selection of examples. If anything is clear (at least to me from the countless Skyrim threads on the Escapist) it's that Skyrim is critically and popularly acclaimed FOR ITS GAMEPLAY (including exploration); i.e. the stuff you (can) do. It sure as hell isn't acclaimed for it's original writing and deep characters. You know, things that could've really helped the whole role playing part.

Popularity and critical acclaim are not criticism shields. Hey, I want to see a TES VI that surpasses Skyrim and I see plenty of room for improvement for a game that likes to call itself an RPG.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It sure as hell isn't acclaimed for it's original writing and deep characters. You know, things that could've really helped the whole role playing part.

I'm sure a moment ago you were knocking it for it's exploration... but okay.

I think, as someone who loves Skyrim, that there is a lot of room for improvement in relationships between the NPC and player. I would be lying if I said there wasn't. However, a lot of games suffer from this that are actually trying to excel in that area ie. Dragon Age 2.

It's not an excuse of course but I think that's an area games need to work on as a whole not just Skyrim.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What did you expect me to do? Conduct a full scale academic study? All I provided were a small selection of examples. If anything is clear (at least to me from the countless Skyrim threads on the Escapist) it's that Skyrim is critically and popularly acclaimed FOR ITS GAMEPLAY (including exploration); i.e. the stuff you (can) do. It sure as hell isn't acclaimed for it's original writing and deep characters. You know, things that could've really helped the whole role playing part.

Popularity and critical acclaim are not criticism shields. Hey, I want to see a TES VI that surpasses Skyrim and I see plenty of room for improvement for a game that likes to call itself an RPG.

No, but I expect you to have more rigorous support for your position than three cherry picked arguments if you're going to poison the well by painting fans of the game as "overzealous", or "A generation that does not need genuine reasons, ambiguities, subtleties, only clear targets and shiny loot". It's an arrogant, presumptive argument that is unnecessarily inflammatory and accusatory. You can have your discussion about Skyrim's flaws (lord knows it has some) without insinuating that anyone who doesn't share your conclusions is somehow deficient.

 

[Manji187]

What did you expect me to do? Conduct a full scale academic study? All I provided were a small selection of examples. If anything is clear (at least to me from the countless Skyrim threads on the Escapist) it's that Skyrim is critically and popularly acclaimed FOR ITS GAMEPLAY (including exploration); i.e. the stuff you (can) do. It sure as hell isn't acclaimed for it's original writing and deep characters. You know, things that could've really helped the whole role playing part.

Popularity and critical acclaim are not criticism shields. Hey, I want to see a TES VI that surpasses Skyrim and I see plenty of room for improvement for a game that likes to call itself an RPG.

No, but I expect you to have more rigorous support for your position than three cherry picked arguments if you're going to poison the well by painting fans of the game as "overzealous", or "A generation that does not need genuine reasons, ambiguities, subtleties, only clear targets and shiny loot". It's an arrogant, presumptive argument that is unnecessarily inflammatory and accusatory. You can have your discussion about Skyrim's flaws (lord knows it has some) without insinuating that anyone who doesn't share your conclusions is somehow deficient.

Arrow to the knee meme then some guy getting an arrow tattoo on his knee? That's the stuff I had in mind when I said overzealous. Real fans (think sports) usually are overzealous, i.e. excessively enthusiastic. What did you think overzealous meant? The generation thing (without the magpies):

"Could this be the beginning of the conditioning of a whole new generation of gamers? A generation that does not need genuine reasons, ambiguities, subtleties, only clear targets and shiny loot?"

The generation that does not need reasons (a whole new generation) etc is potentially somewhere in the future, when the conditioning (if that is what the trend turns out to be) is so pervasive it goes completely unnoticed (ie becomes "normal"). Yes, mere speculation...but not entirely farfetched. I was not calling contemporary gamers stupid or anything.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

It feels a bit like playing World of Warcraft singleplayer. Despite performing various bold deeds, gaining renown amongst groups and acquiring various legendary weapons/items, no-one seems to have heard of my deeds, despite Skyrim being a rather small continent.

However, much like World of Warcraft I manage to stave off the boredom of routine by using it to express my overactive imagination. My character has a history and motivations. Sure I did one serious playthrough of Skyrim, just to experience the main quest and the side quests. Much like I have characters on a PvE realm to do the dungeons and quests. These are the characters I get bored of playing with, because they're limited by the game's mechanics.

However there's my RP characters. My Nord who refuses to pick a side in the war, still uses his steel sword because he made it himself. My Dark Elf who has books piled up in every room of his house and a study full of soul gems. They're right there on even ground with my Blood Elf who retired from adventuring and lives day to day in Silvermoon City, hunting for his gold and then drinking away that gold.

Since Daggerfall the Elder Scrolls series has been about making the adventure yourself. You've got an outline of the world and you're told to have at it. Games are a limited medium at the moment and can provide a story driven, linear experience or they can hand the reins to the players imagination. Is that always the case? No, but it's always been that way for Bethesda since I've been playing their games.

 

[Manji187]

snip

Nope I'm suggesting that because it is popular people want to hate on it.

I understand that you think perhaps Skyrim is objectively bad, It isn't. It provides context, gratification and challenge so its pretty much well rounded as a game. Just because a game isn't your cup of tea doesn't make it a bad game. I don't like COD or Battlefield but I can see why people like it and enjoy it.

Diluting a game down to it's basic actions can make any game sound terrible. For example, you say Skyrim is bad because you shoot, loot, and stash. What if I said Half Life 2 was bad because you shoot aliens... that's all you do. Oh no that must be a horrible game am I right!.

I've played it for 233 hours and I only have 5 achievements left to get on steam I can provide a screen shots if you like but my Steam profile is accessible from my profile page. It's not like I've just gotten it for Christmas.

Edit: This kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend over The Sims 3. I was a part of the building community in that game and I made loads of friends with really nice people and had great fun we would make up stories for our sims, promote each others houses and challege each other to certain builds with in money and space constraints.

To a lot of people TheSims3 is just some boring girly game where you make little people do everyday things but to others its a whole lot more because of how much imagination they put into it themselves.

Sure, in general Skyrim is definitely not an objectively bad game...far from it. It's just that it likes to call itself an RPG (at least that's how it is registered on sites like Gamefaqs and Gametrailers) then asks me to bring along a ton of imagination and then screws up where it really should not have.

I could be the Emperor of All, yet nobody knows/ cares. I have very little lasting and visible impact on the game, even though I am the Dovahkiin. The urge to explore/ do stuff must come solely from me as a person, cuz the Dovahkiin is really just a blank slate for me to project on. True freedom? Maybe for some, but to me it feels as if I'm meeting the game halfway (I want to be immersed) only to be slapped in the face. "Here's a lot of sand for ya...bring your own shovel and bucket and do whatever it is that you do with it". If this is role-playing it is lazy and shallow and therefore unsatisfying (to me at least).

Exploration is all fine and dandy, but it can only work for so long until people start asking questions like: really now, why am I doing this? What keeps me going? If the story is uninteresting, the characters bland and the gameplay ultimately repetitive...why should I invest any more time and effort?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Nope I'm suggesting that because it is popular people want to hate on it.

I understand that you think perhaps Skyrim is objectively bad, It isn't. It provides context, gratification and challenge so its pretty much well rounded as a game. Just because a game isn't your cup of tea doesn't make it a bad game. I don't like COD or Battlefield but I can see why people like it and enjoy it.

Diluting a game down to it's basic actions can make any game sound terrible. For example, you say Skyrim is bad because you shoot, loot, and stash. What if I said Half Life 2 was bad because you shoot aliens... that's all you do. Oh no that must be a horrible game am I right!.

I've played it for 233 hours and I only have 5 achievements left to get on steam I can provide a screen shots if you like but my Steam profile is accessible from my profile page. It's not like I've just gotten it for Christmas.

Edit: This kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend over The Sims 3. I was a part of the building community in that game and I made loads of friends with really nice people and had great fun we would make up stories for our sims, promote each others houses and challege each other to certain builds with in money and space constraints.

To a lot of people TheSims3 is just some boring girly game where you make little people do everyday things but to others its a whole lot more because of how much imagination they put into it themselves.

Sure, in general Skyrim is definitely not an objectively bad game...far from it. It's just that it likes to call itself an RPG (at least that's how it is registered on sites like Gamefaqs and Gametrailers) then asks me to bring along a ton of imagination and then screws up where it really should not have.

I could be the Emperor of All, yet nobody knows/ cares. I have very little lasting and visible impact on the game, even though I am the Dovahkiin. The urge to explore/ do stuff must come solely from me as a person, cuz the Dovahkiin is really just a blank slate for me to project on. True freedom? Maybe for some, but to me it feels as if I'm meeting the game halfway (I want to be immersed) only to be slapped in the face. "Here's a lot of sand for ya...bring your own shovel and bucket and do whatever it is that you do with it". If this is role-playing it is lazy and shallow and therefore unsatisfying (to me at least).

Exploration is all fine and dandy, but it can only work for so long until people start asking questions like: really now, why am I doing this? What keeps me going? If the story is uninteresting, the characters bland and the gameplay ultimately repetitive...why should I invest any more time and effort?

I actually liked the storyline and I felt that my character was important to the world around her. When a Dragon attacked a village I felt a responsibility, I was the one who was supposed to protect the villagers and kill the dragon. The Stormcloak/Imperial storyline places a lot of importance on who your character is although I won't say anymore because of spoilers.

They do give you constants at least, your team mates Aela, Vilkas and Farkas on the companions for example, but I agree with you that they could have made those interactions deeper.

I felt motivated by the greybeards and the blades to fulfill my own destiny even if at one point I didn't want to do what they said. I felt guilty for not following orders or betraying them respectively

I did bring a lot of specifics to the table in my own mind of who my character was and why she was in Skyrim and also the way she acted. I think they left a lot of room on that point so you could decide for yourself There are a few answers for a lot of quests so you can decide what you character is like and how they react.

For example there is a deadric quest where you can basically decide to help or kill someone, you get rewarded either way but I thought it was nice that they put that in for me to choose as I felt no animosity towards said person.

Please understand I am trying to be vague to avoid spoilers hehe.

I think they did a good job of giving your character a role central to the plot but vague enough that it didn't interfere with your own internal roleplaying.

There is a decent article on the Escapist about the dangers and advantages of establishing an open protagonist.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9024-The-Accidental-Lesbian

This one.

I think it explains my point further.

 

[AyreonMaiden]

I think people who don't like Skyrim don't understand the thrill of exploring really. It's half in getting through a cave and killing the monsters or getting to a quest objective the other half is finding out what's down here or over that hill.

It didn't fail for me in the roleplaying department at all. I felt very immersed. I don't want to drag out an old adage but I think a lot of people want to hate on this game because it's popular...

You're halfway right. I'm gonna come out and say that partly the reason I'm not into Skyrim at the moment is the same reason I wasn't into Fullmetal Alchemist when it first appeared: The Roy Mustang/Ed Elric fangirls who won't shut the hell up. I blame it all on them, for Skyrim as well as FMA. Facetiousness aside, I own this side of me that wants his favorite games to get recongition as well. I wish Skyward Sword or Radiant Historia would get this kind of attention because then I could relate more to other people, and I like relating to other people.

The OTHER half, however, is conscious that Skyrim is honestly boring me for reasons outside its popularity. Right now, it's boring, but later on, who knows? I managed to get into Oblivion and people loathed that, apparently.

I've put 17 or so hours, laboriously, because the world isn't hooking me in the least. Gradually I'm noticing how the creativity and scope is being sapped from the series in favor of more and more soulless automations.

Most, if not all, quests send you to a dungeon and the Radiant Shitballs will ensure it's one you've never been to, so why would I wander into one out of sheer wanderlust? I can't disconnect that knowledge from my roleplaying experience, not when it's been touted to hell and back in the pre-release period. In Morrowind and Oblivion I got sent on quests where not once did I ever have to retrieve a doohickey from a bandit/zombie-infested cave. A lot of them were there for me to pursue the plunderer lifestyle and no more. I've not put a lot of time into Skyrim but I hear more and more from people that there's essentially one dungeon for every quest in the game. That "feeling" of "automation" and "randomization" is something I simply cannot shake when I play Skyrim and try to do things in it. I can't quantify it in objective terms, but there it is.

There's also the main setting itself. Once again, it's a human-infested region, and once again, it's somehow more boring than the last. With every game the creativity is gone. Morrowind was Indigenous on LSD, Oblivion downgraded to an Ancient Rome cum Medieval Europe, and now Skyrim is simply straight-up Power metal fantasy Scandinavia. The environment is not hooking me. I'm not compelled to look around the bend because I just don't care about the land, the aesthetics, or the lore at all. Fuck dragons. They're not shit but they're not amazing to me, either. If the next game isn't set in Elsweyr or somewhere non-human, I'll sigh deeply.

Quests were also given the ax. Less handcrafted and unique quests in this game than Oblivion and Morrowind, shorter quest lines than said games as well...In favor of a Fetch Quest Generator? I don't like this decision one bit. I like that the guilds continue to give you work, but after less than 10 quests I'm King Lord Jefe Archdictator of the Companions? At level 7?! I'd trade the Random Quest Generator for longer, more handcrafted questlines any day.

TL;DR - It's not all hipsters. Some of us actually have reasons, however subjective, outside just being tired of popularity. I personally don't like the direction of TES at the moment. The removal of handcrafted content in favor of automations only serve to show the puppet strings and separate me from the world that much more. Also, fuck humans and their predictable history and aesthetics.

 

[ohnoitsabear]

Yet another thread where someone throws around the term "Skinner box" (I really really hate this term) like it's the worst thing in the world without understanding what it means. Operant conditioning (the thing that skinner boxes were used to study) is not by any means a bad thing in terms of game design.

First of all, it is literally impossible for any game to NOT be a "skinner box." Pressing a button to move a character on the screen is an operant (learned) behavior, so every single video game ever could be considered a glorified skinner box.

Secondly, using operant conditioning in game design beyond controlling the game is also not a bad thing, and is used in far more games than you probably think.

For example: Repeatedly trying to beat a difficult level in Super Meat Boy (or any really difficult game, but Super Meat Boy probably does it the best) is an operant behavior. You don't know how many attempts it will take to beat it, and yet you probably will keep playing it until you beat it. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. Super Meat Boy is still a very enjoyable game, and the satisfaction of beating a level is enhanced by it.

Another example is Mass Effect. Odds are, you play Mass Effect for the story and duologue parts of the game, and merely tolerate the shooting sections. Yet, you still keep playing through them, because you know after a certain amount of time playing through the shooting sections you will be rewarded with more story. And really, would the game be as enjoyable if you merely skipped from one conversation to another?

I agree that a game that operates like a slot machine is a bad thing, and there always needs to be a reason to play a game beyond operant conditioning. However, the perception that a "skinner box" is the worst thing ever needs to stop.

tldr: Don't say that a game you don't like is a skinner box just because you saw the Extra Credits episode.

 

[Scorekeeper]

It always astounds me that people presumably with a perfectly straight face come out with comments like isnt realistic the npc doesnt even know me but he wants me to get the magic toothbrush from the creepy bandit cave, yet all the while completely ignoring the fact you can shoot fire from your hands and shout people to death.

Whenever this point is made, it makes me cringe. It's not about realism but internal consistency. You can suspend your disbelief regarding the fire-shooting and shouting because those follow the established rules of the setting. Unless otherwise specified, it can be presumed that all other aspects of a setting are like our own. To clarify, you don't have to be told that friction exists, or that an object you throw will fall to the ground, since those are the outcomes you would expect in our world and are, unless otherwise specified, identical to those you would find in the setting.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief

This is why it breaks immersion when you see a dragon flying backwards or don't see realistic behavior from NPCs. At no point is it said that the denizens of Skyrim are, one and all, fools who are incapable of jumping one foot off the ground to reach the PC, who is peppering them with arrows atop a small rock, yet such is what we see.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

You can ignore the shouts and fire because they're established facets of the setting, and as such are acceptable breaks from reality. It's only when you're reminded of something that makes no sense, even (or especially) given the setting, that your disbelief is no longer suspended. This is the creators' failure.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality