The difference between PC and Console FPS games.

[Danceofmasks]

Explain, please explain, how on earth a different control method leads to linear game design.
And what do you mean by a lack of sophistication? examples man they are the basis of an argument.

OK, just read the OP for goodness sake.

As for sophistication.... compare ARMA2 and whatever the best is that the consoles have to offer. I rest my case.

Bad analogy here as consoles came before pcs unless you refer to pcs being the square wheeled cars but then they cannot be as you suggest they are popular.

which came before is totally irrelevant, and for record the very first games were made and played on computers long before the console industry was born. The analogy isn't supposed to be a completely comparable one, i'm highlighting just one point which was to explain why PC gamers get annoyed by games designed for gamepads.

PC controls are amazing you can move in all of four directions at a time. Diagonal directions are for chumps.

You know, you can move diagonally simply by pressing two keys at once...

I was simply pissed off by another PC elitist trying to make himself look big because he has nothing better to spend his money on. That is why i have been responding so badly to your bad bad arguments.


I agree, what came first doesn't matter however in your analogy you seem to compare console gaming to driving with square wheels and that somehow it has become the norm. in this analogy you yourself make a point that what came first matters and yet you seem to claim how everyone is now using square wheeled cars (supposedly an analogy of consoles). this analogy claims that pcs came first and the fact is that before consoles gaming didn't actually exists a thing that people without the qualifications to make rocket ships had access to.(arcade cabinets are included in consoles as they are basically the same thing with the main differences being location and presentation. The analogy made by you made what came first important.


Also what actually is sophistication in games? i wish you would elaborate further than go play this or that and using very broad terms.

Arma 2 has review scores of 8/10s in general and that is from the pc gaming media. so sophistication makes a fun game does it. go have all that sophisticated gaming. fun is for chumps.

Oh and my mistake. EIGHT DIRECTIONS. I mean wow controls are awesome for pc.

What.

PCs can use anything.
Rarely do people choose controller over mouse & keyboard because it's shit.

Shit like square wheels on a car.

Like I've said before, controllers are great ideas, and they should be precise enough for your games to not to require aimbots.
The very fact that they're not is a travesty.
The very fact that you think that's good enough makes you the chump.

The console companies are taking you for a ride, you know.
There's no reason why analog sticks don't work better than they do.

 

[Continuity]

I was simply pissed off by another PC elitist trying to make himself look big because he has nothing better to spend his money on. That is why i have been responding so badly to your bad bad arguments.


I agree, what came first doesn't matter however in your analogy you seem to compare console gaming to driving with square wheels and that somehow it has become the norm. in this analogy you yourself make a point that what came first matters and yet you seem to claim how everyone is now using square wheeled cars (supposedly an analogy of consoles). this analogy claims that pcs came first and the fact is that before consoles gaming didn't actually exists a thing that people without the qualifications to make rocket ships had access to.(arcade cabinets are included in consoles as they are basically the same thing with the main differences being location and presentation. The analogy made by you made what came first important.


Also what actually is sophistication in games? i wish you would elaborate further than go play this or that and using very broad terms.

Arma 2 has review scores of 8/10s in general and that is from the pc gaming media. so sophistication makes a fun game does it. go have all that sophisticated gaming. fun is for chumps.

Oh and my mistake. EIGHT DIRECTIONS. I mean wow controls are awesome for pc.

I'm going to leave this here as i'm not convinced we're really having a constructive discussion, but in closing I will say this:

I have no problem with consoles or gamepads, I like both and in fact I think they're great in their own way. I Don't believe that everyone should game on PC's, PCs are not best for everything nor are they practical for general "sofa" gaming, there is a very good reason why consoles exist and why they are so popular. Further, my only gripe is the lack of games aimed squarely at the PC market... thats not the fault of consoles or gamepads, its just a result of the market forces involved.

All that said, I feel I have the right to have an opinion on the type of games I like and on what I do and don't like in games.

I'll admit that certain things have to be simplified to accommodate the consoles more simplistic set-up. However sometimes these simplifications can actually lead to a more intuitive way of controlling the game.

Thats very true and sometimes it really works, the problem is that the console's simplification has also spread to areas where it really doesn't do the game any favours, and thats a shame I think.

 

[tzimize]

Op is correct. This however is not dumbing down as much as working with inferior control systems. Dumbing down is other stuff tbh.


But yeah. Fuck FPSes on consoles. What a garbage concept.

 

[rutten]

can't you just buy a M&K for ur console and have the best of both worlds? I'm not sure if this works, or is even possible for that matter, as I've never tried a mouse AND keyboard on a console before. I did buy a proper playstation mouse for the original PS to play on command and conquer back in the day and that was awesome won every time...

 

[Danceofmasks]

Now respond by saying "but but auto aim is an aim bot" because its not. the snap on feature in games only focuses on the chest not the head and is only there so fire fights and game play are faster and in other games auto aim simply slows your aim to about half speed while it goes over an enemy so you dont drift past them because most peoples reactions arn't that good.
controls are better for pc no question but console controls are more comftable and if everyone is competing with the same thing then it is fair competition. The difference is not enough to warrant simple game design and that is the fault of game designers. doom and serous sam are both on consoles and control fine and i have no trouble controlling either as thhe man who decided to make this thread seems to believe.

I dont know much about game design but i can say neither does he so how he can decide console games cause this change is beyond me.


Also if pc gaming is so much better how come the minority of gamers play on pc?

"People's reactions aren't as good?!"
There's none of this fucking with your aim crap on PC (unless you use a controller) because it's the fault of the controller, not because console gamers have shit reactions.

We play CoD too, you know.

What's more, it's not a fair competition ... tell me you've never been in a firefight, fire 50% more bullets into someone (with the same weapon etc), and lost ... because you're up against the host?
There's a website had to jump through a million hoops in order for Activision to allow them to run dedicated servers.
That shit should be free for everybody all the time .. once again, you're being taken for a ride.

You do have a good point in that "hardware advantage" shouldn't be unfair.
I know how much I've facerolled people just 'cos my computer had better framerates so I could react faster.
I'm never happy about those wins, though ... I love winning, but I prefer winning fairly.

So NO.
You're either dense or deliberately not listening to me.
I don't have an issue with "everyone on a level playing field" stuff.
I have an issue with controllers being shit for no reason other than people continually sticking their asses in the air to get spanked by the multinational companies.

I'm going to say it again, since you have trouble getting it.
Once upon a time, the mouse was shit.
We needed to have our aim fucked with.
Now, the crappiest mouse you can buy is good enough not to require that kind of bullcrap.

How the hell are you putting up with analog sticks being terrible?
The only conceivable reason is that you don't want better controllers.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Snip/quote]

What.

PCs can use anything.
Rarely do people choose controller over mouse & keyboard because it's shit.

Shit like square wheels on a car.

Like I've said before, controllers are great ideas, and they should be precise enough for your games to not to require aimbots.
The very fact that they're not is a travesty.
The very fact that you think that's good enough makes you the chump.

The console companies are taking you for a ride, you know.
There's no reason why analog sticks don't work better than they do.

I have never encountered an Aimbot on Console shooters, maybe you just kinda suck? You do know that most of the better console shooting players have managed to play on highest speeds and get good enough to actually aim right?

Still I will say this: If I want to play a realistic type shooter, I will go play on a PC (Battlefield, Red Orchestra 2, etc). If I want to play a fun, quick shooter then I will play on a console (CoD, Halo, Gears of War).

CHOOSE A GAME.
I'll tell you just how much your aim isn't yours.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Snip/quote]

What.

PCs can use anything.
Rarely do people choose controller over mouse & keyboard because it's shit.

Shit like square wheels on a car.

Like I've said before, controllers are great ideas, and they should be precise enough for your games to not to require aimbots.
The very fact that they're not is a travesty.
The very fact that you think that's good enough makes you the chump.

The console companies are taking you for a ride, you know.
There's no reason why analog sticks don't work better than they do.

I have never encountered an Aimbot on Console shooters, maybe you just kinda suck? You do know that most of the better console shooting players have managed to play on highest speeds and get good enough to actually aim right?

Still I will say this: If I want to play a realistic type shooter, I will go play on a PC (Battlefield, Red Orchestra 2, etc). If I want to play a fun, quick shooter then I will play on a console (CoD, Halo, Gears of War).

CHOOSE A GAME.
I'll tell you just how much your aim isn't yours.

Sure: Halo

Honestly - who cares? Does it really matter? Trick question: It Doesn't. I am all for supporting the PC as well as supporting consoles - however it is people like you who take it a step too far.

What you are doing is HURTING the PC Gamer industry. Your continuous bashing of the console community make those very same console gamers refuse to pick up a M&K, they think many of us are like you: Rabid and Bitter gamers who refuse to allow us to touch a single console because they think we think it would defile us. That is how this stereotypical bullshit happens.

Why can't Console and PC gaming live together without the constant bashing? Does it REALLY FUCKING MATTER who is the best and who sucks? NO IT DOESN'T! Do I care how much of the aiming I really have? NO. I play games to ENJOY THEM. Which YOU SHOULD TOO!

/rant

Oh my.
You managed to pick one of the group of games that are the reason for the rage.
Thanks for that.

I don't even want to personally talk about it, since it's so ridiculously over the top ... read about it from someone else.
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=31787

And why do we rage at Halo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjp7c6tGYlg

 

[Danceofmasks]

Snip/quote]

What.

PCs can use anything.
Rarely do people choose controller over mouse & keyboard because it's shit.

Shit like square wheels on a car.

Like I've said before, controllers are great ideas, and they should be precise enough for your games to not to require aimbots.
The very fact that they're not is a travesty.
The very fact that you think that's good enough makes you the chump.

The console companies are taking you for a ride, you know.
There's no reason why analog sticks don't work better than they do.

I have never encountered an Aimbot on Console shooters, maybe you just kinda suck? You do know that most of the better console shooting players have managed to play on highest speeds and get good enough to actually aim right?

Still I will say this: If I want to play a realistic type shooter, I will go play on a PC (Battlefield, Red Orchestra 2, etc). If I want to play a fun, quick shooter then I will play on a console (CoD, Halo, Gears of War).

CHOOSE A GAME.
I'll tell you just how much your aim isn't yours.

Sure: Halo

Honestly - who cares? Does it really matter? Trick question: It Doesn't. I am all for supporting the PC as well as supporting consoles - however it is people like you who take it a step too far.

What you are doing is HURTING the PC Gamer industry. Your continuous bashing of the console community make those very same console gamers refuse to pick up a M&K, they think many of us are like you: Rabid and Bitter gamers who refuse to allow us to touch a single console because they think we think it would defile us. That is how this stereotypical bullshit happens.

Why can't Console and PC gaming live together without the constant bashing? Does it REALLY FUCKING MATTER who is the best and who sucks? NO IT DOESN'T! Do I care how much of the aiming I really have? NO. I play games to ENJOY THEM. Which YOU SHOULD TOO!

/rant

Oh my.
You managed to pick one of the group of games that are the reason for the rage.
Thanks for that.

I don't even want to personally talk about it, since it's so ridiculously over the top ... read about it from someone else.
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=31787

And why do we rage at Halo?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjp7c6tGYlg

I will repeat it since you didn't read the damn post:

I DON'T CARE! I. D-O-N-T. C-A-R-E! I DON'T!


I did read the post - unsurprisingly, many don't care. Also you do realize Halo was one of the first games that was a FPS that successfully worked on a console right? You do realize that what you posted is a game that is YEARS old and the tech that is used in it is not that way anymore or not to that extreme right? RIGHT?!

AND I'LL REPEAT MYSELF TOO, SINCE IT'S ALL THE RAGE RIGHT NOW.

THE VIDEO IS ABOUT HOW AIM ASSISTANCE MADE IT INTO THE PC VERSION OF HALO.

Being patronised is bad enough.
Being patronised due to consolification is fucking unacceptable.

 

[funguy2121]

I like both PC and console games and imo PC games generally provide a richer gaming experience. The only problem with PC is that many games are console exclusive.

As other have said a M&K for some genres really is the best method over a pad. Just like a stearing wheel is better for racing games, the problem is that console games are designed with the wheel in mind but never the m&k.

This is a shame as a M&K FPS is very different from a control pad FPS.

Here is a video of Serious Sam 2 HD


And This is Painkiller


Notice how there are lots of baddies onscreen to shoot at. Where the player must destroy the baddies asap while constantly moving backwards and sidewards to dodge the baddies and to herd them into a group to take them out in one go. In many ways a good PC FPS is like the 2D twinstick shooter genre in the way the player must be always moving around the screen and been dynamic.

Geometry Wars 2 vid, notice how the player experly runs rings around the enemy. A good PC FPS plays just the same.


The problem with console / control pad gaming is that it cant match the mouse and keyboard for the speed and acuracy even with auto aim, So that to accomadate the slower controls developers have decreased the number of baddies onscreen at one time to just 2 or 3 so the player doesnt get overwhelmed.

The only time most modern FPS games put lots of baddies onscreen are on-rails shooting gallery sections where the player is manning a helicopter rail gun and can esily spray the area in front of him with bullets, and because control pad gamers dont move or look 360 degrees as much as M+K enemies tend to be usually infront of the player, this also has an effect on level design making it more linear in nature.

While more slower paced tactical shooters like modern warfare 2 do suit the control pad a little better, it still isnt as good as M+K imo. Plus the PC has real head tracking like Track IR

Track IR in Arma2 (fastforward to 4 mins to see how in plays in game)


So when PC gamers are talking about console dumbing down not all of us are been elitist jerks many of us actually have a real point to make. Now hopefully you guys on the console FPS side will understand some points in what PC gamers are driving at. The Duke Nuken Forever game is a perfect example of console dumbing down, sure it looks nice and is fun but it would of been so much better if designed with the PC / mouse and keyboard in mind

Anyone care to tell me how the hell I embed YT videos on this site? EDIT thx Glademaster

You mean that console FPSs don't have super-human turning, and are therefore inferior just like real life?

 

[barbzilla]

Consoles were here first. in that regard they cannot ruin pc gaming which spawned from gaming on consoles.

also most games released now are multi-platform so we play the same games as you. also the serious Sam games are on Xbox live arcade unedited so do some research before you ***** about how paying way too much money to play games makes you a higher being.

Um.... You realize that the first games were made on and for PC as consoles were not dreamed up until after arcade games...

The argument isn't that consoles or pcs get a different lot of games, as a matter of fact the issue involved is that we get most of the same games. Because of this some level design choices are being made that some people do not agree with.

 

[TrevHead]

The original post was well thought out, if only a little condescending. The irony is, the madcap circle strafe play style of Serious Sam actually works on consoles. The console ports of Serious Sam, and Unreal Championship, and Quake 3, were all very fun. It's just that more casual players would find it too difficult to pick up, and seemed to prefer the run-stop-aim-shoot style that is now prevalent.

Yes you are correct in that those games been available for console. However the fact remains that moving, aiming and turning 180 degrees is much easier and intuitive with M+K than it is with a pad. And because pad players are less inclined to play in such an advanced style developers are dumbing down the games to accommodate them.

Im sorry if im been a tad condescending, Im merly pointing out the differences in playstyles. I state m+k is better then pad as a fact because thats what it really is, just as a steering wheel is best for racing games. That doesnt mean that other ppl who play with a pad and prefer that method are in any way wrong or lesser gamers for doing so.

Look at it from another perspective, many core console gamers will agree that even they too are been marginalised in some ways due to the high growth of casual / non gamers. Just look at all the tacked on waggle games on the wii and facebook integration.

Solution to the controller problem:

MAKE YOUR ANALOG STICKS WITH PARTS THAT COST MORE THAN $.02.

What's wrong with controllers isn't the fact that they're controllers, it's because they're SHIT.

You have a real point there.

(this is a bit long winded so I apologize in advance) When I started playing shmups I played with an analog stick rather than a dpad / arcade stick. And even though it was still shit for tap dodging, I manage to play most types of bullet hells even managing to 1CC the first loop of Dodonpachi. This was due to the stick I was using been very loose so I could get some degree of precision if I used as light a touch os possible.

When I was forced to replace the pad, The new pad had too much tension on the stick forcing me to be heavy handed which was no good for playing shmups. I bought another pad which was the same before I moved on to using Dpads, Ill add that dpads are of generally shitty build quality for most modern pads as well, only useful for weapon selection and not for actually playing 2D games

 

[Wolfram23]

That's a joke, right? Modern FPS games would be laughed into oblivion if they used that gameplay. The only reason it was ever like that is because the AI and animations didn't alow any sort of decent cover based shooting, even as primitive as Goldeneye on N64 had some sort of cover usage.

Also, movement is, IMO, more precise with a gamepad but aiming better with a mouse. It actually boggles my mind that there aren't any PC gaming accessories with a thumbstick for movement. All the dedicated gaming pads/keyboards still opt to use WASD type movement keys. It's just wierd to me. I wish that Logitech G13 had a proper thumbstick.

I half think you might be trolling me, but ill take you seriously. With the way you namedrop Goldeneye im lead to believe that you are a console player not PC. If so the the reason you think old pre Halo FPS games are rubbish is because you havnt played any good ones, just the sub standard PC ports that every blue moon was ported to console. In a way you could call those pre Halo FPS games as been dumbed down for PC .

Now imagine if every new game was like that, you would be pissed aswell, and we would be seeing threads with Console gamers moaning how PC is destroying gaming

As for you opinion on the precision of analog stick as more precise as a mouse, then you must be using a really crappy mouse. Plus the reason gamers still use a keyboard with the mouse rather then an analog stick, the reason is the need for buttons as the mouse only has 2 or 3.
Besides a good keyboard is very precise, ild argue that its more precise than an analog stick, considering many Touhou / bullet hell shmup players use the keyboard. Infact the best western player of Dodonpachi (the French shmupper Prometius) is a keyboard player. However most shmup players wont touch an analog stick with a 10ft barge poll, even those who are stuanch Console gamers.

Actually I've been on both PC and consoles since I was little. My first FPS games were Blakestone, Wolfenstein 3D, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Doom, etc, all on PC. I currently have a pretty sick desktop too.

Regardless of that false assumption, my point was simply that the old gameplay style of throwing a lot of ennemies at the player who have simple straight line pathing is pathetically simplistic. Now that AI can hide in cover or run around and surround you, going back to that old style would appear silly.

And as for controls, I clearly said a thumbstick is more precise than WASD but NOT more precise than a mouse.

 

[Cronq]

I've survived soooo many times in console games because I was able to strife diagonal at a 37* angle, compared to the 45* angle those n00b PC gamers are STUCK with. LOLOL!! Analog Stick = Precision!!!

 

[Kahunaburger]

I agree that PC gives you more precision, but I honestly think the importance of this thing is kind of overstated. Metroid Prime has an even worse control scheme, and is a better (single-player) game that 99% of shooters on either platform. Precision =/= good game design haha.

 

[funguy2121]

snip

I've never played Serious Sam, but I did watch the video. I think that's a poor example. I've been playing console FPSs for years and I started with Wolfenstein, Doom and Duke on the PC. Bulletstorm, Call of Duty, Halo and even Goldeneye had a whole lot of enemies bearing down on you at once. Most of them would stop long enough to shoot at you instead of chasing you with a giant sword, as in the Painkiller vid you showed, but you still had to contend with a whole lot of enemies at once. So I don't accept your assertion that console games only pit you against a small handful of enemies at a time.

The controllers for console games are created for one singular purpose, while the mouse/keyboard interface is adapted from one use to another: controlling a character in a video game. The two main advantages of the mouse/keyboard setup are a shit ton of hotkeys, which in my opinion are really only necessary in RPGs and real-time strategy games where you have to combine potions, powers, equipment and spells and control a whole lot of characters at once, and a super-human turning/aiming ability. It is dead-on precise, but it isn't at all realistic. That's not an inherently negative or positive thing, it's simply different. So let's take a look at those differences.

While it can certainly be fun to rapidly draw some enemies into a corner and take them down that way, it's far from realistic. In real life battles, be it an ancient one with swords or a modern day skirmish in Afghanistan or Libya, individual soldiers didn't/don't chase each other around in circles, getting in the way of their comrads armed with swords or guns. They work as a unit and use tactics, and they don't fire rocket launchers at you from twelve paces. The fact that console FPSs have two classes of speed-prohibitively sluggish and realistic-doesn't keep them from being fun and employing strategy to take down waves of enemies in the case of the latter. Not every developer has figured out a good solution to the problem of sprinting, but there are plenty of games that provide a fun challenge in taking down enemies or avoiding them while completing objectives. Let's take a look at a non-FPS and my favorite stealth franchise, Splinter Cell. The entire interface of the Splinter Cell games is unwieldy for running and gunning, by design. If you miss an enemy and invite a shitstorm of whizzing bullets, you're supposed to do what the military calls Regroup and Reacquire: move to another position to find cover, possibly use your gadgets or the environment to distract/deceive the enemy, then aim once more and pull the trigger. It's not pleasing in the same sense as, say, Contra, where you're killing literally dozens of enemies at a time with your infinite ammo weapons while running and jumping with superhuman acrobatics, but it is every bit as fulfilling, because every shot fired, especially the ones that connect, matter more. When there are fewer rounds to fire, fewer opportunities to fire them and fewer required to take down an enemy, that one shot that connects is far more visceral. This principal carries over console FPSs, where you can be as precise but not as (unrealistically) fast as their PC counterparts. Many of these modern shooters are cover-based, which makes them that more realistic (I am of course being relative, here) and requires strategy and timing. Even the old school Goldeneye on the N64 allowed for multiple approaches to taking down the enemy. You could sneak around and constantly backtrack and take alternate routes to divide and conquer, taking the enemies by surprise, or you could run in with guns blazing, which was almost certain to spell doom but also required to unlock some of the goodies.