The Dumbing Down of Video Games

[hailmagus]

Erana I think you misunderstood, the purpose of the specific example I gave you wasn't to talk down to you as if you were stupid it was to make a point regarding what I'm talking about. The question was socratic in nature.

Another question like this, to address what you're saying. Do you want me to go down a list of every game that has been released over the past five years and explain step by step what I'm talking about?

The Fable to Baldur's Gate 2 comparison is my way of narrowing down the field and picking mainstream hits from two different time periods, both considered RPG games, to show how dumbed down RPG games have become.

Are you talking about a plot-line or overall difficulty? A lot of people just don't give a shit about stories in video games anymore (myself not included) And you already know by now, whether it's your thing or not, that the achievements system has almost completely warped the industry... immersion... fa' get a bat it...

As far as difficulty goes... people ***** when a game is too hard, and they ***** when it's too easy. So from a developers standpoint you have to think it's kind of a pain in the ass to find that medium where the majority would be satisfied.

 

[Orbot_Vectorman]

Two words:
Console Tards

No offence Halfbreed13, but.... STFU... alright, not all console games are bad... and not all console gamers are idiots... trust me... and besides your "Highly Evolved" PC gamer types also have your fair share of idiots... any way, the dumbing down of gameing is mainly contributed by game developers makeing multiple sequels and or prequels to a game to please a certian fan base. And for the fact that game developers don't look at what makes a game good, they just go full steam ahead with what works for them... and their fan base. Any way, as a bussines student of hard knox, I have learned that to keep a large thing of consumers, you have to catter to them... in turn pumping out more sequels and prequels.

 

[NeonZombie]

Video games aren't dumbing down. I think the tutorials are more comprehensive nowadays in comparison to fallout 1 and 2. Also (although you may hate this fact an whine and maon all you will but) GAME DEVELOPERS LIKE FAST EASY MONEY. Making a quick an easy game that appeals to the majority of the public gets them money and fast. The games for harcore gamers are pretty much over. so you should get over it too.

 

[Mertruve]

Given the heritability of intelligence, games and movies aren't just dumbing down, all of society is dumbing down.

1. Heritability of intelligence XDD?
2. Ever heard about education? It's the reason for the average IQ actually RISING.

 

[lordofthepickle]

I like to think of myself as a young gamer who has discovered the treasure troves of the past. I actually prefer some old school fallout and morrowind(which required you to actually remember things from the quest you were doing, not learn everything from a dumbed down "quest log") to newer games like the latest foray in the call of duty series. on the whole Im all for immersion, and sound plays a bigger part than graphics for me and sound doesnt age badly. games like deus ex I found thought provoking, and making me think is a much bigger achievement than some Xbox-bestseller cum testosterone party cum mediocre shooter.

 

[Iron Mal]

I find it ironic that we're complaining about the dumbing down of video games, we should all take a moment to remember that they were invented with the sole purpose of entertaining us, whether that be with complex narratives and intellect or with mindless gunfire and explosion based fun.

As far as I can see, modern games are still as fun as those from the days of olde so they're still fufilling the purpose for which they were intended, if your not satisfied with that then it is my opinion that that's your own fault for being picky and narrow minded about what constitutes 'fun'.

 

[Erana]

Actually it drew it's inspiration from the book "The Marching Morons" and more modern findings affirming the reversal of the Flynn Effect, which was predicted in the 1930's by hereditary biologist. Actually the predicted reversal of the Flynn Effect played a major role in the Eugenics movement, which fell flat on it's face due to the inherent inhumanity and inequity of the methods being used, and the often illogical and racist things that were being selected against.

Eugenics, of course, is neither good nor evil, and should not be colored as an inhumane and inequitable idea just because those who attempted it in the past did so in an inhumane and inequitable way.

...I've suspended my annoyance of your arrogance in an attempt to hear your arguement, but you've done nothing to support your original hypothesis.
And with this, you just sicken me.
People are people. To be judged by their actions, not tests, nor genetics, nor age.
And who are you to be treating us like this? Comeon, give me some foundation for your acting so superior.

 

[Valentine82]

With rationalizations like that, I could just say, "Duke Nukem 3D, Half-Life 2, End thread."
But with the topic of this thread, I've got to say: "that's capitalism." Video games are, as a collective industry, following what the people are interested in enough to purchase them. I doubt that a single generation could make that much of a difference in natural intelligence...

Except my point is perfectly falsifiable, and it actually comes with an argument attached. I didn't simply say "Baldur's Gate 2, Fable, End Thread" I went on to make an argument that the games I mentioned have elements in common that are rarely, if ever, found in the industry now.

And yes, you're correct, the industry is dumbing down games for a good reason. Games that are difficult and require reading and thought aren't going to appeal to as large an audience as games that have big tits, lots of explosions, colorful graphics, and simplistic controls.

As far as a single generation making that much of a difference in intelligence, the baby boomer generations had a massive amount of children. Since the unintelligent out-reproduce the intelligent ten to one and started out with a large numerical advantage over the intelligent to begin with, yes a single generation can make that much of a difference.

Take ten million baby boomers, of which only three percent have an intelligence quota above 110. Factor in that those with an intelligence quota of 110 or higher will have fewer children that those with an intelligence quota of 90-100. Keep all environmental conditions the same (nutritional access, education level, ect) and wait one generation. After one generation come back to take a sample of the population, you will undoubtedly find a smaller percentage of that sample with an IQ above 110 than you found in the parent generation. It's natural selection, and natural selection does not necessarily select for intelligence.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Actually it drew it's inspiration from the book "The Marching Morons" and more modern findings affirming the reversal of the Flynn Effect, which was predicted in the 1930's by hereditary biologist. Actually the predicted reversal of the Flynn Effect played a major role in the Eugenics movement, which fell flat on it's face due to the inherent inhumanity and inequity of the methods being used, and the often illogical and racist things that were being selected against.

Eugenics, of course, is neither good nor evil, and should not be colored as an inhumane and inequitable idea just because those who attempted it in the past did so in an inhumane and inequitable way.

IQ isn't the only sort of intelligence and I believe that it is affected significantly by education as well as genes so I wouldn't start panicking yet.

I think that this sort of story goes back to the Time Machine by H.G. Wells and eugenics goes back further. The events of World War 2 did give it a bad name like it did to propaganda but like propaganda carries on under names like marketing, eugenics carries on under names like birth control.

Last and First Men by Olaf Stapledon is a SF book with some of the same themes that is far from dumbed down.

 

[Valentine82]

Erana, you mean the theory that Intelligent People out reproduce Unintelligent People, which has little to do with my argument about videogames being dumbed down? I'm sorry, but it's not my hypothesis. The Flynn Effect has been in reverse around the world, with developing nations and China being notable exceptions (Maybe population control plays a part in China).

 

[T-Bone24]

It's refreshing to see a poster who can give an intelligent disagreement, instead of just the average "Dur, I liked Spore, Spore is better than Plumber Bros for the Atari, you're an idiot" type posts I've been getting from people who disagree with me.

Okay, you're starting to annoy me. Firstly, no-one has mentioned Spore, for good reason it has nothing to do with this thread. I agree with Beltaine, you're seeming more and more elitist, in my views. There are quite a lot of intelligent posts in this forum, it's just that they disagree with you and as such you pay no attention to them and call them "dumb". Also, the guy you quoted didn't seem to be disagreeing with you, only giving you more fuel for your ego, by somewhat explaining your point.

I find it ironic that we're complaining about the dumbing down of video games, we should all take a moment to remember that they were invented with the sole purpose of entertaining us, whether that be with complex narratives and intellect or with mindless gunfire and explosion based fun.

As far as I can see, modern games are still as fun as those from the days of olde so they're still fufilling the purpose for which they were intended, if your not satisfied with that then it is my opinion that that's your own fault for being picky and narrow minded about what constitutes 'fun'.

Also, this guy wins.

 

[messy]

I'd say appealing to a mass audience is pretty smart, since intelligent people will always be in the minority it does not make economic sense to have them as a target market.

Also the physics and graphics require a high level of intelligence to make so from that side things have improved. The thing is video games have become more socially expectable and more social things, the further you go back the more solitary gamers were and in much more tight knit communities. So by focusing more on action etc. you got more people playing and thus more money in the gaming industry and more fun. Because as far as I'm concerned video games are all about fun. The level of story in a game does not effect in the slightest how enjoyable the game is because that's not what I'll be discussing mates. If I want a story I'll read a book (which I frequently do)

So yes video games have been "dumb-downed" but is the real question is if that's bad thing. I'd rather blow up some aliens with mates.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

Dumbing down is caused by two things:

Halo and console tards..... who support Halo.

This.

People need to stop homogenizing franchises - They're alienating the devoted fans. Remember the latest Wolverine movie, people got royally pissed at how the plot fell completely flat and did not at all comply with Wolverine's character.

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

Games like Planescape Torment can never be recreated to a satisfactory degree. It's one thing to write novels worth of text, and another thing to have voice actors perform that and have it in game.

The industry has suffered from fatigue as the technology has advanced and because of the increasing cost of producing games. Designers have become less interested in embellishing their work with content that gamers might not see. In finance terms this is wasted content.

Thus the seeming waste of money on games with multiple endings, just to take one example. Statistics show that most games purchased are never completed by their purchaser. You can tell me you finish all of yours, but for every one of you, there is a casual gamer that doesn't finish any of his/hers. Game production has become streamlined to give gamers that part of the experience that they demand, but have trimmed the fat on extra content that is routinely overlooked or never seen. In this way, they can take the extra money and put it into something else.

This is what is looked upon as dumbing down. Games like Planescape Torment can't happen again, because with current technology would be too expensive (the studio isn't around anymore, as some indication).

The closest we get these days is games like Fallout 3 which, although epic in their own right, hardly compare with the expanse of storytelling and overall experience of some of those other games. Instead you get recycled character models, repeated dialogue etc. all in the name of making things cheaper to produce.

Pizza, you make some interesting points about the industry that are worth considering. I somewhat disagree with some of what you say, there's no reason Fallout 3 couldn't have had a better written story and more meaningful quest options and dialogue interactions, but some of your points are particularly worth considering.

It's refreshing to see a poster who can give an intelligent disagreement, instead of just the average "Dur, I liked Spore, Spore is better than Plumber Bros for the Atari, you're an idiot" type posts I've been getting from people who disagree with me.

Any post that begins with "Pizza, you make some interesting points.." is win in my books.


Anyway, I think the reason is probably that developers have sufficient technology that they can now focus on gameplay aspects rather than having to cram in a giant story to keep people occupied. Besides, who gives a shit, if you want to play Baldurs Gate 2, go and fucking play it, leave us to play Portal.

P.S. Just because the story of Portal wasn't incredibly long and complicated didn't make it bad, It was actually pretty intelligent.

 

[Valentine82]

IQ isn't the only sort of intelligence and I believe that it is affected significantly by education as well as genes so I wouldn't start panicking yet.

I agree with you, and I'm definitely not panicking. However, the evidence for the heritability of intelligence is overwhelming, despite how non-politically correct it is. I've always found it curious that our society can accept that Identical Twins inherent many of the same tendencies and preferences, even when adopted out to different families, but the moment we bring up the heritability of intelligence this "All men are created equal" instinct kicks in and generates a moral panic.

In any event, we do have a more educated society and education can certainly effect IQ test scores as, though IQ tests are scientifically designed to measure intelligence and problem solving skills and intentionally not to measure a person's educational level, education does still shape the syntax of our thought and provides us with advanced tool sets for problem solving. The problem is, education can only do so much. Yes, you can have more facts to present to a class of students, yes you can educate them better than the previous generation, but none of that can effect their DNA, those born with learning disabilities still have learning disabilities, those born better able to absorb, retain, and recall information will still have an advantage in their class work.

More over, those with higher intelligence will still be more likely to consider socio-economic factors before reproducing, be more aware of their reproductive options, and be more prone to philosophical concepts that make them question the value of reproduction. Meanwhile, those with lower intelligence will have more accidental or unwanted pregnancies, be less aware of their options, be less likely to consider socio-economic factors, be more prone to act on impulse (IE "I want to have a little boy! It would be so cute to dress him up, I just love babies.", as opposed to "I've thought it through and have decided that I want to have a child").


I'd keep going, but this is turning into a wall of text.

 

[Kleatus]

And I'm sorry, it's hard not to assume the ignorance of someone who compares Portal to Baldur's Gate 2, I mean one is a fun but fairly simple pick up and play action/puzzel game that plays with physics and all that fun stuff, and one is a deep story driven adventure title with lots of dialogue and character development.

You see Baldur's Gate as a deep story driven adventure. I felt like it was more of a top-down hack'n'slash button masher game trying to be an RPG by inserting character building and walls of text. (I didn't care for Diablo either)

One person's interpretation of a work has nothing to do with their IQ or how "dumb" they are.

The same argument can be made for all media: movies, television shows, music, books.

Different things grab different people in different ways. Comparing your opinions to others and deeming them "dumb" if they differ from yours is just elitism.

I think you're confusing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_2

with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_Dark_Alliance

A console hack 'n slash (the design intent I'm fairly certain) instead of what is quite possibly one of the most immersive games (nevermind series) ever created.

As for the thread topic, my own opinion is pretty much summed up by the idea that it's 'trendy' to play games now and most people do to SOME extent. Developers are trying to hook more and more people since more fans = more cash. I personally have a strong distaste for nintendo for seemingly being at the forefront of this initiative. I work in a game store and half the number of 'pants on head retarded'(Yahtzee(TM)) customers I deal with on any given day at work are buying Wii games more often than PC/360/PS3. The other half is the HURR DURR HALO/GRRRZ O' WAR LOLOLOLOL frat-boy crowd who is just as common if not more so. Just a disclaimer, I'm not trying to generalize anyone based on which console they prefer. There are intelligent gamers on all consoles and it's unfortunate we aren't getting more attention.

I do, however, want to ask one thing of anyone who plays mainly on their 360: when you go to a game store and ask for a multi-platform game PLEASE state what system you want it on... other consoles DO exist, and let's not forget PC! Don't be surprised if the store employee looks at you expectantly for 30 seconds or so. This is a public service announcement.

 

[Erana]

Erana, you mean the theory that Intelligent People out reproduce Unintelligent People, which has little to do with my argument about videogames being dumbed down? I'm sorry, but it's not my hypothesis. The Flynn Effect has been in reverse around the world, with developing nations and China being notable exceptions (Maybe population control plays a part in China).

I meant your comment about Eugenics. Not someone else's theory.
If you were someone who demonstrated compassion and understanding, I could see how it works- in theory. But all you've shown is that you hold contempt for those who fit your parameters for "mentally inferior."
Your hypothesis, if I understand, is that the "dumbing down" of video games is caused by the "dumbing down" of people.
You have not established how you first came to the conclusion of games having been dumbed down, nor have you proven that people have become less intelligent. You have acknowledged that IQ, which seems to be your only basis for quantifying intellect, is flawed to an extreme degree.
There is no argument.

And as I asked before, what makes you think you're so much smarter than everyone else here that you get to talk down to us? I mean, if you want to be a resident smartass here, you have to earn some respect.

 

[ItsAChiaotzu]

Remember when people used to play board games?

Did you play checkers? Then you obviously were too dumb for chess.

Did you play Battleship? Then you must have not had the IQ to play Risk.

Did you play Life? Too bad you weren't intelligent enough for Monopoly.

Now... where did that point I was making run off to?

I think I grasp your point. It's a select few who can sit and enjoy a game of Chess or Risk, though I personally consider Monopoly a kind of low brow "Just keep rolling the dice and leave it up to random fate" type game where no real skill is involved... The game has some mods that negate that complaint however.

Just like those of us who can actually grasp the complex rules of Chest are rarer than those of us who prefer the simple rules of Checkers, fewer still those of us who can enjoy the intelligence and intrigue involved in Risk are far fewer than those who consider Battle Ship exciting, the same holds true for videogames. Not every man is a thinking man, Vampires: The Masquerade - Bloodlines is a bit too deep and complicated for Frat Boy Larry who watches foot ball and plays the Wii.

Have a higher opinion of yourself please.

 

[Valentine82]

Dear T-Bone24

I've noticed that most posters agree with me, and I have responded to the intelligent post disagreeing with me without being insulting nor sarcastic and I've actually appreciated them. The fact is that I've gotten some really stupid post disagreeing with me. My Spore quote was my own, making fun of that stupid contra quote and that idiotic Super Mario Bros quote. Follow the thread and you'll see what I'm talking about.

ShredHead

Forgive me, but some of us appreciate a game with a good storyline. Yeah I'd love to go back and play Baldur's Gate 2, except I've already done so about a dozen times. Funny thing, it still sells better than a lot of last years titles.

PS: Shredhead, excuse me, but I don't have a high opinion of myself, I have a low opinion of people who have difficulty grasping the complexity of a simple game of chess.