The Elder Scrolls Online Will Have Subscription Fees

[lancar]

I had very low expecations of this game before. Now, they're even lower.
I paid the monthly fee in WoW for over 6 years, and the only reason I continued to do so for half of that time was due to my guild, which I loved (kinda still do, as they still exist. Both in WoW, and now in swtor as well).

That they made TES into an MMO annoys me greatly. I really liked the last 3 singleplayer games in the series, and I really do NOT want them to take it in the mmo direction, as it's simply not conducive to the gameplay I want from it.

My point being, for me to even look at TESO, it'd either have to be a good quality F2P title, or the best friggin' game ever made this side of the millenium.

How is TES's gameplay not conducive to an MMO? Whenever I first started playing elder scrolls game it felt to me like a single player MMO. I feel like an MMO is a logical extension of what TES is, although I would have been just as happy with a co-op mode personally.

That's easy. Infinite custimizability without regard to game balance. In order for an MMO to function it needs to balance the classes with eachother, and restrict the leveling mechanics to prevent exploitation.

A common factor in all the TES titles thus far (well, at least the last 3) has been the ability to build your character however you please, regardless of game balance.

some examples
Morrowind:
You could build your character with only loose restrictions on class structure. You could build your own spells to do pretty much anything in the game like unlocking any door, or levitating over anything in any dungeon or in the world.
Did I mention you could even enchant your armor to constantly heal you? It broke the game something fierce.. and it was glorius.

Oblivion:
Containing the same loose restrictions on class structure, you could build your character to be whatever you wanted with only a little creative major/minor skill selection. Spell and enchant creation was a little more restricted this time around, but it was still possible to create some outright ludicruous combinations.

Skyrim:
Ditching the class system alltogether, and instead offering levelling incentives towards your own playstyle, skyrim is the epitome of freedom in the TES series. With the ability to blacksmith pretty much every type of wearable armor and weapon in the game, along with enchants to make them stupidly overpowered. Or how about enchating a few pieces of your armor to make spells completely FREE to cast? Broken as fuck, and we love it for it.


All those things, and that's not even mentioning the infinite modding possibilities that a singleplayer game offers. If there's anything you dream up that is missing from the game, there's probably a mod that adds it, or you can make it yourself if you got the chops.

The key word here is total FREEDOM. It's something an MMO cannot offer. It's impossible for it to do so, because it must retain absolute game balance, and be under the complete control of its creators.
Singleplayer games can (optionally) ditch all that, in favor of making it fun.

 

[EbonBehelit]

I'm pretty sure the average player spends MORE money in a F2P MMO vs. a sub-based MMO, not less. I mean, hasn't every MMO since WoW reported massively increased profits since converting to F2P?

God dammit Bethesda!

You're competing with GW2, a game which offer more updates and more content every month than any other MMO, doesn't have a sub at all, and is by all accounts is doing pretty well for itself.

If you want to shoot yourself in the foot with a .50 cal, at least do it with a less potentially interesting MMO.

Errrr..... they're not competing with GW2 at all - unless you count EVERY mmo to be competing with it.

By instating a sub-fee, ESO will actually be competing with WoW, the big cheese itself. This presents a big problem (which Wildstar is ALSO facing apparently) in that the game itself can't simply be good anymore - it has to be PERFECTION, otherwise it won't be able to compete with WoW, and will go F2P within a year or so.

Also, while GW2 does offer quantity in terms of updates, it's not usually quality content. I don't even think they beta test that shit, so it invariably comes out a mess. However, my gripes with GW2 are another topic entirely.

 

[EbonBehelit]

What. There is no Weapon skins in the store. All new weapon skins are gained from getting items during their events. I have no idea what your spouting but it's bullshit. Also in general new weapons? Um, you can't buy actual weapons with stats in the store anyway.

'snip'

At least with the living story there is actually stuff to come back and do every two weeks.

Actually, there ARE weapon skins in the store, technically. See, the new weapon skins are bought with tickets that you get from Black Lion chests, which for the most part require real money to open, unless you want to farm them ingame - the equivalent of working a RL job for like 2 dollars an hour.

My personal problem with temporary content is this:
Not having a sub-fee gives GW2 an almost lax vibe - where it's fine to not play for a week or two at a time because hey, you're not wasting money on the service, right?
However, because most new content is short term stuff, you can log back in after a 2 week break and discover that new content has come and gone, and that those cool weapon skins people are parading around will be out of your reach forever. Buying the game NOW and being late to the party has the same problem.

 

[Sight Unseen]

snip

The points that you bring up are very good and valid points that I had not considered with my previous statement. I'm just not entirely sure that the lack of those features will ruin the essence of what an elder scrolls game is, and I still think that The Elder Scrolls lends itself pretty well to an MMO setting. Allow me to explain.

TLDR: I feel like TES:O retains all of the crucial features of being considered a TES game first and an MMO second, and I dont feel like the lack of modding and the lack of balance will ruin the game for many people

Speaking for myself only, I have played both Oblivion and Skyrim and tried to get into Morrowind but got sidetracked by stuff that was grabbing my attention more urgently. Although I was always aware that it was very possible to break the game with some really stupidly broken enchantments or such, I've always avoided doing so because I feel like the game would lose some of its fun and allure pretty quickly after the game loses its challenge. I played Fallout 3 before any TES game and after the Broken Steel DLC I pretty quickly got bored of it because I got that super OP Ion Cannon that killed everything in one hit and I had like 300 rounds for it. For me personally, I would much rather have a game which presents me with a level of challenge that scales (and I don't mean just having the same monster types scale with me ala Oblivion because that's stupid and destroys any semblance of progression) with me as a player so that as I get stronger the challenge becomes greater to keep me constantly engaged in the gameplay and immersed in the world. While there is definitely a place in games to become a demi-god, I quickly tire of it because it presents no challenge once you get there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I'm sure that for many others who do enjoy being a demi-god in TES games that it isn't such a crucial part of the TES experience to ruin TES:O for them.

As for modding, yeah I agree it is very sad to have modding not be possible for TES:O. I'm a PC player so I know full-well how awesome mods can be for TES games. Again though, I don't think that the whole spirit of TES is wrapped up around the concept of modding. Console players never get to experience modding in their TES games and yet they still sell really well on consoles. So for a lot of people, modding isn't crucial to the enjoyment of TES. Even for those who love modding in TES games, myself included, I think a lot of people understand why it won't be possible to mod an MMO and will be willing to overlook it and return to previous TES games if they want more modding glory. This issue would also be somewhat alleviated if Zenimax Online lives up to their promise and delivers frequent updates, balance fixes, bug fixes, and maybe even seasonal events of some kind. I feel like one of the main draws of modding is that modders in their free time can often fix problems, add things that Bethesda should add, and tweak balance and progression in game faster than Bethesda themselves can so I feel like if Zenimax Online addresses the obvious issues in a timely manner like they have promised that it would in some way reduce the need for modders to do it for them. Of course we still won't be able to get the wacky mods and the texture upgrades and some of the expanded content that modders make, which is unfortunate. I have also heard rumours that TES:O might have some limited modding options for UI and graphics settings, but I'm not sure where I heard that from.

For me the spirit of the elder scrolls games is that it's a game where you're set loose in a massive world and are just free to explore as you see fit. There are quests to find, but most of them are found organically, simply by talking to people or finding a cool dungeon or abandoned fort and deciding to explore it. It's a game where any play style is valid even the hybrid play styles, and where you have enough plasticity to your character that you can change your play style mid-game without ruining your chances of success. It's a game where much of the story is told through the environment and that there's a ton of lore that you can access through books and dungeons if you choose to delve that deep, but is entirely optional. I feel like all of these elements are alive and well in TES:O and the game looks and feels very much like Skryim with a slight MMO twist, not the other way around. In that regard, I am very excited for TES:O, as what could have been a cheap WoW clone cash grab turned out to be anything but and I'm hoping that this game will be one that at least takes the MMO genre forward a step or two.

Yes the game will have 4 classes. In the videos they've released, though, they've said that each class is very flexible and can be played however you see fit. There is not one class that's pre-destined to be the tank, and one that has to be the healer. All classes can support all roles to some extent. Although one class might lend itself better to a certain playstyle, they are not locking you down or severely handicapping you if you wish to play it differently. they also let you eventually unlock the ability to quickly swap between two weapons, and that swapping will also swap your active skills which you attach to the weapon. So for instance you could have a 2H sword with a bunch of tank skills and see that your healer needs help to keep everyone healed, and switch to a staff and activate your healing skills to help. From what I understood, you can do this on the fly and quickly change your role as needed.

 

[Sight Unseen]

This is interesting. I had been wondering since first hearing about this game if they would do anything like this. For me personally, don't mind all that much. But, here is something I would like to know.

I don't recall which game I heard of this with. But in the game it was subscription based. But. It based it off of how long you actually played. If you bought a months time and played for five days, you would still have those 25 other days still there for whenever you came back to the game. Now honestly curious here. Why is this not used? Is there some form of limitation with such a style of subscription I'm unaware of? Or is this system simply not considered at all profitable and thus no major game uses it?

As for TESO itself. I will be looking extremely closely at reviews and the like when things get going. I have a slightly silly cut off point for if I would get the game or not. If the Argonians look like crap or are effectively not at all different from the other races except for looks, or if there is any sort of class/race limitations that make me unable to have my Male Argonian Mage and Female Argonian Warrior. Nope nope nope. Other than that, willing to give it a try down the line.

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that all races have a racial skill tree that provides unique skills and abilities for the race, and that there is no limitation whatsoever for race/class/gender combinations.

 

[Darxide]

I keep reading threads like this, and all I can think is:

Regardless of the drop in subs, HOW many million people still pay for that steaming pile of WoW? There's nothing wrong with sub fees, people have just become entitled douche bags with regards to F2P.

 

[Sight Unseen]

I keep reading threads like this, and all I can think is:

Regardless of the drop in subs, HOW many million people still pay for that steaming pile of WoW? There's nothing wrong with sub fees, people have just become entitled douche bags with regards to F2P.

The problem is that that's not really the right question to be asking. The proper question IMO is "how many of the millions of people that still pay for WoW are going to leave WoW for this game?" and as excited as I am for this game, I know the answer will probably be "not nearly enough"

 

[hazydawn]

These people have nothing to do with the original franchise and they have the fucking balls to say that what they are making is the "real" version.

That is indeed a scandal D:
We can only hope that this game's lore will be ingnored by future TES games as I planned to do ^^
Chaptcha is: white bread
fitting of this guy's image >.<

On the topic of monthly payments, I feel that no gaming experience justifies them. I've played WoW until I was lvl 80 and then got bored of it. Now even after all that money I've spent I would have to pay again just to be able to play. The thought of that makes me sick. If they want to add content to the game they can do it with addons that's a concept I can endorse. I'll never again pay monthly for a game.

 

[Daveman]

Not really worth it considering I won't be able to play it more than once a week. Damned shame. As somebody who probably wouldn't be the most hardcore user I just don't think I'd get my money's worth. It's nice to have loads of content but I most likely won't be able to keep up with it anyway.

 

[KaZuYa]

I see people still don't get the only reason F2P got anywhere because it was shoved down peoples throat by publishers because it's a HIGHER TURNOVER MODEL. Sure you can say you would never pay a cent on the game but it's still a exploitative setup to suck money from people, a lot more money than a subscription does and also allow them to treat you like crap and focus on what they want to like more stuff to sell. This is because if you're a) Someone who doesn't spend money but is unhappy with game content/mechanics you can go jump in lake or b) Someone who has spent hundreds of dollars on content and is to scared to walkaway from their investment. This whole system started on mobile gaming and it was utterly abhorrent and unethical then but now it's spread to triple A gaming people are up in arms about games not using the system which is there simply to exploit people.

If all a publisher can take off someone is $14.99 a month then they have to keep a lot more people happy.

 

[lancar]

snip

snip-snip!

I completely understand where you're coming from regarding the imbalancing demi-god issues. In fact, I like to play Skyrim using a levelling speed nerf mod that cuts all skillgains by -75%, all in the spirit of making the game scale better with my playstyle that otherwise would just rush the enemies up to Draugr Deathlords before the first session was over. I also refrain from making casting costs free, creating game-breaking enchants or overpowered blacksmithing armor.

Using this only to base my opinion, one could easily think I'd agree with you on every turn, right? That the game breaking freedom wasn't core to the experience.

But...
Oover the years as I played through Skyrim over and over again, spending over 300 hours in it, I've came to realize something.
The reason I'm coming back isn't because of the scenery, the lore or the classes (I play a mage type almost all the time, in one form or another). It was something else. Even with the levelling nerf put upon me, the restrictions i caused myself to have, the intent of playing the game to get more challenge out of it...

It was all my choice!

I chose to impart those restrictions in several of those playthroughs, but not all. I chose to break the game sometimes, and other times I didn't. And that freedom of choice, that abject power of the game, is something I could never have in an MMO.

And the TES series (and the new fallout) is pretty much the only one that provides this total freedom.

Think of all the other fantasy role playing games out there. What do they have in common?
Lore in all shapes and sizes? Check. Classes up the wazoo? Check. Skills, skills and more skills? Check. Open ended-ness? not as common, but it still exists.

But the level of freedom in the TES series is unheard of outside of bethesda titles. It's completely unique to the series, and thus I say that is what defines it.

 

[Lilani]

It looks like only middle class kids will be playing this game.

I'm pretty sure having a computer that can run current-gen games and broadband Internet access is something that most people below the middle class don't have in the first place. You yourself must be middle class if you think these things are just a given in any household.

 

[GundamSentinel]

My interest was feeble at best to begin with. Now it's zero. Good, one more thing I don't have to pay any more attention to.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Personally the subscription isn't going to be an issue. Like with WoW, I'll carry on paying as long as the quality is steady.

Play a game without having to pay separate for bank space? Or anything extra? Yes please.

Enjoy having paid $90 over 6 months, or $180 over the course of a year.

The thing is, if I'm going to be playing this game for 6 months I'll buy the 6 months in advance (much like I did with WoW) and I wager others will too for the pennies they'll save. But the problem with going F2P is that features will inevitably be watered down, just look at how bad SWTOR's F2P model is, their "Preferred" status isn't any better. And whether it's TOR's huge list of restrictions (200K Credit limit, no whispers, no trading, 5 auction house slots, vendors more expensive, 50% XP rate, 1 crew skill, 2 character slots etc. the list goes on) or RIFT's relatively minor Plat limit and AH restrictions, delivering a solid F2P is hard. I think LOTRO did a good job, I played for months before giving Turbine any money for Expansions. But I've yet to see a F2P MMO that delivers the same level of content that WoW does in its patches and updates.

I've often seen paying a subscription as an investment, in hopes that future updates will be good (it's a mixed bag, I'll give it that). Sort of like paying for your DLC in advance... which might seem odd to some, but it just seems normal to me. Maybe I've been playing WoW too long

 

[Yuuki]

The thing is, if I'm going to be playing this game for 6 months I'll buy the 6 months in advance (much like I did with WoW) and I wager others will too for the pennies they'll save. But the problem with going F2P is that features will inevitably be watered down, just look at how bad SWTOR's F2P model is, their "Preferred" status isn't any better. And whether it's TOR's huge list of restrictions (200K Credit limit, no whispers, no trading, 5 auction house slots, vendors more expensive, 50% XP rate, 1 crew skill, 2 character slots etc. the list goes on) or RIFT's relatively minor Plat limit and AH restrictions, delivering a solid F2P is hard. I think LOTRO did a good job, I played for months before giving Turbine any money for Expansions. But I've yet to see a F2P MMO that delivers the same level of content that WoW does in its patches and updates.

I've often seen paying a subscription as an investment, in hopes that future updates will be good (it's a mixed bag, I'll give it that). Sort of like paying for your DLC in advance... which might seem odd to some, but it just seems normal to me. Maybe I've been playing WoW too long

It doesn't have to be completely F2P, a one-time purchase with minor microstransactions (i.e. that aren't constantly rubbed in your face) is another route.
Yet another option is not charging $15, but charging an initial purchase fee of $60 (with a "free" 3 months) + $5-8 for all subsequent months. I guarantee a LOT more people will consider if it offered a massively cheaper subscription fee than WoW, it will make it seem like a much more negligible amount may even tap into the colossal WoW playerbase (I realize Elder Scrolls and WoW fall into different genres).

The thing is, back when WoW started it was extremely common for MMO's to have a subscription. The game saw a massive rise in quality and playerbase over the course of 4-5 YEARS (I don't think that's even possible today), until finally hitting it's peak in around Q4 2010 with 12.5-13m subs. Meanwhile pretty much every other sub MMO either died, went F2P or Freemium.

So Zenimax/Bethesda comes along - keep in mind this is a company who has made nothing other than singleplayer games to date! - and has the balls to charge the same as what Blizzard's MMO is charging in 2013...you get the idea.

All it's going to do is one of two things:
1) Raise people's expectations through the goddamn roof for aforementioned reasons and increase their chances of being disappointed + unsubbing
2) Drive away a lot of people and start-off with a fairly small playerbase because they not interested in a subscription MMO

It's going take nothing short of a miracle and/or INCREDIBLY hard work from Bethesda for this game to be alive 1 year down the road if it intends to stick with the $15 subscription model. This is putting aside of how notorious Elder Scrolls games are for bugs/glitches...they're amusing in singleplayer, but could spell disaster in an MMO.

I wish them the best of luck.

As for me, I'm happy with Guild Wars 2 filling my MMO slot, on top of slowly making my way through all the epic Steam sale games :S

 

[njrk97]

Considering they cant even get their single Player games without a crap load of bugs i dont even know how the multiplayer will turn out, and yeah that price for well, A most likely buggy game. No not on release wont be worth it.

 

[MXRom]

Considering they cant even get their single Player games without a crap load of bugs i dont even know how the multiplayer will turn out, and yeah that price for well, A most likely buggy game. No not on release wont be worth it.

It's been said multiple times it's a different team making it. But yeah, being an MMO their will be the inevitable bugs.

Still a subscription? Sorry but I've been spoiled by F2P MMOs to return to having a continuous tap on my bank account.

 

[Sandjube]

Yeah I gave up on subs a long time ago. When I have other mmo's I can play that I'm actually interested in for free/pay to play, subs are just not cutting it anymore.