The Elder Souls?
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A very large part of Dark Souls's carefully tuned combat is that everything in it is refined to a high degree. Dark Souls is actually not that large of a game, but the difficulty and oppressive atmosphere which pervaded the whole experience made it seem far larger. It was dangerous and exciting to explore in a way that The Elder Scrolls never achieved.
In a game the size of Skyrim, putting the same care into each environment, weapon, and enemy would be prohibitively expensive; even if it the combat was up to the quality of Dark Souls, being cut and pasted everywhere would make it get old quick. There's also that Skyrim has you constantly improving over a wider range than Dark Souls does which makes it even harder to predict how powerful a player will be at a given point in the game, so it's even harder to design quality content for. Even though DS has a similarly obscene level cap, diminishing returns on stats, weapons and armor with concrete and relatively low caps, and a consumable system that's far less forgiving put significant caps on power - something that Skyrim doesn't have (especially when you factor in Enchanting + Alchemy + Smithing synergizing with eachother). For The Elder Scrolls to get much better combat, I think it would have to remove a lot of the progression that has come to characterize it (not that I think that that would be a bad thing).
I do think that Skyrim and Oblivion have improved on their predecessors in regard to improving, and I am curious to see what the future holds for The Elder Scrolls non-MMOs. But Dark Souls/Demon's Souls are still in a different league of combat mechanics, and I really don't see that changing unless Bethesda abandons quantity in favor of quality.
In a game the size of Skyrim, putting the same care into each environment, weapon, and enemy would be prohibitively expensive; even if it the combat was up to the quality of Dark Souls, being cut and pasted everywhere would make it get old quick. There's also that Skyrim has you constantly improving over a wider range than Dark Souls does which makes it even harder to predict how powerful a player will be at a given point in the game, so it's even harder to design quality content for. Even though DS has a similarly obscene level cap, diminishing returns on stats, weapons and armor with concrete and relatively low caps, and a consumable system that's far less forgiving put significant caps on power - something that Skyrim doesn't have (especially when you factor in Enchanting + Alchemy + Smithing synergizing with eachother). For The Elder Scrolls to get much better combat, I think it would have to remove a lot of the progression that has come to characterize it (not that I think that that would be a bad thing).
I do think that Skyrim and Oblivion have improved on their predecessors in regard to improving, and I am curious to see what the future holds for The Elder Scrolls non-MMOs. But Dark Souls/Demon's Souls are still in a different league of combat mechanics, and I really don't see that changing unless Bethesda abandons quantity in favor of quality.
I would like to see the logic behind that when the game gives you plenty of ways to get through things without killing anything. If it was combat based, then everything would require combat, which it doesn't.endtherapture said:
But anyways, back more on point, the main problem with TES's combat is that it never makes you use anything beyond the most basic attack, not that it doesn't have anything to offer beyond the most basic attack.
Skyrim has plenty of things to make combat more interesting, including various power attacks, each with their own "how much damage am I gonna take from this/what kind of damage will I do" tradeoff.
-Backwards power attacks that paralyze people.
-Standing power attacks that do more base damage + decapitation.
-Forward power attacks that do bonus critical damage.
-Side-to-side power attacks that let you hit multiple enemies at once.
Then there is stuff like
-Blocking with your shield right as someone attacks you staggers them, which gives you a reason to time your block, rather then just holding the block button all the time.
-Shield bashing someone when they go for a power attack staggers them, which gives you a reason to time your shield bashes, rather then just spamming them.
-The Shield Charge perk which allows you to knock down people for a couple second, useful when facing a large group of enemies that are knocking your health down pretty quickly.
-The quick Reflexes perk which slows time time if you block while someone tries to power attack you, which makes it easier to dodge/shield bash them.
-The weapon perks that give swords additional critical damage, maces armor piercing, and axes bleed damage, which makes each weapon type have its own role.
They just never make you use any of it. It's actually quite a fun game when you do use it.
Everything does involve combat. All the main questlines involve slaughtering hundreds of Thalmor/Dwarven constructions/Bandits/Draugr/Dragons/Vampires. Try and get through any dungeon without killing anything. There's very few quests you can talk your way out of, and most quests involve being sent into a dungeon to kill things and then maybe retrieve an object.SajuukKhar said:
If you could use your skills to navigate your way around combat, like in New Vegas, well yeah then I'd give you that one, but Skyrim doesn't take that approach, it's just "kill everything", so logically they should make the combat better.
Also make all of the weapons distinct. Axes/swords/maces/hammers all feel exactly the same in TES, unnoticable variation in that case. Also the monsters suck. You can't even deny that, there's no interesting movesets and all that monsters really do it charge you with identical melee attacks pretty much.
If you stick to sneaking, bartering, and non-combat spells its entirely possible to level without fighting anything. If you stick to archery and backstabs, or high level conjuration or destruction spells, you can end most fights before they even start. If I remember right you could even beat morrowind really only being required to kill less than a dozen monsters, everything else you could run from or sneak past. As for combat being the point of TES, for some people maybe, but most people I meet talk about exploring the world or doing interesting things with the freedom the game gives you, or its modding tools, even the people that like TES style combat usually recognize that that's not why most people play the games. As for why have combat if the point is exploration, that's because even if its the main point, people still like other activities to break the flow, between exploring and experiencing the story, combat helps punctuate the game so it isn't just a hiking simulatorendtherapture said:
As for putting DS combat in TES, like people have mentioned Dark Souls' combat is suited to third person play, Bethesda would be required to eliminate first person view entirely to make it work well. The elder Scrolls combat system could use some improvement, but the answer isn't to just rip out another game's combat system wholesale and insert it into Elder Scrolls, different combat systems work better for different games. People have brought up mount and blade, that would likely be a better fit for improving combat in Elder Scrolls without having to change the feel of the old system completely. Another game everyone forgets about, that could probably improve the sense of impact in Elder Scrolls melee combat at least, is Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, that game had some pretty good first person melee combat going for it.
EDIT: Hell Morrowind let you level up just by running around with acrobatics, and you can level even more combat oriented talents just by paying trainers or casting random low level spells. The Elder Scrolls series has one of the least combat focused leveling systems in pretty much any video game RPG, I can't think of another system that would let you reach level cap without even killing a single enemy.
I have quite literally gotten through the whole game without killing anything myself.endtherapture said:
Sneak thief, or illusion mage, or conjuration mage. It's actually quite easy.
The vast majority of monsters you are in TES games are animals.... animals don't have "move sets" they are hostile predators which attack on sight.endtherapture said:
Besides that, the next biggest threat you face are undead, which are rotten things driven only by hatred or some magical command, again, not really in the position to have complex tactics.
Bandits, and bandit variants such as the forsworn, are the next biggest threat, and bandit traditionally operate on a "swarm them" mentality. Very few bandits IRL were highly trained in advanced battle tactics, they just swarmed and pillaged defenseless people
I do believe I already addressed that in my previous post.endtherapture said:
Right, you are going to have to provide your definition of combat.endtherapture said:
Between Conjuration, Illusion, Sneak, Alchemy, Pickpocketing and the runes from Destruction it's pretty easy to kill entire dungeons worth of enemies without ever engaging in combat. Or at least the definition of combat that i and (it seems) most people in this thread are going by.
I'll throw in a third:ERaptor said:
-Voice acting. Why after 3 games does it seem like there's only 2 male voices and 2 female voices for everybody, especially the generic characters where it matters the most? I mean, by now Bethesda has the cash to hire dozens of voice actors, and even if they are too cheap to do that, they could put in some voice effects and screw with the sound balancing to make them sound different at the very least.
For the love of God, *you're. Learn and apply.thethird0611 said:
OT: I haven't really played enough of either to appreciate their nuances, but unless you were trying to parry in Dark Souls I don't see a huge difference between them - just block then slash. The thing that annoyed me most is the lack of feedback when you hit someone. There's a spray of blood but the character usually doesn't even flinch (talking about Oblivion/Skyrim, since I'm not that familiar with the earlier games). Fix that up so it feels like your blows have impact and I'll have no problems with the system.
Until someone makes Dark Messiah of Might And Magic 2, the DMOMAM will have the best first person melee gameplay ever.
It's been said before, but I think the tonal differences between Dark Souls and The Elder Scrolls wouldn't make for a great experience.
Dark Souls is centered around the concept of inching along oppressive locales and learning by the skin of your teeth or after several consecutive failures, until you manage to borderline one-hundred-percent your way through the stage. The game's failure state is there as a reminder that you haven't buffed up your knowledge of the varying mobs and their attack patterns enough, it mocks you for attempting challenges you aren't all but entirely ready to face.
Skyrim is much more forgiving, even on Legendary difficulty. There are no tactics other than hoping that your damage values are high enough to obliterate all opposition before they obliterate you. Seeing as you're the Dragonborn, the game tries its hardest to make you feel significant in the game's world, or at least powerful and notable.
As someone else has noted, you're nobody special in the Souls games. You're just one guy who has the audacity and sheer luck to think he can rise up to the challenges ahead. In a way, the Souls games treat the player in the same way Diablo II treated its own players. Your character class and build never really mattered to Sanctuary; all that really mattered to Tyrael et co. was your ability to kick demon ass.
Tonally, the differences are huge. The gameplay reflects that, seeing as Skyrim is largely okay with you bashing Alduin with a warhammer while quaffing twenty health potions in one go. On the other hand, Dark Souls actively punishes you for using mechanics that make life easier on you. I don't suppose I need to remind anyone of how the first game's Estus flask was as much a blessing as it was an intentional hindrance; what with its prolonged healing animation that left you a sitting duck.
Dark Souls is centered around the concept of inching along oppressive locales and learning by the skin of your teeth or after several consecutive failures, until you manage to borderline one-hundred-percent your way through the stage. The game's failure state is there as a reminder that you haven't buffed up your knowledge of the varying mobs and their attack patterns enough, it mocks you for attempting challenges you aren't all but entirely ready to face.
Skyrim is much more forgiving, even on Legendary difficulty. There are no tactics other than hoping that your damage values are high enough to obliterate all opposition before they obliterate you. Seeing as you're the Dragonborn, the game tries its hardest to make you feel significant in the game's world, or at least powerful and notable.
As someone else has noted, you're nobody special in the Souls games. You're just one guy who has the audacity and sheer luck to think he can rise up to the challenges ahead. In a way, the Souls games treat the player in the same way Diablo II treated its own players. Your character class and build never really mattered to Sanctuary; all that really mattered to Tyrael et co. was your ability to kick demon ass.
Tonally, the differences are huge. The gameplay reflects that, seeing as Skyrim is largely okay with you bashing Alduin with a warhammer while quaffing twenty health potions in one go. On the other hand, Dark Souls actively punishes you for using mechanics that make life easier on you. I don't suppose I need to remind anyone of how the first game's Estus flask was as much a blessing as it was an intentional hindrance; what with its prolonged healing animation that left you a sitting duck.
I wouldn't say the combat system, per say, is responsible for Dark Souls atmosphere.IamLEAM1983 said:
That's a combination of the bonfire system, the lack of NPCs, the art style, the locales, the sound effects of the monsters, the system for gaining exp and souls, in my opinion is far more responsible for the game feeling oppressive and desolate.
The combat system is merely a fairly tactical, slow and responsive combat system. It definitely emphasizes knowing the moves you and your opponents possess, but I reckon a slightly more arcadey version would work for TES, with everything a bit less brutal, slightly sped up, and with a mana system instead of a limited use of spells.
You've got to admit TES is imbalanced towards Mages. Melee and archers have unlimited stamina to use their attacks, but Mages have their finite magic system. Dark Souls stamina system would help o make this better.
Having not played DS (I did try demons souls for a few hours however) I might be wrong, but isn't the point of DS that the encounters are fixed, and supposed to be approached with caution? For me, TES is about exploration over combat, and I just can't see the brutal DS combat working in a TES game.
To be honest, I'm with SovietHeavy. The problem lies less with the combat system and more with the AI and encounter design.
To be honest, I'm with SovietHeavy. The problem lies less with the combat system and more with the AI and encounter design.
Although I've never played Dark Souls, I'm perfectly happy with the way TES deals with combat already. The only mechanic I would like to see is some sort of passive dodging ability rather than only the use of a shield. Basically, I'd like Acrobatics to come back as a skill.
Perhaps I'm just not very aware of how combat mechanics work, but I find it satisfactory.
EDIT: In terms of boss fights, I do agree that TES lacks there, especially with the rather lacklustre final quest fight. I think Dragonborn took a few good steps forward, though - I loved the Miraak fight, and that optional frost giant king really had me on my toes.
Perhaps I'm just not very aware of how combat mechanics work, but I find it satisfactory.
EDIT: In terms of boss fights, I do agree that TES lacks there, especially with the rather lacklustre final quest fight. I think Dragonborn took a few good steps forward, though - I loved the Miraak fight, and that optional frost giant king really had me on my toes.