The Ethics of "Project Harpoon"

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gigastar

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Sep 13, 2010
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And here i thought the SJWs of 4chan...

Im not even going to finish that sentence, 4chan is always 4chan. Theese ones are just have a superiority complex.

Anyway, adding this one to my Big Book o' Reasons to Stay the Fuck off Social Media at All Costs.
 

eberhart

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Dec 20, 2012
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Queen Michael said:
Imagine if it was like this with illiteracy. We'd constantly say that illiterate people are ugly and unattractive, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"
That's... not entirely useful analogy, quite "apples and oranges"-ey.

Imagine seeing claims that illiterate people can function well in a modern society, that putting any pressure on them is pretty much "ableism".[footnote]It may sound extreme and unlikely, but imagine it's an over-the-top extension of (already strained) policy of accomodating various "dys-" labels. Hell, you don't really need to go over the top, just couple it with depressing effects of "cover-my-ass" attitude, second-rate skill and work ethics plus everyday-level corruption among people responsible for assigning those labels.[/footnote] Now, if your example was more like:

We'd constantly say that illiterate people are obviously retarded, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"
...then its merit would be easier to accept. Insults above are at least seemingly related to the problem, while still managing to be over-the-top and misused, even as insults.

On the other hand... imagine some idiotic campaigns like "Make *important* TV/VG characters more "normal" ie. they should be closer to near-illiteracy level of (too) many students because... representation". It's one thing with Deadwood, but popular culture embracing "sorta illiteracy, cool" in general is shooting itself in a foot, encouraging a race to the bottom. [footnote]Hey, I guess it already happeened, to some extent - at least looking at a devolution of mass-media over several decades, with internet years as Turbo Mode. Different subject, similar racing rules.[/footnote] Now, if I had to choose between a social campaign that hurls insults at illiterate people and one that normalizes their state, both would have their own shit outweighing everything else. But as a reactionary move, after the "positive" version gets at least some media traction? My bar is suddenly not that high anymore - especialy when there's little noticeable counteraction from "normal", "polite" side of society, apparently too afraid of coming out as inpolite. Kinda sucks that 4chan, of all places, gets to push that pendulum back, even if a few milimeters.
 

SecondPrize

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Mar 12, 2012
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CrystalShadow said:
The Lunatic said:
Stuff like this technically falls under the "Parody" clause of "Fair Use".

As such, when you upload your images to websites such as Facebook or whatever, you enter into a contract with these organizations which outlines what your images may or may not be used for. These rights have to abide by copy right laws, and one of those laws is the right to "Fair Use".

Now, it could be argued that it is not "Fair use" is not being followed if the photos are used maliciously, but, instead it seems they're being used to mock a movement or organization rather than individuals.

So, to surmise, photos you upload to Facebook aren't owned by you, regardless of how personal you feel about them, and people technically have a right to use them for stuff. Be careful what you upload. However, by all accounts, no site is required to host the content, so, it being removed isn't really censorship, though it is a little bit of a double standard.
Oh, no no, no, no!

People might act like that's true, but it's blatantly false.

To begin with, copyright is innate. So anything a person makes is copyrighted by default.
Secondly, the Terms of Service for Facebook (and pretty much any similar site) don't negate your ownership. That is complete and utter paranoid and or delusional nonsense.

What these sites do, is effectively to give them a non-exclusive perpetual right to use your work any way they see fit.

Note it gives facebook that right (in this example) not every random stranger and person that happens to see your stuff.

So, Facebook can legally use your stuff in any way they like. (advertising, promotion, whatever). But they don't own anything.
But other people cannot. That's copyright violation, even if it isn't practical to enforce.

You do. That's reality. By definition of how the laws work, I own this forum post I'm making as well.
You can almost guarantee that Defy media has it in their TOS that by agreeing to use these forums, I give them the right to do whatever they like with what I post here.
That doesn't mean they own it.
Just means I can't complain if they do whatever they like to it.
Your right to mess with it (quote bits of it, and so on) aren't because I no longer own it, but because it falls within the rights I've granted Defy Media by posting it here.

That's the legal reality.
Can I enforce that in any meaningful sense? No. Of course not. (nor do I see any point in doing so)
But it's still true.

Fair use is an entirely different matter, and shouldn't be confused with anything else.

Fair use says you may be allowed to use my copyrighted stuff even though I haven't given you permission of any kind to do so.(remember that me posting on facebook or here is me giving implicit permission for Facebook or the Escapist permission to use my stuff. Doesn't give them ownership of it, just permission to use it.)

What is considered fair use varies. (and it's not a universally accepted concept; Not all countries have such a provision, and given that the internet spans the entire planet, something that's 'fair use' in one place can still be violating copyright in another).

But regardless of if fair use applies, or if what you're doing is indirectly covered by some prior agreement a person makes with an organisation like facebook, what is definitely not the case, is that a person loses ownership of their work simply by putting it on a site such as facebook (or youtube. Or here. Or whatever).

Sure, you can't practically expect that to be respected on the internet, but it is really, really annoying that people are so used to it they don't even realise the original creator still owns the copyright regardless.

Granting someone rights to use something is not the same as granting them ownership.

People get used to weird stuff and think that's the way the rules work. But it isn't.

Maybe it should be, but then, why is it acceptable for a big company to sue you for putting their TV show on youtube, but if someone copies your picture off facebook without permission you should just 'get over it, you don't own it anymore! If you didn't want people copying it, don't put it online!'

Because, that is clearly stupid. Either copyright means something, or it doesn't, and we desperately need to decide which. Because when it's something that only has meaning if you're some big company with lots of lawyers, then it becomes a great way for said corporations to be incredibly abusive.

But that's a side issue to what's happening here.
Which is that some people apparently believe things which simply aren't true.

Does it happen online? Yes.
Does it happen a lot, in fact? Yes.

But that doesn't automatically make it OK.
Copyright gains much of its meaning where money is being made. If I take a broadcast and stream it somewhere where I get sub money or ad revenue, i'm in the wrong. If I take a photo and put it somewhere where I can't earn anything form it, I'm okay. Same with someone's image. I can take your photo all I want from a public place and use it for a portfolio or display it in a show. If I want to sell it to a stock agency or use it for an advertisement, however, I will need your consent.
 

Queen Michael

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Jun 9, 2009
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eberhart said:
Queen Michael said:
Imagine if it was like this with illiteracy. We'd constantly say that illiterate people are ugly and unattractive, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"
That's... not entirely useful analogy, quite "apples and oranges"-ey.

Imagine seeing claims that illiterate people can function well in a modern society, that putting any pressure on them is pretty much "ableism".[footnote]It may sound extreme and unlikely, but imagine it's an over-the-top extension of (already strained) policy of accomodating various "dys-" labels. Hell, you don't really need to go over the top, just couple it with depressing effects of "cover-my-ass" attitude, second-rate skill and work ethics plus everyday-level corruption among people responsible for assigning those labels.[/footnote] Now, if your example was more like:

We'd constantly say that illiterate people are obviously retarded, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"
...then its merit would be easier to accept. Insults above are at least seemingly related to the problem, while still managing to be over-the-top and misused, even as insults.

On the other hand... imagine some idiotic campaigns like "Make *important* TV/VG characters more "normal" ie. they should be closer to near-illiteracy level of (too) many students because... representation". It's one thing with Deadwood, but popular culture embracing "sorta illiteracy, cool" in general is shooting itself in a foot, encouraging a race to the bottom. [footnote]Hey, I guess it already happeened, to some extent - at least looking at a devolution of mass-media over several decades, with internet years as Turbo Mode. Different subject, similar racing rules.[/footnote] Now, if I had to choose between a social campaign that hurls insults at illiterate people and one that normalizes their state, both would have their own shit outweighing everything else. But as a reactionary move, after the "positive" version gets at least some media traction? My bar is suddenly not that high anymore - especialy when there's little noticeable counteraction from "normal", "polite" side of society, apparently too afraid of coming out as inpolite. Kinda sucks that 4chan, of all places, gets to push that pendulum back, even if a few milimeters.
To go along with the TV character analogy, I don't think it's too much to ask that TV occasionally acknowledge that dyslexics exist.

And skipping the analogy for a while, let's be honest--there is pretty much no risk that the fat acceptance movement will actually make people ignore the health risks associated with fatness. All that it might accomplish is stuff like making people stop looking down on fat folks.

Besides, there are two possible explanations about why somebody is fat:

1. He doesn't like to excercise, and he loves fatty foods. In which case, hey, it's his life to live the way he wants, and in the end he'll die anyway. I never got the idea that dying at 90 is a much happier ending than dying at fifty, when in the long run it doesn't change anything at all.

2. He's the kind of person who can't keep a healthy weight unless he devotes literally all his time to it. Let's be honest--if this is the case, it's just not worth it.
 

F4TK

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Reminds me a lot of the people that end up in meme pictures. Scumbag Steve, Sudden realisation guy or Overly attached girlfriend. They had photos on the net, endlessly reproduced. What can they do about it? Pretty much just roll with it.
The internet has you now.
 

spartan231490

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Jan 14, 2010
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If you post an image to the internet voluntarily, you have no right to cry about privacy.

As for "project harpoon" it sounds funny as fuck and I wish I'd seen it before the pages got tore down, but I'm not sure what, if anything, they actually expected to accomplish.
 

renegade7

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Feb 9, 2011
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DizzyChuggernaut said:
proportions the average American female (ie. overweight).
Ugh, why? The "average American female" is not a body type anyone should be aspiring to, statistically speaking having the body of the average American is a risk factor for early death on par with being a smoker for your entire life (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23404873 http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/). Is this supposed to be some kind of viral marketing for McDonald's, or something?

Sure, it's kind of an asshole thing to do on the part of the members of "Project Harpoon", but why give them attention by engaging with them?
 

eberhart

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Dec 20, 2012
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Queen Michael said:
To go along with the TV character analogy, I don't think it's too much to ask that TV occasionally acknowledge that dyslexics exist.
Acknowledge that dyslexics exist - sure. That 1st world illiteracy exists - not sure about the point, but ok.

Let's make some of "cool" characters illiterate? ...er, wtf for? (Inb4 "catering to a growing audience")

Even Wired, which could easily put many things under its "showing a society as it is" umbrella, had importance of education pushed to near-comical levels, with drug kingpin as a star pupil.

Queen Michael said:
And skipping the analogy for a while, let's be honest--there is pretty much no risk that the fat acceptance movement will actually make people ignore the health risks associated with fatness. All that it might accomplish is stuff like making people stop looking down on fat folks.
Oh, there's no doubt about that - both "trigger" and 4chan's reaction are waddling in a very small and shallow pond. Both are typical "1st world controversies" that have bigger impact in getting some short-term emotional reactions than in changing anything about society. All hyperbolic statements could (and should) be easily treated as "internet speak", where "I hate this shit !!1!" is a very accurate translation of "I dislike this product". As long as relative equivalence of both campaigns is remembered, there's no danger of ending up with some crazy expectations/fears.

It's obviously different for owners of those pictures, who experience it on personal level - but, on the other side, 4chan would probably find a different target or at least less conviction in their antics if "polite" side of society was seen as capable of casually refuting such small-scale bs. I can imagine it's not being seen as such for quite a while - and for, usually, good reason. I am not buying "victim blaming" either - if anything, they are not being blamed for 4channers misusing their pictures - just for their stupidity, exhibited in an expectation or even angry demand that nothing ever happens to things they post online. Doubly so for people who even got paid. Triply so for people using Internet for more than a month.

Queen Michael said:
Besides, there are two possible explanations about why somebody is fat:
In all honesty, illiterate person would fit in there as well, but it's not necessarily about them anyway.

As any kind of "social activism" or even a parody of such[footnote]We can too often observe there's no solid line between those two anyway[/footnote], 4channers could simply claim it's about everybody else, those potentially affected. After all, the most entrenched people or eg. those who are simply happy in their state, offer the worst effort/effect ratio.
 

Amaror

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Apr 15, 2011
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renegade7 said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
proportions the average American female (ie. overweight).
Ugh, why? The "average American female" is not a body type anyone should be aspiring to, statistically speaking having the body of the average American is a risk factor for early death on par with being a smoker for your entire life (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23404873 http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/). Is this supposed to be some kind of viral marketing for McDonald's, or something?

Sure, it's kind of an asshole thing to do on the part of the members of "Project Harpoon", but why give them attention by engaging with them?
I might not be thinking about the right article, but i think it was posted on a website which advocated against bulimia. It wasn't really "Hey guys and girls you should eat more fat, so you can look like this!" and more "This isn't a realistic body image and this character would normally look like this instead. So don't try to starve yourself to death in order to look like this unrealistic character.".
I have to admit it wasn't done in a particullary great way. They went a bit overboard "correcting" these various characters, exspecially for some characters like Lara Croft that have no reason why they should look like the average woman since their lifestyle is everything but average.
But the message that was meant was one i heavily aggree with and i don't think it actually was one of those "fat-acceptance" movements.
 

Paragon Fury

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Jan 23, 2009
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Since I didn't get to see the images....did Project Harpoon just do the reverse of the article in question and make fat models thin...make thin models fat? Make fat models fatter? You didn't really give enough detail in the OP.

Also, honestly, the most I remember from the article is a couple of users here desperately trying to defend and convince people that the altered women in the article were just fine even though some of them were clearly not or dangerously overweight.
 
Jan 12, 2012
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Paragon Fury said:
Since I didn't get to see the images....did Project Harpoon just do the reverse of the article in question and make fat models thin...make thin models fat? Make fat models fatter? You didn't really give enough detail in the OP.
Take pictures of fat people and make them thin; all you have to do is google 'Project Harpoon' to see them. Honestly, the most surprising thing about them was how well done most of them were; A lot of the 'adding weight' pictures end up looking cartoonish (even when they are of video game characters), but if you saw only the altered image from many of Project Harpoon's works you would guess it was a real photo.
 

Areloch

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Dec 10, 2012
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Thunderous Cacophony said:
Paragon Fury said:
Since I didn't get to see the images....did Project Harpoon just do the reverse of the article in question and make fat models thin...make thin models fat? Make fat models fatter? You didn't really give enough detail in the OP.
Take pictures of fat people and make them thin; all you have to do is google 'Project Harpoon' to see them. Honestly, the most surprising thing about them was how well done most of them were; A lot of the 'adding weight' pictures end up looking cartoonish (even when they are of video game characters), but if you saw only the altered image from many of Project Harpoon's works you would guess it was a real photo.
Hardly surprising. One of the biggest past times on any chan is shooping.

Johnisback said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
You got trolled. I was browsing /b/ when the idea for Project Harpoon was first brought up and while there were some people who saw it as a great way to express their anti-SJW, anti-feminist, anti-fat acceptance feelings. The vast majority of people just saw it as an opportunity to troll and get a rise out of people who are baited way too easily and who are way too reactionary.

Every post referencing Project Harpoon since has been along the lines of "look at [insert news organisation here], they've actually reported on our trolling, this is hilarious don't they have anything better to do."
When did people forget that the chans are largely about trolling and for the lulz when it comes to them interacting with the rest of the internet?

Occasionally, yes, there are some people that organize operations that have some actual intent behind them, but largely anything they put together is designed to get a rise out of at least one group of people.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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spartan231490 said:
If you post an image to the internet voluntarily, you have no right to cry about privacy.

As for "project harpoon" it sounds funny as fuck and I wish I'd seen it before the pages got tore down, but I'm not sure what, if anything, they actually expected to accomplish.
And if you let your name or any personal details get on the internet, you have no right to cry when people use that information to get your phone number, address, email and dox you. It's great that you think that mocking people for being fat is hilarious though.

DizzyChuggernaut said:
How did I find out about the page? A friend of mine had a photo of hers edited and posted on the page. She was absolutely humiliated, and I filed my own report against the page because of that. According to Facebook's own community standards, the page was unacceptable (because it featured altered images of private individuals).
Shit, I'm sorry about your friend. It's one thing to manipulate fictional characters, but to use real people as ammunition for your dig at a political campaign is just all kinds of scummy.

Johnisback said:
You got trolled. I was browsing /b/ when the idea for Project Harpoon was first brought up and while there were some people who saw it as a great way to express their anti-SJW, anti-feminist, anti-fat acceptance feelings. The vast majority of people just saw it as an opportunity to troll and get a rise out of people who are baited way too easily and who are way too reactionary.

Every post referencing Project Harpoon since has been along the lines of "look at [insert news organisation here], they've actually reported on our trolling, this is hilarious don't they have anything better to do."
It's not really harmless trolling anymore when you're using real people as a part of it. If the people who released the nude pictures of celebrities online did it with the intent of trolling, it doesn't make the fact that the world now knows what they look like naked go away. I'm sure it's all good fun to them, but it's a fair bit less for the people who get showcased for their little game.
 

Tsun Tzu

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I actually have to say, this is taking it too far.

If the images are public domain or of a public figure/character? By all means, shop away.

But private citizens? Nah. Not a good move.

You can get your point across with more readily justifiable targets, easily, but this is a simple matter of not being a dick and making things unnecessarily 'personal.' Which, I know, is difficult for some people online to grasp, yet it should still be mentioned from time to time if only to say that, yes, we've broached the subject.

With that said...it's 4chan. I both love and hate them for stupid stuff like this.

Makes the internet a more interesting place to be.
 

Lictor Face

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If the only thing getting hurt from this Project Harpoons are egos and feelings. I don't see the fuss.

People, adults especially, should know by now how to ignore people who say mean things to them.

If the fat people want to campaign on their rights to be obese and unhealthy, I'd say let them. If the chains want to mess around and do nothing other than piss off hotheads, I'd say let them too.

Nothing important was gained, and certainly nothing of value was lost.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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Johnisback said:
Since when has /b/ ever cared if their trolling was harmless or not?
In any case this is hardly the same as people stealing private property. It's people taking already public property and changing it.
Oh I know they don't give the slightest damn. I'm just saying that passing it off as "This is just trolling, getting riled up is what they want you to do" only works if the only damage caused is people being riled up. The comparison I was going for in the analogy wasn't that they're both stealing something private, but that they both have an effect irrespective of whether people get upset about it. Not getting upset about it doesn't make it any less humiliating for the people they targeted, and that more than anything else is what I think is the issue.

EDIT: Also, this is just my experience, but everyone I know who does racist things just to get a rise out of people is exceptionally racist in reality. The last person who liked to make those jokes went on and on for a half an hour in a Tim Hortons commenting about how the "Chinks" across the street must be running a cocaine ring, and publicly refers to any middle-eastern person as towel heads (all of this loudly "whispered" in front of middle-eastern and chinese people). The person before that was calling every asian person on the bus "Japan" including the guy who specified they were from Korea, and asking them if they were all related.

With people like that, at worst they're racist, at best they're complete assholes. Neither are particularly favorable in my opinion. I'm not saying this is racism, but its the same in the sense of "saying offensive things to get a rise out of people"
 

jklinders

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Queen Michael said:
Main problem here is, what counts as a fat activist?

First there's the clear cases. The people who insist that any medical professionals saying that fatness is unhealthy are just part of a conspiracy. The wackos.

But then there's people who just don't want to get bullied for their weight. That's the problem here--you're labeled a "fat activist" if you're fat and like your looks. Your only options are disliking your looks or being called a fat activist. You post a photo of yourself on Facebook? That means you're "promoting obesity." Ridiculous, of course.

"But being fat isn't good for you!" So? Nobody denied that. Apart from a few extremists--like you get in any movement--most fat activists wouldn't have had a problem in the first place if we focused on the health aspects. The problem is that when fat people don't bother to excercise and eat healthy--which they have no obligation to anybody to do--they get told they're ugly.

Imagine if it was like this with illiteracy. We'd constantly say that illiterate people are ugly and unattractive, and if somebody said that was bad we'd just go "Stop promoting illiteracy!"

Look, fat activists aren't saying that you should try to be fat. What they're saying is that people who are fat aren't automatically ugly. And that you shouldn't get harassed for your weight.

Once again: If people had actually kept it to health issues we wouldn't have had a problem in the first place. But it seems like 9 out of 10 comments on fat people are about them being ugly, which has nothing to do with health issues.

On-topic, I'd say this isn't an okay thing to do. Don't manipulate pictures of strangers and make them public. That's kind of obvious. And come on... "Prject Harpoon?" Whaling reference when you're talking about fat people. Tasteful, guys.
I pretty much fully and wholeheartedly agree with the above. I guarantee the chans are not doing this to promote healthy living like those trollish punks are claiming. they are simply taking pot shots at a demographic that they see as fair game. Everyone takes potshots at the overweight.

And like you said, the name of their event says it all. this is just professional trolls being professional trolls. Legal or not has nothing to do with it. It's all about intent. They have ill intent here and are therefore assholes. Therefore they should be seen as such.