The European Union, your views

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Saevus

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Jul 1, 2008
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The EU, more or less originally the EEC, was responsible (along with the Marshal Plan) for restoring Western Europe to unparalleled prosperity after the cataclysmic destruction of WWII and has gone on to create a major economy competing effectively the US and Japan.

EFTA, on the other hand, crumbled in less than 2 decades: one of the first departing member states was Britain, having discovered it was wholly counterproductive to stay out of the EEC. And even though de Gaulle vetoed Britain's application for EEC membership several times, they kept trying until he was finally replaced and Pompidou allowed Britain in.

Supranational Europe is pretty much a pipe dream, but as an economic union, the EU has been pretty damn successful, regardless of some shrill cries emanating from Britain. If anything, Britain has been the old man of Europe since continental industrialisation, a matter only worsened by the taxing ordeal of WWII and the collapse of the empire.
 

retro himself

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Nov 14, 2007
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Oopsie said:
When you would think of those small monarchies that they could actually small, relatively independent democracies, you have the USA. Take gun laws for instance. They differ from state to state.

European "unifying" legislation is already, and has already been passed, solidifying us as a single power. You may call it a purely economical pact, it is not.
Many enviromental, criminal and financial laws are already in effect, european union wide (I'm only mentioning the countries in which you can travel freely as an European, and which has the Euro as it's currency).

A European constitution was proposed to the peoples of the nations in Europa, which my country declined after a referendum. However, the sad truth of a massive ruling body soon showed itself as our own European Representatives mentioned on television they'll pass it anyway through the back door. And for the most part they already have. By changing my nations own law through it's own, leaking constitution. Europe is already a fully, constitutionalized supernation.

I won't deny we need the economic power of all nations within the EU. What I think we don't need is yet another bureaucratic institution which makes decisions on a untransparant level we never even heard of over here.
True, laws differ yes, but that's a minor difference. I still see americans as one nation, regardless of the state they live in. While in Europe, almost every country has its language, culture, history, every country thinks differently.
And when I pointed out the fact that european countries have different forms of government because it makes them much more different from each other than say, two different states in the USA.
What difference do you see between Kansas and Florida? Two states, a few different laws, but the same form of government, the same inhabitants, the same language, culture, pretty much the same way of living too. You could say their geographical position is different and one has beaches and tourism, while the other doesn't, but that doesn't change the culture and the other aforementioned stuff.
While in Europe, you have say Netherlands and say Italy. Completely diverse cultures, languages, forms of government (the dutch still have a queen, while italians still fear another dictator), etc. And all this cultural diversity makes a LOT of difference.

You might say we are solidified as a single power, but in reality, all members of the EU still function as an independent country. Each european country is much more involved in themselves than the american states.

I completely agree with you on your last point. And I don't think that's happening/will happen. The EU will never become like the USA. Mostly because USA was formed by one type of people, the americans, wanting to unify the territories. They created a nation, a country out of small populated areas. The EU, on the other hand is more like a pact between old, existing countries that basically live on their own, with their own history, culture and everything. They don't merge that, they just share their economy with each other.
We're definitely not forming a singular supernation. What are we, the USSR? It, for example, united many asian countries, many of which were different like our european now (though they were kinda similar, and the russian exploited those similarities), but they forced them to became a part of one supernation. That's for example how a supernation would look, if we completely merged into one nation, like USSR did, that's when you could say that we basically are like USA. Just one giant nation of same people. It was called a union too, but we all know our European Union is definitely not the same.
 

retro himself

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Nov 14, 2007
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Oopsie said:
Well, that is exactly what is happening. The people who didn't like it, voted 'no' on the referendum mostly because of that.
KSarty said:
Regardless, the point retro himself and I were trying to make stands. A union of European nations really isn't that similar to the US.
Apologies for the snipping. I hate text walls ;)
Why isn't it different? For example; One governing body which overrules any regional laws. If Dutch law can't help you anymore, you turn to the European court. Which has the power to overrule any law in that nations law if it's in the European law.
Of course if that isn't the way it works in USA I will happily retract my first post.
You got a point there, if it did that with laws, then it would be kinda like the USA, but I'm strongly pointing out the cultural difference and its importance. those 2000+ years of history won't go into nothing now will they? Because of them, every country has their unique voice, their unique way of leading their country. With their unique inhabitants backing them up, or opposing them. USA doesn't have that. Its states are cookie-cutter states. Basically the same one, copy-pasted over and over, with some regional differences.

And I think you're overexaggerating. You probably have one controversial event that's happening and it's all over the news, blaming the EU for making a forceable decision about another countries law. While they might be doing that, I'm pretty sure it was all in the deal when they joined the EU. But individual laws in countries still differ pretty much, and everyone still lives however the hell they want, whether it be worshiping a queen or giving away shitloads of money for an army we don't even need (Slovenia).
 

Kevvers

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Sep 14, 2008
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I am in favour of strong European ties, because its far better that European powers cooperate than go to war with each other. And I think we will need to put up a united front against Russia, because it seems likely that America become more isolationist in the future. At some point the Russian Federation will feel strong enough to try and retake what it may regard as its zones.

However, I don't think that necessarily has to extend to a single European government, that seems pretty unworkable given the huge diversity across the continent from language, culture, religious and political views. And I don't think that the benefits of a single currency outweigh the disadvantages, because I think its important that the individual European nations are able to exercise control over their own economies.
 

Arbre

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Jan 13, 2007
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Kevvers said:
I am in favour of strong European ties, because its far better that European powers cooperate than go to war with each other. And I think we will need to put up a united front against Russia, because it seems likely that America become more isolationist in the future. At some point the Russian Federation will feel strong enough to try and retake what it may regard as its zones.
You think the guys at the head of Russia, today, still long for the good ol' Soviet Union?
 

Kevvers

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Sep 14, 2008
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Arbre said:
Kevvers said:
I am in favour of strong European ties, because its far better that European powers cooperate than go to war with each other. And I think we will need to put up a united front against Russia, because it seems likely that America become more isolationist in the future. At some point the Russian Federation will feel strong enough to try and retake what it may regard as its zones.
You think the guys at the head of Russia, today, still long for the good ol' Soviet Union?
I don't think they want to return to communism, but I do think they want a return to a union of soviets, that is to say a huge slavic federation of states. Basically as power hungry and territorial as before but nationalistic rather than socialistic.
 

razer17

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Feb 3, 2009
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im sure this has been mentioned. but britain would nto be better off without the EU. near enough all your food will skyrocket, because the price of import will cost more, less free trade.
do you ever go on holiday in europe? it would be harder to go abroad. ok I concede that it's not much harder but still.
but seriously the cost of a lot of things will go up, due to the EU's trade laws. yeah they are a bit OTT on human rights laws but still. economically britain would be screwed if they left the EU
 

OtherAlex

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Feb 21, 2009
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I disagree with the policies of my nation (great britain) being decided by beaurocrats in Brussels. As I always say, we are european because Brussels says so.
 

Trivun

Stabat mater dolorosa
Dec 13, 2008
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Right, do not get me started on the EU. Fine, it started out with decent views (free trade between member countries, nothing more). Then they set up a European Parliament, and decided to integrate everything to the point that now the EU is simply looking to become a European single country, like the USA. The worst thing that the UK ever did was join the EU, for the following reasons:

1. Immigration. Since the EU decided to open borders between member countries for those with an EU member country passport, the UK has been flooded with immigrants from East Europe, here to work. I wouldn't mind except that they take the jobs that should be going to UK Nationals, the govenment pays for everything for them, and most of the money they make gets sent to their home countries anyway, so it does nothing for the UK economy.

2. The economy. Anyone heard of Black Wednesday, back in 1992? That was when we were closest to joining the single currency. It took the UK economy at least 2/3 years to recover (a long time in economics).

3. Farming. The EU CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) basically uses money from member states to subsidise farmers in the EU. Guess who pays the most? Britain. Guess who gets the least? Again, Britain. Guess who pays little and gets the most? The French.

4. Human Rights. The UK justice system is a mess because lags get freebies and rewards in prison due to the Human Rights Act. From the EU. Victims get little or no support while the European Court of Human Rights almost always rules in favour of the criminal.
 

Agayek

Ravenous Gormandizer
Oct 23, 2008
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The EU is supporting the development of SkyNet. Obviously, this means they are evil and must be stopped.
 

Lord George

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Aug 25, 2008
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The E.U. can piss off, I think in the UK we should definitely break away, then we wouldn't have to obey so many stupid E.U laws and regulations as its not like they're able to enforce them in the first place so we'll be able to actually get things done right in this country.

Or we take over the E.U and the rest of Europe and then form it into a new British empire which we use as a power base to take over the world mahahaah. Both are good in my book.
 

y8c616

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May 14, 2008
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The EU is good in theory, as the whole "United we stand divided we fall" thing is true until you consider the billions of pounds the UK has put into the EU fund, for relatively little gain
 

sin keon

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Apr 12, 2009
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I think the EU is a good thing, it got us back on track after WW2. And I also like that almost every country uses the euro. I also think it's a good thing we don't have a president. want to know why? simply because I don't think nations should be ruled by one person, power changes people and they will try to expend it and therefore wage war on other countries(if the wrong person is president).