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Paradoxrifts

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Note: Written partly in response to this article [http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/24/booth-babes-need-not-apply/?hpt=hp_c3], but also as a response by one male anarchist individualist to the encroachment of feminism on Geek Culture in general.


I've seen more than one cougar come down from the mountains and make off with a sexually-inexperienced young geek in my time. And this is going back years, and years, before the very definition of the cougar entered popular consciousness. The sexual predation of the sexually inexperienced by the sexually experienced is certainly nothing new, but I've been around long enough to see it go from an isolated occurrence to something of a reoccurring trend in Geek circles.

Geek space both as public space and as a intellectual concept, has traditionally been a sanctuary of sorts for damaged and vulnerable men to seek social interaction without the constant reminder of their own all too human frailties. The maladies are many and varied, and certainly every awkward Geek that I've ever met has had his own story to share. The all too common consequence of having these assorted problems was sexual inexperience. Our parent culture readily defines a real man as a man who has ready and easy access to sex with a woman. Our decadent western lifestyles mean that sex alone has been left as the last rite of passage into adulthood. A cultural expectation that feminists readily exploit to bludgeon uncooperative Geeks with labels such as man-child (undeveloped virgin), misogynist (resentful virgin), basement dweller (unsuccessful virgin) or neck-beard (let yourself go virgin). It's the same reason why they're occasionally known to paint the Call Of Duty experience as innately homoerotic one for it's exclusion of the feminine. They miss the point altogether that men might just want to gather together with other men, even if it is just virtually, pursue an activity and get away from the presence of sexuality altogether. For a feminist to accept such a notion is tantamount to open heresy.

Not that I'm going to stand here and insinuate that Feminism is alone in wielding that particular cudgel, but wherein the traditional morale guardians have relented it seems that a new radical morale guardian has picked up the slack. Trying to browbeat a demographic that has been renown for having an individualistic and anarchistic streak a mile wide.

But nothing lasts forever, not even Geek space or at least not how it once was.

The ever shrinking availability of wider male spaces in the western world has driven men who seek the platonic companionship of other men into a tighter and smaller space. This has caused a consolidation of sorts, as men who a generation ago might never have entertained the notion of entering public places and subcultures that would have otherwise been beneath them have invaded Geek space so quickly that nobody really knew what was up till after it had happened. But I was there, so I saw it unfold. We let them in through the front gate, hailed an influx of "6 of 9" alpha males into the fold as conquering heroes and long lost friends. These men eventually brought their girlfriends, and these girlfriends brought their female friends and it was through this avenue that our space was colonised by women to the point that even Feminism is now starting to take an active interest in what our subculture does with itself. I'm sure that more than one Generation X Geek has been the victim of, or at least seen someone else been ostracized and cast out of their local community of social outcasts by an "6 of 9" of either gender who realised just how much power they could wield in such an environment.

Geek identity was once an identity of exclusion, a band of outcasts but also a band of brothers, but in an example of delicious irony as the world rushed in, I think we've lost something in the flow. The exclusion that helped define us was swept away, and now for the first time in our history the shape of our identity is largely in our own hands. Going forward who we choose to include and exclude is going to shape what it means to be Geek.

But I reject the notion that to be Geek now is to denote ownership of the legacy of art that Geek culture has produced, a legacy that has been actively strip-mined, commercialised and sold off to the highest bidder.

At this point except for a last few scattered and desperate individuals that can occasionally be sighted eking out an existence at edge of a cultural space which they once dominated, Geek space is in no part unique. What made it unique in the first place is long past gone. It is just yet another generic, overly commercialised cultural space like any other. But there still exists a lingering cultural memory that once boys who didn't fit in anywhere else could gather together, share their experiences together and create a shared art together, and through that art they would escape their suffering.

Because no other avenue was open for them, using only the power of their own imaginations they would take our reality and fold it upon itself. Substitute it for their own.

They were the very first escapists, and I am no longer ashamed to say that they were my brothers. But I am deeply shamed by the realisation of how I have treated them over the years.

Shine on you crazy diamonds, shine on. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLKiMbC6s2k] You know who you are.
 

ResonanceSD

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I was a geek before it was mainstream.

yes we lost our one little refuge away from the heaving masses of, well, the masses.


yes now every person with an iPhone "is like, totally, a gamer"

yeees, now stuff like "Big Bang Theory" takes "our" jokes and makes them mainstream.

But at the end of the day, when all you rave is acceptance, like some people on this forum, surely people embracing your culture and making it their own can only be a good thing?
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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I'm going to sound less like a geek and more like a metalhead[footnote]Though lets be honest: who here has ever known a metalhead who /wasn't/ a geek deep down? I certainly haven't.[/footnote] here for a minute, but: the real geek culture is still there. It's just underground. Not on internet forums, but in comic stores, tabletop gameshops, and peoples' basements, where it's always been and where it has always belonged. If you do run into it on the internet, it's going to be on social networking sites, in groups and among friends, who carry their real life friendships and hobbies into the virtual world. Forums have never really been a part of it. Usenet was, but internet forums were different, more inclusive and more generalized from the start[footnote]Edit: On reflection, I'm not sure I'd say that forums were more generalized and inclusive from the start. In fact, if anything they were more exclusive. However, there is a difference. It's hard to describe it directly, but suffice it to say that internet culture is a separate thing from geek culture. Internet culture has connections to geek culture, being primarily made up of members of the geek culture, but like my example of most metalheads also being geeks above, that doesn't make the two cultures any less different or separate.[/footnote]. The truly traditional geek culture is not to be found on a modern forum. If you want to see it preserved in a place where anyone can find it, look up some old usenet posts on Google Groups, preferably from the 90's or earlier, although usenet was still usenet even in the early 2000's.

Also, there really was no need to tie this to the gender wars. Girls may have been rare as hens teeth in the old days, but it was never a boys only club. Or maybe it was in the 50's, but by the 70's? Not so much. When do you think slash fiction was invented, and by whom? And it certainly wasn't a boys only club by the 80's and 90's, when most of the people here were growing up.
 

Acier

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I'm sorry but can you clarify, because it comes off as "I wish gaming culture was still esoteric and special and sparkly. I don't want people who I don't like to enjoy the same things I do."

And I find it sort of insulting you claim "geek space" is only something for damaged men to enjoy.

I don't know, you'll have to spell this out for me, because I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but the way your post is worded is giving me a hard time not thinking you're a bit childish.
 

sextus the crazy

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I love meeting people who have the same interests that I do, so I don't understand why I wouldn't want more mainstreaming.
 

Paradoxrifts

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ResonanceSD said:
But at the end of the day, when all you rave is acceptance, like some people on this forum, surely people embracing your culture and making it their own can only be a good thing?
I don't know the answer to that question. No, seriously, not a clue. How much of a ship needs to be replaced before it is no longer the same ship? [http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus]

EClaris said:
I'm sorry but can you clarify, because it comes off as "I wish gaming culture was still esoteric and special and sparkly. I don't want people who I don't like to enjoy the same things I do."

And I find it sort of insulting you claim "geek space" is only something for damaged men to enjoy.

I don't know, you'll have to spell this out for me, because I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but the way your post is worded is giving me a hard time not thinking you're a bit childish.
I have absolutely nothing against people enjoying the same things as I do. With the benefit of hindsight, I would've preferred that their enjoyment had not come at the increased marginalisation of the native population. I would also like to have my cake and eat it too, if you are in the business of working miracles. And the mere recognition that Geek subculture was founded on the shared social identity of male outsiders does not necessarily equal a claim that it should then only ever be enjoyed by said demographic. Nor does it belittle the contributions to the culture made by female voices.

I recognise the past. I see what has been lost and I am moved by it.

Some days I still miss my freaks and misfits. Other days movies like The Avengers come out and on those days I tell myself that a decent omelette doesn't get made without breaking a few eggs. Then I go drive another nail into the coffin with my price of admission.

Owyn_Merrilin said:
Also, there really was no need to tie this to the gender wars.
Understanding why things happen the way they do is important. If everyone can be a Geek in this day and age then nobody is really a Geek by extension, but with such a vague and nebulous definition it just never ceases to amaze me where some people choose to draw the line.

You see I happen to know of a very simple, effective but humane solution to the problem, which we will assume to exist, that some people might be out in Geek space dorking up the place with all their non-Geek vibes.

It involves talking. No, not interrogation. You speak, they speak and you just keep going taking turns talking about whatever the hell the particular convention that you're attending is about. No, don't go trying to pick them up either, whether you find them sexually attractive or not. Sexual harassment is simply a less effective method than mine.

Don't overdo it either, you've got to trust your fellow Geek to pick up the slack because if they pick up the same dorky non-Geek vibes you do then they should try talking to them too.

Everyone has to keep talking!

The same rules apply, just remember to be respectful at all times, and there won't be a problem anymore so long as the wider community keeps this up till the offending presence are either.. a) thoroughly indoctrinated, b) flee in stomach cramping terror or c) have their brains shut down die. There is also the outside possibility that your non-Geek radar might be screwed up, and you might just end up having a conversation with another Geek, but isn't that what everyone should be there for in the first place?
 

J. Mazarin

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Jun 25, 2012
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Paradoxrifts said:
They miss the point altogether that men might just want to gather together with other men, even if it is just virtually, pursue an activity and get away from the presence of sexuality altogether. For a feminist to accept such a notion is tantamount to open heresy.
Note: not necessarily speaking to you in particular.

You know, if the mere presence of women makes you so insecure about your sexuality that your immediate reaction is to run away from/exclude/turn into a hate-fueled misogynist on them, you probably don't deserve anything "sacred" and should probably just work on the issues you clearly have.

OT: Short answer? Shit happens, I suppose. In 1999, if you mentioned orcs you'd get puzzled looks or laughter. Five years later, after the LOTR trilogy, you're suddenly a moron if you don't know what orcs are.

The commercial success of geek/video game culture has shown for a long time that the "mainstreaming" process was going to occur sooner rather than later. People can move with the times, or be left behind.
 

Blunderboy

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Apr 26, 2011
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So the social group typically made up of those who are cast out from the rest has it's own elitist pricks too?
Man that just seems stupid.

I mean I get the annoyance at people who claim to be a geek and a nerd when they aren't, but just relax. They're not hurting anyone and really, I kind of like that people who would've given me shit for gaming or being into comics at school are now playing xbox and really enjoying the Avengers.
Grow up man.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Paradoxrifts said:
I grew up very much a social outcast. I was told frequently by my female peers growing up that we simply didn't have enough in common. I didn't like the things they liked--they wanted to squeal about boy bands and celebrity news, and all I wanted to do was play Kingdom Hearts and watch Pokemon. While we didn't really have much in common, it still hurt me in a way. The reason they didn't like me was simply because I wasn't like them. I couldn't help it, either. It's just how I was.

A few times, I tried to get their attention. I looked into the things they liked, I tried to talk about the same things and act like we have things in common. Even tried to wear clothes like theirs a few times (it shocked my mom beyond words when I told her at the store I wanted a pink shirt and shoes to match). But it never worked out, and in the end they only ended up resenting me more. I don't think I can even tell you why I wanted their attention in the first place. I guess it was simply because they were the majority--there were a lot more of those like them them than there were of those like me, and I wanted a piece of that community as well. But over time I grew up, and became satisfied with my circle of friends and accepted that there are simply some people in the world who need some group they perceive as inferior to put themselves above.

From what I've been able to gather, the "geek culture" originated from us social outcasts, with a shared history of walls being put up by others to keep us out of their groups. And that is why I find it so fascinating that even though so many of us have such vivid memories of being disenfranchised for our eclectic interests, many are beginning to use those memories as a way to put up their own walls against those who are different from them. We are a "culture" of victims, but now that we've grown up and society is beginning to accept our quirks, we are the ones who are hesitant to let in those who have different interests and intentions. We are the ones putting up the walls. We are the ones who are telling them they don't belong. We are the ones telling them they aren't qualified. We are the ones who are putting ourselves above those who we perceive as inferior.

Why are we doing this? Why is being mainstream a bad thing? Isn't it what we dreamed of as children? To be able to publicly display our interests and quirks proudly without the fear of being vilified, and have others try to emulate us and try to blend in with us for a change? If we are group made up of outcasts, what right have we to cast others out ourselves?

I feel if your attitude toward the "mainstreaming" of the geek culture is so hurtful to your established image of it, perhaps you were not an outcast because others refused to accept how different you were. Perhaps you were an outcast because you refused to accept what they were. If what you miss is your "band of freaks and misfits," then it seems to me you were much more invested in your exile than most geeks I've encountered. Last I checked, if you're the one excluding yourself from others you can hardly call yourself an outcast, as being an outcast first requires you to have been cast out from somewhere. I also liked my band of eclectic friends, but I don't believe I ever reveled in the thought of others actively avoiding my presence. Again, there was a point when I accepted there was nothing I could do to make them accept me, but to actively enjoy and even seek that exclusion? Never. And if such self-gratifying exclusion is your definition of being a geek, then I do not want the title, and I'm glad it's changing.
 
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I am lucky that my second high school (had to transfer over my sophomore year due to school zone issues) was full of nerds, and that my sister and then boyfriend (now my brother-in-law) are also huge nerds.

As you can tell by my join date, I've been around the Escapist for a while. And I am personally glad to see more and more gamers step out into the light, people proud to play video games, proud to be nerds. Gaming, to me, isn't something that should be a guilty habit, locked away in a room. It should be something for friends to enjoy together, or a way to meet new people, something that won't happen if everyone treats games as a "dirty little secret".
 

NegaWiki

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I don't get it. Gaming becoming mainstream is bad? I was the only girl in my class who played Oblivion but when Skyrim came out suddenly I had other females to talk to. It doesn't matter what type of games you play, the fact that people want to be called something that was once synonymous with virgin is a good thing. Not to mention new genres of games being explored in order to captivate the new growing audience.
 

ResonanceSD

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Paradoxrifts said:
ResonanceSD said:
But at the end of the day, when all you rave is acceptance, like some people on this forum, surely people embracing your culture and making it their own can only be a good thing?
I don't know the answer to that question. No, seriously, not a clue. How much of a ship needs to be replaced before it is no longer the same ship?
And here's a response comprised partially of things other people have said.

The below quote is the entire response that you've been getting in this thread, condensed.So thank you, @Lilani, for putting what I was thinking down on paper.

Lilani said:
Paradoxrifts said:
I feel if your attitude toward the "mainstreaming" of the geek culture is so hurtful to your established image of it, perhaps you were not an outcast because others refused to accept how different you were.
And this, but with less of an aggressive tone.

Blunderboy said:
I mean I get the annoyance at people who claim to be a geek and a nerd when they aren't, but just relax. They're not hurting anyone and really, I kind of like that people who would've givne me shit fro gaming or being into comics at school are now playing xbox and really enjoying the Avengers.
Grow up man.




OP: Dude it's part of people accepting things that previously they didn't like. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being mainstream. Unless you happen to be Peter Molyneux.
 

Kpt._Rob

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Apr 22, 2009
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... I'm not really sure where to start with an address to the idea that we nerds ought to be more exclusionary. First off, I kind of wish there were more people into my hobbies, I drop enough money on comics each month that I could probably trade my collection in for a small island nation, but I never run into anyone else who actually reads the damn things... most people just watch the movies and think they know all what Green Lantern is about. They can talk about how awesome Heath Ledger was, but most of them don't even realize that he's only the second best Joker around. The result being that even amongst my nerd friends, I never have anyone with whom to discuss the reasons why Aquaman is actually a badass (and he is).

Secondly, while it's true that many people who are nerds have felt excluded from society as a whole, I don't know that that's really why we're here, nor that it's how we ought to define ourselves. I remember in my school days there having been lots of groups who weren't invited to sit at the popular kids table, and I didn't choose to sit with the nerds because I felt I was excluded from the other groups (actually, most of the popular kids were pretty kind at my school, so even without the invite I'd probably not have been chased away from their table had I chosen to sit there), I choose to sit with the nerds because we could all wax romantic over the prospects of a new elder scrolls game, and share a laugh about quadruple t-bagging a homophobe on Halo the other night.

Finally, the argument that the addition of women to "nerd space" has been a serious detriment really deserves some address. For starters, you do realize that women have every bit as many rights to feel like they've been excluded as you or I do, do you not? Secondly, what is with this idea that you can only have platonic relationships with other men? You do realize that it's possible to befriend someone regardless of their genitalia, and that just because their shirts are cut differently doesn't mean you have to want to jump into bed with them, right? The notion that we should exclude women from enjoying our hobbies just because you can't stop staring at their boobs says a lot more about why I wouldn't want you in my group than it does why I wouldn't want them in my group.

As Bob Dylan once put it, the times, they are a' changin, and that much is true. But here's the thing, is that the times have always been a' changin, and no amount of complaining or romanticizing the past is going to undo that. You'll find that you get further in life if you learn to change with the times. If you refuse to accept anything different at all you'll eventually be the old man locked away in a hut in the middle of the forest because he's afraid a landline might have become sentient and taken over society, all the while completely oblivious to the fact that it'll actually be the cell phones that'll foment technological revolt and enslave humanity.
 

Kinguendo

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ResonanceSD said:
I was a geek before it was mainstream.

yes we lost our one little refuge away from the heaving masses of, well, the masses.


yes now every person with an iPhone "is like, totally, a gamer"

yeees, now stuff like "Big Bang Theory" takes "our" jokes and makes them mainstream.

But at the end of the day, when all you rave is acceptance, like some people on this forum, surely people embracing your culture and making it their own can only be a good thing?
I hate Big Bang Theory... it jokes at the expense of Nerds, made by fake nerds who are being paid to express said views. Its "nerd" culture, simplified and made fun of for the masses because being a "nerd" is cool now. If being a nerd is so cool, let them have the bullying and the beatings and the social awkwardness... let them have it all and watch them burn.

Captcha: Same Same

Thanks for the moral support Captcha.
 

ResonanceSD

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Kinguendo said:
I hate Big Bang Theory... it jokes at the expense of Nerds, made by fake nerds who are being paid to express said views. If being a nerd is so cool, let them have the bullying and the beatings and the social awkwardness... let them have it all and watch them burn.

The Escapist. We do Grandiose Better Than THE ENTIRE INTERNET.

No but seriously, what you're missing here is that BBT makes the bullying and beatings (beatings? seriously?) less likely given that the entire bloody world knows why the things you like are cool.
 

Kinguendo

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ResonanceSD said:
Kinguendo said:
I hate Big Bang Theory... it jokes at the expense of Nerds, made by fake nerds who are being paid to express said views. If being a nerd is so cool, let them have the bullying and the beatings and the social awkwardness... let them have it all and watch them burn.

The Escapist. We do Grandiose Better Than THE ENTIRE INTERNET.

No but seriously, what you're missing here is that BBT makes the bullying and beatings (beatings? seriously?) less likely given that the entire bloody world knows why the things you like are cool.
No they dont, because those are the most joke-worthy stereotypes of nerds. Not to mention the jokes are the most simplistic, formulaic trash!

And as they are making a mockery of the things I like, I doubt they understand why I like said things.
 

ResonanceSD

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Lilani said:
Paradoxrifts said:
All I wanted to do was play Kingdom Hearts and watch Pokemon.


[sub][sub][sub]marry me?[/sub][/sub][/sub]

No but seriously, when I was growing up, I'd have loved to meet other people like that ^_^

And now with the internet, it's not difficult.


Again, OP, because it's mainstream means that kids in the future (assuming we're not all wiped out by space octopodes) won't have to deal with the same kind of stuff we did growing up. And I call that a 100% win.


"How was school?"


"Well, I DIDN'T get beaten up by some jock because I was wearing a batman-themed T-shirt"
 

easternflame

Cosmic Rays of Undeadly Fire
Nov 2, 2010
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Lilani said:
Paradoxrifts said:
I grew up very much a social outcast. I was told frequently by my female peers growing up that we simply didn't have enough in common. I didn't like the things they liked--they wanted to squeal about boy bands and celebrity news, and all I wanted to do was play Kingdom Hearts and watch Pokemon. While we didn't really have much in common, it still hurt me in a way. The reason they didn't like me was simply because I wasn't like them. I couldn't help it, either. It's just how I was.

A few times, I tried to get their attention. I looked into the things they liked, I tried to talk about the same things and act like we have things in common. Even tried to wear clothes like theirs a few times (it shocked my mom beyond words when I told her at the store I wanted a pink shirt and shoes to match). But it never worked out, and in the end they only ended up resenting me more. I don't think I can even tell you why I wanted their attention in the first place. I guess it was simply because they were the majority--there were a lot more of those like them them than there were of those like me, and I wanted a piece of that community as well. But over time I grew up, and became satisfied with my circle of friends and accepted that there are simply some people in the world who need some group they perceive as inferior to put themselves above.

From what I've been able to gather, the "geek culture" originated from us social outcasts, with a shared history of walls being put up by others to keep us out of their groups. And that is why I find it so fascinating that even though so many of us have such vivid memories of being disenfranchised for our eclectic interests, many are beginning to use those memories as a way to put up their own walls against those who are different from them. We are a "culture" of victims, but now that we've grown up and society is beginning to accept our quirks, we are the ones who are hesitant to let in those who have different interests and intentions. We are the ones putting up the walls. We are the ones who are telling them they don't belong. We are the ones telling them they aren't qualified. We are the ones who are putting ourselves above those who we perceive as inferior.

Why are we doing this? Why is being mainstream a bad thing? Isn't it what we dreamed of as children? To be able to publicly display our interests and quirks proudly without the fear of being vilified, and have others try to emulate us and try to blend in with us for a change? If we are group made up of outcasts, what right have we to cast others out ourselves?

I feel if your attitude toward the "mainstreaming" of the geek culture is so hurtful to your established image of it, perhaps you were not an outcast because others refused to accept how different you were. Perhaps you were an outcast because you refused to accept what they were. If what you miss is your "band of freaks and misfits," then it seems to me you were much more invested in your exile than most geeks I've encountered. Last I checked, if you're the one excluding yourself from others you can hardly call yourself an outcast, as being an outcast first requires you to have been cast out from somewhere. I also liked my band of eclectic friends, but I don't believe I ever reveled in the thought of others actively avoiding my presence. Again, there was a point when I accepted there was nothing I could do to make them accept me, but to actively enjoy and even seek that exclusion? Never. And if such self-gratifying exclusion is your definition of being a geek, then I do not want the title, and I'm glad it's changing.
You have no idea how much I identify with this story, only difference is, I'm a dude.
Anyway, yes, I agree with what you said, but one thing to understand is, for some, being weird or different was what made them feel unique, without knowing that intolerance of what is mainstream is the other side of the rope, and that other extreme of the rope, is just as wrong. They don't want mainstream culture to merge with geeks because of a very simple truth, they are afraid, they were afraid before, so they turned to geekdom to escape, if the mainstream culture catches up, they can't feel safe anymore.
I feel for you, I don't support you, but I understand your concern and why you have created a mechanism to block this out, worry not, mainstream culture normally passes by, and if they don't, well, why give a fuck about others?