The Future of the United States of America

[Rolling Thunder]

1. The example of Russian demand-driven inflation occured during a time of economic boom (for the rest of the world), not a recession. I was speaking of a situation whereby it was the demands of the Russian people which created inflation. Nowhere did I mention recession.

Oh god Dele, will you cut the bullshit rhetoric. I've been through private healthcare, and it's just as inefficent and malign as public healthcare, and costs a hell of a lot more. So you couldn't get to see a shrink? Wow! I don't care! A shrink was hardly neccesary, if you could get better on your own. You would most likely have spent a fortune on money, only to not improve in the slightest! And as for your comments on the healthcare system- old people die. Giving organs to an elderly man simply because he can pay £15,000 or however much to him is an absurd and amoral thing to do. If he didn't have the money to buy them, he would die anyway! If he does have the money, why not go out of the country and buy them! Good god man, half you're points about 'socialised' healthcare are utterly invalid, as you'll get them in private healthcare.


And you're cycle- it fails to note that the boom-bust cycle long predates centralised banking control. Oh, wait, dosen't that- yes, it does. The existence of the 1865-1880 Long Depression disproves that argument!

And my claim is not wrong. You'll note that I stated 'tradeable securities'. Securities that can be traded between financial institutions freely, in essence forming a form of closed-currency in that while it will not reach the consumers and result in the money-supply inflation, it will also not limit the purchasing power of the institues.

 

[Dele]

1. The example of Russian demand-driven inflation occured during a time of economic boom (for the rest of the world), not a recession. I was speaking of a situation whereby it was the demands of the Russian people which created inflation. Nowhere did I mention inflation.

Oh god Dele, will you cut the bullshit rhetoric. I've been through private healthcare, and it's just as inefficent and malign as public healthcare, and costs a hell of a lot more. So you couldn't get to see a shrink? Wow! I don't care! A shrink was hardly neccesary, if you could get better on your own. You would most likely have spent a fortune on money, only to not improve in the slightest! And as for your comments on the healthcare system- old people die. Giving organs to an elderly man simply because he can pay £15,000 or however much to him is an absurd and amoral thing to do. If he didn't have the money to buy them, he would die anyway! If he does have the money, why not go out of the country and buy them! Good god man, half you're points about 'socialised' healthcare are utterly invalid, as you'll get them in private healthcare.


And you're cycle- it fails to note that the boom-bust cycle long predates centralised banking control. Oh, wait, dosen't that- yes, it does. The existence of the 1865-1880 Long Depression disproves that argument!

And my claim is not wrong. You'll note that I stated 'tradeable securities'. Securities that can be traded between financial institutions freely, in essence forming a form of closed-currency in that while it will not reach the consumers and result in the money-supply inflation, it will also not limit the purchasing power of the institues.

Maybe you should read your former posts before making any statements as your sentences are clearly contradictory to your earlier posts.
"I was speaking of a situation whereby it was the demands of the Russian people which created inflation. Nowhere did I mention inflation."
Even though I have no idea what you just said, you clearly said the word inflation back there. Then again Keynesians have a problem distinguishing between 'inflation' and The Inflation.

"You'll note that I stated 'tradeable securities'"
What you really said: "tradeable government bonds"
Bonds are essentially a government IOY -note. Bonds that I or you buy have nothing to do with what you described since bonds (unless bought by Fed or banks) have nothing to do with creation of money.

I hope you noticed how I stated "modified Austrian business cycle". I said modified because I dont blindly believe in everything they have stated unlike some person quoting his idol every now and then. While during long depression (you got the years wrong) there was no central bank, the fault is still essentially the same, bad monetary policies. I personally think Austrian business cycle doesn't give enough credit to government interventionism in creating and deepening the crises.

I admit that you got me curious with your speech about healthcare systems. Can you show in any way that "free"(a lot more taxes) system that doesn't work when you need it is more expensive than a system that works but costs more (a lot less taxes). Also I am suprised to hear that shrinks are hardly necessary for people planning suicides. Maybe doctors are unnecessary for patients as they might get better on their own too. Yeah I definitely see the logic there. Let's just let everybody die due bad healthcare because "they might get an unfair advantage for having money".

 

[Rolling Thunder]

1. Damn. The lack of caffine has made me incoherent and tetchy. I meant recession, and have edited my post above to correct that fact. My point was, however, that the inflation created in russia, that is to say, the systemic rise in prices, was not causes by an expansionary fiscal policy but by a consistent inability for demand to keep up with supply. According to classical theory, this should not have occured, as the resulting price rise would have created an increase in supply. But it did not.

2.

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/health_costs.html

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm


It's kind of common knowledge amongst healthcare professionals, that when you get too many people trying to make a profit off an activity not designed to profit-make then it places too much strain on it.

Most of the problems of state-run healthcare are meddling politicians, much as the problems of private healthcare are meddling business owners. If people would let the doctors and nurses get on with their jobs, then it would be much better.

 

[Dele]

Yeah it's possible in the short run when there is low inflation though you must also remember to take off all the non-demand factors off the equation. Still, in a situation where there is high inflation, demand and supply are not a large factors when determining prices which is why your price control fails.

I dont particularly understand what you mean by "activity not designed to profit-make". Surely you cant claim that these have always been a part of non-profit institutions.
Frankly I dont know what to say about those links you pasted. Official sources showed increased costs as large as 100% and there is no comparison about wage differences and such so I cant really comment. If you ask nurses and doctors whenever they want to work in private or in public healthcare, the answer is always the same. Private because public exploits them with 14h shifts, less wage and worse equipment.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

My links prove that instituionalised, state-run healthcare is considerably more efficent than privately-run healthcare, so I'm pretty sure that demonstrates that the economies of scale for nationalised public healthcare are considerably greater than for split-up public healthcare.

Interestingly, private healthcare in Britain pays nurses less than it does in the NHS. Yes, working conditions in the NHS are less pleasant, but quite frankly all the money that firms like BUPA make is not going to be going on their nursing staff, or their doctors, and that problem is only going to get worse if public healthcare were abandoned, for as Smith points out there is always a tacit co-ordination between employers to keep the wages of labour as low as possible.

 

[Horticulture]

Youre right, income equality is irrevelant. Real wages will rise as technology and increased capita will make the work more productive. If your productivity stays the same (unlikely), your real wage stays the same. That is essentially what we like to call justice. Education is only valuable in human capital formation. Encouraging freedom in education as opposed to centrally planned forced education improves effiency greatly, while not stopping anyone from studying "unvaluable" subjects if he chooses to.

Aggregate wages will rise in lock-step with productivity, as will, presuming constant levels of employment, average wages. However, median wages have no such guarantees, and those are much more relevant to the quality of life of a given population. If George Soros, for instance, were to develop a taste for the countryside and move into an economically depressed rural neighborhood with five other families, it'd rank somewhere above the Hamptons in terms average income by residents. Certainly, that'd be one rich neighborhood (hell, the whole state would probably 'get richer'). Median income, though would stay nearly the same. If you still don?t see this as a problem, it?s representative of a fundamental disagreement in outlook.

I don?t think it?s possible to have either a healthy democracy or market freedom, in practical terms (regardless of de jure freedoms). Education is only valuable to human capital formation only if an educated person is valuable only as human capital. I like to think that our capacity to have, and presumably enjoy, this discussion is proof that education has certain externalities. I do, however, agree with the principle of freedom in education. I?m quite ambivalent about how it?s best expressed, because there are some skills that are either essential to functioning in contemporary society (literacy etc.) or efficient for employers to assume their would-be workers possess. Furthermore, a society postulated on democracy cannot function if it?s not composed of people who understand how their government and economy function at a basic level.

My model is modified Austrian Business Cycle [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Business_Cycle_Theory]. It is a huge problem that Fed doesnt adjust it's discounting rate with demand and also the temptation by politicians to finance their screwed up budgets with printing money will cause problems. Not to mention if Keynesians (and other socialists) get their hands on such institutions.

Oh, no. That theory just doesn?t make any sense, even taking account with the Austrian School?s weird obsession with not believing in empirical evidence?

So the theory goes: low interest rates lead to high demand for credit, which in turn leads to more credit being extended and money being released from the reserve system to the banks. Eventually, this credit creation/money supply increase cannot be sustained at which point firms, suddenly unable to get credit, stop investing. The decrease in investments leads to depression in value of investment assets, leading to a desire to liquidate investments.

The theory now falls apart. Decreased demand for investment leads to-surprise, surprise-increased demand for the means of exchange one receives from selling those investments: cash. In the absence of further credit, this means that demand for cash now exceeds supply. Regardless of the source of the original distortion, it was, as the theory claims, a speculative investment bubble. In the goods economy, a purchase equals a sale, and a PS3 that rolls off the line is always worth 1 PS3, regardless of financial hijinks or inflation. The productive capacity, idle workers, and excess stores stem from the cash deficit in the economy, making consumers want to hold cash and artificially depressing demand.

Denying a monetary policy solution to this impasse condemns everyone in the economy to suffer for the sins of investors, at least until the market gets around to sorting its shit out.
Do you advocate the use of a gold standard?

While we?re on the subject of Austrian School economics, the obsession with 'real pricing' implies an argument for government intervention in certain cases, namely anything which produces an externality (environmental protection, education, healthcare, public works?)

 

[ssgt splatter]

Personally...i think it could go either way but i usually don't give a S*** since the country is being run by C students.

[edit] oh and please don't write me back on this, its just my opinion

 

[Splyth]

Well in my opinion we did this to ourselves. We all had to go get our plasma tv's, big SUV's, and a mortgage on some cookie cutter street so we could keep up with the Jone's. In all honesty we can't really blame the banks. American's that took these loans just didn't read the fine print. I always go by the rule "if it sounds to good to be true...it probably is." Also extending your credit beyond your means without some sort of safety net is something our parents and grandparents didn't do (those of us with parents over or around 65). Heck, they usually paid for houses, cars, and everything else with cash! Yes I realize we live in a differant style world now...but it these changes that have changed us. Personally I think we just all need to learn how to spend, budget, and save more wisely in the future. Also, we need to junk the "I want it now" attitude and just accept that sometimes we have to wait for what we want. The upcoming generations are going to be much more well versed on these subjects. What I would like to see is a new relearning in school, and at home about budgeting. Parents should let kids learn about paying bills, paying off debt in a timely manner, and being financially responsible.

You can't manage some of your money all the time- You must manage ALL of your money All of the time. Ok, thats my little rant

hear hear

 

[jthm]

I know you obama supporters will flame me, but I dont care. I'm sick of seeing my country torn down around me.

Nothing Obama or his administration does will help us, he is a failure, an empty suit, a commie in disguise, he wants to ruin our country, give ALL the power to the government. He wants the country to be dependant on the government, that is not how America works. We are not in a depression but under his reign we will enter a depression before his term is up. The more he spends, the more we sink. You think Bush's spending was bad? HA! In just 1 month in office he has increased the deficit 5 times more than Bush ever spent in his 8 years and 2 wars. You have seen NOTHING yet. Next thing Obama is targeting is oil prices, and how he can drive them up, because thats really what we need, $4+ at the pump again. Have you forgotten the reason why the economy is the way it is now? Lets go back to 2006 when the democrats gained the majority, leading us into this economic crisis.

Mr Obama, you have failed as a president only 1 month into your term. You are hearby the WORST president of all time. As Rush Limbaugh said, "I hope Obama fails" because I do not want what Obama wants for the country to work.

I'm sorry if you people fail to see that. Hate me all you want. I've spoken and nothing you can say will make me change my view.

Yes, this is definitely change I can believe in.

Aw, conservative teenagers are so cute.
Let's clear just a few things up here. I'd flame you, but I love your avatar too much.
The economic collapse didn't magically happen in '06 when Dems took over the house and congress. Things of this magnitude don't happen that quick. Deregulation is what really allowed the markets to crash so hard and the loss of investor confidence kept recovery from taking hold. This started during Clinton's last term and was made worse in Bush's first term I should point out.

American politics is funny, people of lesser intelligence get so caught up in the whole "Partisan Divide" and your Rush Limbaugh (see comments by Bill Hicks on him) plays on that to make a career for himself. He isn't in it for altruistic reasons, he's a greedy little toad, just like the majority of the politicians that have been elected in this country over the past 50 years.

Just as a little aside to you buddy:
1. You're taking this way to seriously. I'd guess you're a high school student with a niaviate that practically glows around you. No one hates you for having an opinion, no matter how uninformed it is. They may dislike you for feeling you must express it so forcefully, but then a shiny object passes by and you are forgotten.

2. No one is interested here in making you change your opinion. Fact is, this is a fringe gaming site. Nothing you say here matters to anyone. In fact at the stage of life I'd bet you're in, nothing you say anywhere really matters to anyone you don't know personally. That's the trouble with free speech and a huge forum ground like the internet. There is so much free speech that no on is listening to yours because you're unimportant. Not an insult just the truth. So don't get so worked up over this stuff you have utterly no impact on anyway. Go live and experience real life for a while. Get laid, drink beer, try drugs (Rush Limbaugh does, he even admitted it), fall in love, get heartbroken, make friends, go see a movie, play video games, play a musical instrument. All of these things are a better use of time than ranting about politics on a small to medium size gaming site.

3. If you're really that determined that "you matter" in politics then go find an organization that does something you believe in (the GOP if you must, political protesting and activism, charity work, soup kitchens, Big Brother/Big Sisters, etc) and volunteer your time and energy into that. That way you'll have some measurable effect instead of just wasting time and energy here.

 

[Horticulture]

I know you obama supporters will flame me, but I dont care. I'm sick of seeing my country torn down around me.

Nothing Obama or his administration does will help us, he is a failure, an empty suit, a commie in disguise, he wants to ruin our country, give ALL the power to the government. He wants the country to be dependant on the government, that is not how America works. We are not in a depression but under his reign we will enter a depression before his term is up. The more he spends, the more we sink. You think Bush's spending was bad? HA! In just 1 month in office he has increased the deficit 5 times more than Bush ever spent in his 8 years and 2 wars. You have seen NOTHING yet. Next thing Obama is targeting is oil prices, and how he can drive them up, because thats really what we need, $4+ at the pump again. Have you forgotten the reason why the economy is the way it is now? Lets go back to 2006 when the democrats gained the majority, leading us into this economic crisis.

Mr Obama, you have failed as a president only 1 month into your term. You are hearby the WORST president of all time. As Rush Limbaugh said, "I hope Obama fails" because I do not want what Obama wants for the country to work.

I'm sorry if you people fail to see that. Hate me all you want. I've spoken and nothing you can say will make me change my view.

Yes, this is definitely change I can believe in.

2. No one is interested here in making you change your opinion. Fact is, this is a fringe gaming site. Nothing you say here matters to anyone. In fact at the stage of life I'd bet you're in, nothing you say anywhere really matters to anyone you don't know personally. That's the trouble with free speech and a huge forum ground like the internet. There is so much free speech that no on is listening to yours because you're unimportant. Not an insult just the truth. So don't get so worked up over this stuff you have utterly no impact on anyway. Go live and experience real life for a while. Get laid, drink beer, try drugs (Rush Limbaugh does, he even admitted it), fall in love, get heartbroken, make friends, go see a movie, play video games, play a musical instrument. All of these things are a better use of time than ranting about politics on a small to medium size gaming site.

Further suggestions: Learn to spell, review the rules of English grammar, take a civics and economics course...

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I know you obama supporters will flame me, but I dont care. I'm sick of seeing my country torn down around me.

Nothing Obama or his administration does will help us, he is a failure, an empty suit, a commie in disguise, he wants to ruin our country, give ALL the power to the government. He wants the country to be dependant on the government, that is not how America works. We are not in a depression but under his reign we will enter a depression before his term is up. The more he spends, the more we sink. You think Bush's spending was bad? HA! In just 1 month in office he has increased the deficit 5 times more than Bush ever spent in his 8 years and 2 wars. You have seen NOTHING yet. Next thing Obama is targeting is oil prices, and how he can drive them up, because thats really what we need, $4+ at the pump again. Have you forgotten the reason why the economy is the way it is now? Lets go back to 2006 when the democrats gained the majority, leading us into this economic crisis.

Mr Obama, you have failed as a president only 1 month into your term. You are hearby the WORST president of all time. As Rush Limbaugh said, "I hope Obama fails" because I do not want what Obama wants for the country to work.

I'm sorry if you people fail to see that. Hate me all you want. I've spoken and nothing you can say will make me change my view.

Yes, this is definitely change I can believe in.

2. No one is interested here in making you change your opinion. Fact is, this is a fringe gaming site. Nothing you say here matters to anyone. In fact at the stage of life I'd bet you're in, nothing you say anywhere really matters to anyone you don't know personally. That's the trouble with free speech and a huge forum ground like the internet. There is so much free speech that no on is listening to yours because you're unimportant. Not an insult just the truth. So don't get so worked up over this stuff you have utterly no impact on anyway. Go live and experience real life for a while. Get laid, drink beer, try drugs (Rush Limbaugh does, he even admitted it), fall in love, get heartbroken, make friends, go see a movie, play video games, play a musical instrument. All of these things are a better use of time than ranting about politics on a small to medium size gaming site.

Further suggestions: Learn to spell, review the rules of English grammar, take a civics and economics course...

I, Lord Fondant of Chester, do hereby endorse this message and declare all persons opposing this message to be enemies of the British crown.

 

[Horticulture]

I know you obama supporters will flame me, but I dont care. I'm sick of seeing my country torn down around me.

Nothing Obama or his administration does will help us, he is a failure, an empty suit, a commie in disguise, he wants to ruin our country, give ALL the power to the government. He wants the country to be dependant on the government, that is not how America works. We are not in a depression but under his reign we will enter a depression before his term is up. The more he spends, the more we sink. You think Bush's spending was bad? HA! In just 1 month in office he has increased the deficit 5 times more than Bush ever spent in his 8 years and 2 wars. You have seen NOTHING yet. Next thing Obama is targeting is oil prices, and how he can drive them up, because thats really what we need, $4+ at the pump again. Have you forgotten the reason why the economy is the way it is now? Lets go back to 2006 when the democrats gained the majority, leading us into this economic crisis.

Mr Obama, you have failed as a president only 1 month into your term. You are hearby the WORST president of all time. As Rush Limbaugh said, "I hope Obama fails" because I do not want what Obama wants for the country to work.

I'm sorry if you people fail to see that. Hate me all you want. I've spoken and nothing you can say will make me change my view.

Yes, this is definitely change I can believe in.

2. No one is interested here in making you change your opinion. Fact is, this is a fringe gaming site. Nothing you say here matters to anyone. In fact at the stage of life I'd bet you're in, nothing you say anywhere really matters to anyone you don't know personally. That's the trouble with free speech and a huge forum ground like the internet. There is so much free speech that no on is listening to yours because you're unimportant. Not an insult just the truth. So don't get so worked up over this stuff you have utterly no impact on anyway. Go live and experience real life for a while. Get laid, drink beer, try drugs (Rush Limbaugh does, he even admitted it), fall in love, get heartbroken, make friends, go see a movie, play video games, play a musical instrument. All of these things are a better use of time than ranting about politics on a small to medium size gaming site.

Further suggestions: Learn to spell, review the rules of English grammar, take a civics and economics course...

I, Lord Fondant of Chester, do hereby endorse this message and declare all persons opposing this message to be enemies of the British crown.

Word.

But 'Crown' in that context is a proper noun

 

[ffxfriek]

Im working my butt off in college and at m y job so I can get a better job later so I can avoid debt. All the stuff happening NOW is affecting my entire future! If it continues this way, the future does indeed look grim

EXACTLY then theres people like me 1 year to go until college. Theres going to be no jobs left for me at college....then when im dont ill be from 100k in debt to 400k in debt. Or if i get a loan itll be at least 450k in debt. then i wanted to go to grad school. Where will i get hte money to pay this off as well as another 100k for "my" part of these porkulus bills that im not even getting MY fair share of it....