The generation that recreated Sexism.

[nerdsamwich]

I think that though many women in games are indecently proportioned, they are not always objectified. Laura Croft stands out as an example of a strong femenine hero.

As for fanart... Well, there's always been porn. The merging of WoW and porn just seems like a natural evolution if you happen to like porn and WoW. I would say that WoW erotica is less harmful than real erotica because Night Elves don't care if they are objectified.

Also, there is a leap between looking at erotica and objectifying women in real life. I have anecdotal evidence which need not be posted that this is not always the case.

I've never heard of women liking this sort of stuff. I have no idea where that's coming from.

As a guy whose female friends include several in the adult entertainment industry, I can tell you that plenty of women enjoy the thought of masses of men being aroused by them. They especially enjoy making ridiculous amounts of money for being attractive and visible. As for objectification, there's more than one way to skin a catsuit. The up-on-a-pedestal romanticism of classic poetry is just as objectifying as the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, it's just the qualities being objectified that are different. For that matter, what about the pervasive reduction of men to walking wallets with gonads, or, alternatively, empty physiques to graded like sides of beef? I know women who view men in both fashions, sometimes at the same time time. Women have always tended to view men as success objects; sexual equality means that they are now free to also view us as sex objects.

 

[JanatUrlich]

I think sexism was never eradicated so your point is meaningless anyway. It's not being 'recreated' it's just being continued.

 

[Dexiro]

Would you punch a girl if she made you angry?

Women aren't very punchable, It'd be like punching a frail little kitten! D:

Nah depends what their physique is like really but it's unlikely i'd punch anyone, i'd have to be really provoked.

Grim discussion D:

 

[Del-Toro]

And a reminder: I'm a male.

I don't believe you. Your reminders of the presence of a y chromosome remind me of a hundred and one TV shows where someone in disguise as someone else constantly reminds people around them that they are the person they are disguised as.

Men "jump to defend themselves" because generalizations by feminists and far left men who, in contrast to the supposed creeds of both ideologies, make sweeping generalizations about men as a whole.

Yes, I believe that women ought to be equal to men. However, for this to be truely the case, laws and special protections that women recieve under the law, which men do not, would have to be removed. You, however, clearly do not agree with this statement. You assume that women need the support of the state and of like minded men to gain traction in society, and that they need extra protection. You do not claim that they can achieve the goals of feminism on their own. You do not give them much credit. There are countless scholarships and assistance programs specifically for women. Few such oppourtunities are available for men. They are considered sexist and unfair. Those for women are not.

Workplace sexual harrassment is a curious thing, and could mean a wide variety of things. Many of them, women can do to men, and no one bats an eye. A man oggles a woman, there are angry protests in the streets. A woman oggles a man, and there is no consequence. This is one example of a much larger debate.

Men like what men like and women like what women like. Both sexes are equally guilty of sexual objectification by it's current definition. Get over it.

 

[Axolotl]

Initial question: Do you believe that our generation is recreating sexism?

How does one recreate something that never stopped?

Also I'm surprised how many people readily identify themselves as feminists.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler: Best Post in Topic

And a reminder: I'm a male.

I don't believe you. Your reminders of the presence of a y chromosome remind me of a hundred and one TV shows where someone in disguise as someone else constantly reminds people around them that they are the person they are disguised as.

Men "jump to defend themselves" because generalizations by feminists and far left men who, in contrast to the supposed creeds of both ideologies, make sweeping generalizations about men as a whole.

Yes, I believe that women ought to be equal to men. However, for this to be truely the case, laws and special protections that women recieve under the law, which men do not, would have to be removed. You, however, clearly do not agree with this statement. You assume that women need the support of the state and of like minded men to gain traction in society, and that they need extra protection. You do not claim that they can achieve the goals of feminism on their own. You do not give them much credit. There are countless scholarships and assistance programs specifically for women. Few such oppourtunities are available for men. They are considered sexist and unfair. Those for women are not.

Workplace sexual harrassment is a curious thing, and could mean a wide variety of things. Many of them, women can do to men, and no one bats an eye. A man oggles a woman, there are angry protests in the streets. A woman oggles a man, and there is no consequence. This is one example of a much larger debate.

Men like what men like and women like what women like. Both sexes are equally guilty of sexual objectification by it's current definition. Get over it.

Excellent.

Spoiler: And another post

PIts awesome how you don't fight against my argument, but instead throw pornography at me

You posted a strip with the word "porn" in it. I assumed you were using it to try to make some kind of point. My bad, apparently.

Your other "argument" was anecdotal evidence, and I've met six people in the last five seconds who told me anecdotal evidence is useless.

People like tits. Hence, they put tits in video games. Get. Over. It.

Yeah, people like ice cream too, but they don't put ice cream in pasta. Point is, I have porn. If I want to jerk it, I will go and get my porn. I do not need my games to give me auxiliary porn just in case my regular porn is broken or something.

Its XKCD, and I've several times in this topic admitted to an attempt to inject some humor in here to smooth this fury fest down (I typed furry several times before my fingers cooperated with me. Damn it.).

And while it may be anecdotal, I'm just pointing out that you don't know the mind set of the vast majority of women out there. Go out and ask them. This is how I make up my mind, by asking real people, not consulting wikipedia's page on feminism and female behavior.

As for the ice cream/spaghetti argument, its quite invalid. They don't put ice cream in pasta because no one likes it. They put tits in video games because most do.

Also I'm surprised how many people readily identify themselves as feminists.

So am I. Personally, I think a new term should be supplied: The Equal Rights Activist.

Because the word feminism offends me, and thats wrong.

 

[Evil Tim]

As for the ice cream/spaghetti argument, its quite invalid. They don't put ice cream in pasta because no one likes it. They put tits in video games because most do.

Analogies do not work like that.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#analogy

Just because something is nice is no reason to add it to everything. Constant titillitation changes from awesome to tiresome in fairly short order, much like ice cream with everything stops being a good idea when you just want a bowl of chicken soup or some spaghetti.

If I want to look at tits, I'll go and look at tits. I don't need someone constantly tapping me on the shoulder reminding me of the existence of tits as if I'd somehow forgotten in the last five minutes, and I certainly don't like that this is often the only function female characters have.

 

[DefunctTheory]

As for the ice cream/spaghetti argument, its quite invalid. They don't put ice cream in pasta because no one likes it. They put tits in video games because most do.

Analogies do not work like that.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#analogy

Just because something is nice is no reason to add it to everything. Constant titillitation changes from awesome to tiresome in fairly short order, much like ice cream with everything stops being a good idea when you just want a bowl of chicken soup or some spaghetti.

The fallacy of the Extended Analogy often occurs when some suggested general rule is being argued over. The fallacy is to assume that mentioning two different situations, in an argument about a general rule, constitutes a claim that those situations are analogous to each other.

Actually, you brought up the analogy. I pointed out the analogy was false. So I'm not sure what your talking about.

But it seems you don;t have anything else to say on the matter, so I'll move on I suppose.

EDIT: Actually, you have a point there. I love bacon, but I don't want my house smelling like it. However, the female form works in more situations than bacon.

 

[Good morning blues]

My fundamental belief is that everybody should have completely equal opportunity and have the freedom to do whatever they want with it. This means that women absolutely should be allowed to express their sexuality in whatever way they see fit, but that Western society still has a long way to go before we solve the problems of gender discrimination.

I don't think that sexualizing women is "resurrecting misogyny;" that suggests that this problem ever went away.

 

[Evil Tim]

Actually, you brought up the analogy. I pointed out the analogy was false. So I'm not sure what your talking about.

But it seems you don;t have anything else to say on the matter, so I'll move on I suppose.

Granted, I edited my post, but...

Just because something is nice is no reason to add it to everything. Constant titillitation changes from awesome to tiresome in fairly short order, much like ice cream with everything stops being a good idea when you just want a bowl of chicken soup or some spaghetti.

If I want to look at tits, I'll go and look at tits. I don't need someone constantly tapping me on the shoulder reminding me of the existence of tits as if I'd somehow forgotten in the last five minutes, and I certainly don't like that this is often the only function female characters have.

 

[captainwolfos]

As undoubtedly previously stated in this thread (I'm not reading through six pages of this topic, thank you), what about the male side? Sexism doesn't always apply to women, and there is just as much porn regarding the women in video games as there is men.

TF2 is a classic example; just search any of the characters in Google images with safesearch off and you'll see what I mean.
[small]Not that I encourage this sort of thing >_>[/small]

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I don't think we're the generation that recreated sexism, but we're definitely the one that over analyzed it.

 

[PinkAngelKitty]

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

in real context for a woman to do the things that most male characters do in games she would have a massive amount of body mass immune to emotionla scarring and be able to carry 40 different guns without complaint can you see that as a likeable character

Why are those traits only likeable in a male character?

 

[Zer_]

I disagree with just about ever assumption you've made.

Women right now are more powerful than God. The law is horrendously skewed in their favor.

Their is, however, a sexism of a sort: but its the females fault, sort of. It mostly has to do with the ridiculously poor defined 'sexual harassment.' It has nothing to do with the 'sex sells' examples you provide.

And for Christ sack, its not objectification. Women pretty without clothes=people look at women with little clothing. Its that simple.

There may be certain laws that are horrendously skewed in their favour, but how many other aspects of society favours men?

"No no sir, I ain't responsible for no hatin' on no woman-folk. S'all their fault."

It kind of is objectification when all you would want to see is a woman with little clothing. Because then it's not about her as a person, it's more about her for what she looks like.

What about movies, literature, comics, tv, hell, every other media ever made by a man about a woman?

Men liek hot women. Get over it.

Yeah, sorry, I was trying to talk about media as a whole.

I understand that men like hot women. But that's like saying that it's all the woman's fault for eating disorders and whatnot because she wants to look good for all the men so they can find her suitably fuckable.

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

I am curious then, what are your thoughts on the Mass Effect series? While you do have a point concerning the damsel in distress idea, it is merely fiction. Sometimes you get yourself into some shit that you need someone's help in getting out of.
-On a personal note:were you the person I cussed out in "Hate for Canada"? I'm thinking you were, but I've forgotten. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just trying to remember. I have trouble remembering sometimes.

Oh sure. We all need a little help from time to time. But why is it ALWAYS the female that does it? Why is it always the male that has to save her? We are even alienated by situations in which this isn't the case. See: Kick-Ass controversy. As for mass effect? I've never played it. Aren't you able to play as a female character in the second one? Isn't that role on of leadership? That's good; we need more of that.

The Kick-Ass controversy has very little to do with the fact that it's a female protagonist and much more to do with the fact that it's a child in such a violent movie. Either way, it's total hogwash.

Video Games and any media type will always generalize. It doesn't matter if you're a woman, black, white, green or maroon. Getting worked up over it will only create unnecessary stress in your life. Focus on things that are NOT fantasy.

 

[TurkeyProphet]

Purely a discussion, I spent a little bit searching the forums and couldn't find a similar topic.

Initial question: Do you believe that our generation is recreating sexism?

I ask this to the gaming community for a reason.

It is no secret that women have a certain "special" role in most video games. Sure, there are the few that stand out (Mirror's Edge, etc), but for the most part women are awkwardly proportioned with the purpose of being loved by the male protagonist.

I play World of Warcraft, and their fanart section is often plagued with drawings of scantily clad females (and when I scantily, I mean ridiculously) in suggestive poses. And the same can be said about a lot of other pictures/video content in today's media.

But what do we call it? We tend to call it the sexual liberation of females.

So let me get this straight: Back when the rights of females were in question, this sort of objectification was highly frowned upon because it was the "men" who were just drooling over them. It was wrong.

Now, however, it's okay? Why? Because the women finally turned around and said "Hey, wait, no. I kind of liked that."

There also tends to be a rather negative view of those who fight for the rights of females. The term "feminist" is thrown around as a joke, the social stigma is so thick it's worse than marmalade on a hot day. But maybe some males are also tired of seeing the same-old bland and shameless disrespect in so many forms of media.

I bring this to you because I think this community is more level-headed than most others.

tl;dr: Do you think our generation (media) is recreating sexism under a different label?
Do you think women help perpetuate it with a sort of stockholm-syndrome?
Is anyone else tired of seeing the same-old thinly veiled objectification?

Also, I am a male.

I'm going to ignore the 5 pages and just focus on the initial post because it has slightly irritated me.

Firstly the media depicting women nude is nothing new. Just have a look back through history, apart from the Victorian era people were nuts about naked ladies. And it's true they weren't portrayed as sluts but they are still pretty sexual. Also you don't have to read a lot of literature to realise that society has always had a similar mindset towards women.

Secondly most people do not call this sexual liberation. They see it for what it is and the truth is men like to look at titties. Being a slut and being sexually liberated aren't necessarily the same thing and fantasy is fantasy.

Also you have to abstract sexuality from society in general (although many philosophers/psychologists may argue differently). You mention Stockholm syndrome and I think it is kinda true. Women like to be abused to an extent, not wanting to sound like a pervert or anything but women kinda like men to be dominant. They like to have someone take control because it gives them a feeling of protection. However within society they should be treated like equals. I'm not going to elaborate I just hope you get my point - women like it rough in the bedroom but not in real life.

The term feminist is very silly in my opinion. It's a bit like referring to someone as religious because feminists break down into all types of schisms and people usually only focus on the nutters.

 

[PinkAngelKitty]

I disagree with just about ever assumption you've made.

Women right now are more powerful than God. The law is horrendously skewed in their favor.

Their is, however, a sexism of a sort: but its the females fault, sort of. It mostly has to do with the ridiculously poor defined 'sexual harassment.' It has nothing to do with the 'sex sells' examples you provide.

And for Christ sack, its not objectification. Women pretty without clothes=people look at women with little clothing. Its that simple.

There may be certain laws that are horrendously skewed in their favour, but how many other aspects of society favours men?

"No no sir, I ain't responsible for no hatin' on no woman-folk. S'all their fault."

It kind of is objectification when all you would want to see is a woman with little clothing. Because then it's not about her as a person, it's more about her for what she looks like.

What about movies, literature, comics, tv, hell, every other media ever made by a man about a woman?

Men liek hot women. Get over it.

Yeah, sorry, I was trying to talk about media as a whole.

I understand that men like hot women. But that's like saying that it's all the woman's fault for eating disorders and whatnot because she wants to look good for all the men so they can find her suitably fuckable.

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

I am curious then, what are your thoughts on the Mass Effect series? While you do have a point concerning the damsel in distress idea, it is merely fiction. Sometimes you get yourself into some shit that you need someone's help in getting out of.
-On a personal note:were you the person I cussed out in "Hate for Canada"? I'm thinking you were, but I've forgotten. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just trying to remember. I have trouble remembering sometimes.

Oh sure. We all need a little help from time to time. But why is it ALWAYS the female that does it? Why is it always the male that has to save her? We are even alienated by situations in which this isn't the case. See: Kick-Ass controversy. As for mass effect? I've never played it. Aren't you able to play as a female character in the second one? Isn't that role on of leadership? That's good; we need more of that.

The Kick-Ass controversy has very little to do with the fact that it's a female protagonist and much more to do with the fact that it's a child in such a violent movie. Either way, it's total hogwash.

Video Games and any media type will always generalize. It doesn't matter if you're a woman, black, white, green or maroon. Getting worked up over it will only create unnecessary stress in your life. Focus on things that are NOT fantasy.

It was because it was a female child. There are plenty of movies that contain extreme violence perpetrated by children but they are almost always boys and therefore it doesn't cause people to be outraged by it.

Ok so wait a minute; I'm confused. You're telling me that I shouldn't get worked up over stuff that is fantasy... right? So are you saying that objectification of women is a fantasy? As in like... it doesn't exist in a real world setting? Cuz I have to laugh if that's what you're saying. I'm sure it isn't, in which case I implore you to be more clear when you undoubtedly respond to this slightly outraged that I have audacity to disagree with you. Perhaps be a little bit more choosy with your words? When I was younger and I was having trouble forming coherent thoughts, it helped me to practice in front of a mirror. Perhaps before you post, you should read them to yourself in front of a mirror and then try to keep a straight face. I think you'll find it beneficial.

Lastly I was going to go into some long speech about how just because something always happens doesn't mean that it is right and just, and I was going to list many examples of this, peppered with a few examples in which it proves to sometimes be better to do something which isn't right and just, but I really don't think I have to. You live in a word where objectification and sexism is a fantasy. I have no doubt that your world is also free of instances where bad things are done and allowed to continue happening simply because that's how things have always been done. I am envious of you, sir.

 

[Foolishman1776]

Feminism is sexism, it's a violent movement started by dysfunctional women, look up Erin Pizey. Makes the point quite well, I think.

Alright, my opinion. Stop it, stop making threads like these. Stop the hand wringing, stop trying to push forward this crazy liberal agenda. Women are not victims, and have not been victims historically any more than men. When I told my grandmother that I believed gender equity had been achieved, she scoffed and said that if that's the case, women had come down a step or two. Men have always bent over backwards for women, whole nations have been born or been destroyed for women. Men like the way women look, and women know this, they use it to their advantage all the time. As for the unrealistic standards and all that, blame that one on either a few ad execs, or women and gay men, who write all woman's interest magazines (I flipped through one, no one writing for them has ever talked to a man), and control the fashion industry, respectively.


Incidentally, divorces are overwhelmingly (70%) initiated by women these days. The number they are responsible for by treating their spouses like garbage may be a lot higher. Women are people too. They aren't any better or worse than men, they've just got free passes from society to act as they damn well please these days, and you're not helping.

Your argumentation is quite conclusive.
What happened to Pizzey is indeed a sad case of extremism; but I'm frankly sickened by the notion that this would somehow be the default of a feminist mindset.
And "dysfunctional women"? Your bigotry is practically bleeding off the screen.
I've already stated my opinion on the matter of prevailing gender issues, and how I see both men and women complicit in furthering this absurd conflict of interests.
From what I can gather of your post, men are merely a peripheral in the scheme of things; nigh bereft of any kind of guilt or responsibility.
Or rather, we are being "deceived".
And how is that divorce statistic (A source and national context would also be appreciated, regardless of how irrelevant to this issue it may be) proof of spousal abuse perpetrated by women? It may just as well be the other way around. Or a consensual agreement, simply initiated by the wife.
Unless you can provide me with some in-depth information here, you're really plucking at straws.

We can agree on one thing though. Women are people. As are men. And both are equally corruptible.