The generation that recreated Sexism.

[Downfall89]

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

Exactly.

But then games wouldn't be fun, as the woman would be able to save herself.. And no one likes a spoil sport.

I kid, but OT: I just think it's just a joke. Although sexism is prevalent, obviously, I don't think it's as obvious or as accepted as it once was. Obviously.

EDIT: I'm chivalrous not because woman are weak, but because women are important.. and have ASSets. Take a joke Escapist.

 

[AtticusSP]

It can work both ways. Less women play video games, so they target it to men. But any TV show oriented towards women usually makes men out as sex objects in some way, or incredibly stupid. Both genders enjoy feeling better than the other.

 

[Evil Tim]

It's rather obvious in gaming, too. Sure, gaming apparently "traditionally" relies on male audience, but come on. All the male characters are as objectified as the female ones. They're so ripped that they'd have to be some kind of super body builders.

Really? I don't notice the males wearing tiny thongs and being built like gun carriages; usually they're all covered up with big suits of armour, and even when they're not their big muscles are there to make them powerful. You see very few extremely sexualised male characters (Voldo would be a classic) and when you do see them, straight males are generally creeped out by it.

I dislike the tendency for female characters to be under-dressed and under-utilised. The female form is a fine thing, but so is ice cream, and I don't expect computer games to routinely hurl scoops of ice cream in my face just in case.

 

[LiquidGrape]

Feminism is sexism, it's a violent movement started by dysfunctional women, look up Erin Pizey. Makes the point quite well, I think.

Alright, my opinion. Stop it, stop making threads like these. Stop the hand wringing, stop trying to push forward this crazy liberal agenda. Women are not victims, and have not been victims historically any more than men. When I told my grandmother that I believed gender equity had been achieved, she scoffed and said that if that's the case, women had come down a step or two. Men have always bent over backwards for women, whole nations have been born or been destroyed for women. Men like the way women look, and women know this, they use it to their advantage all the time. As for the unrealistic standards and all that, blame that one on either a few ad execs, or women and gay men, who write all woman's interest magazines (I flipped through one, no one writing for them has ever talked to a man), and control the fashion industry, respectively.


Incidentally, divorces are overwhelmingly (70%) initiated by women these days. The number they are responsible for by treating their spouses like garbage may be a lot higher. Women are people too. They aren't any better or worse than men, they've just got free passes from society to act as they damn well please these days, and you're not helping.

Your argumentation is quite conclusive.
What happened to Pizzey is indeed a sad case of extremism; but I'm frankly sickened by the notion that this would somehow be the default of a feminist mindset.
And "dysfunctional women"? Your bigotry is practically bleeding off the screen.
I've already stated my opinion on the matter of prevailing gender issues, and how I see both men and women complicit in furthering this absurd conflict of interests.
From what I can gather of your post, men are merely a peripheral in the scheme of things; nigh bereft of any kind of guilt or responsibility.
Or rather, we are being "deceived".
And how is that divorce statistic (A source and national context would also be appreciated, regardless of how irrelevant to this issue it may be) proof of spousal abuse perpetrated by women? It may just as well be the other way around. Or a consensual agreement, simply initiated by the wife.
Unless you can provide me with some in-depth information here, you're really plucking at straws.

We can agree on one thing though. Women are people. As are men. And both are equally corruptible.

 

[Wormthong]

just one thing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLWlBgj0uOc
it basically explains to woman how men are "supposed to be" (in a funny way)
i think it makes a good point that being a women does have certain disadvantages being a man also has a lot of that

 

[MicrosoftPaysMe]

Ever playing a game and there are a bunch of guys joking around then a girl comes into the party and it just completely turns into "OMG ITS A GIRL EVERY1 BE COOL" Yea

 

[Therumancer]

Purely a discussion, I spent a little bit searching the forums and couldn't find a similar topic.

Initial question: Do you believe that our generation is recreating sexism?

I ask this to the gaming community for a reason.

It is no secret that women have a certain "special" role in most video games. Sure, there are the few that stand out (Mirror's Edge, etc), but for the most part women are awkwardly proportioned with the purpose of being loved by the male protagonist.

I play World of Warcraft, and their fanart section is often plagued with drawings of scantily clad females (and when I scantily, I mean ridiculously) in suggestive poses. And the same can be said about a lot of other pictures/video content in today's media.

But what do we call it? We tend to call it the sexual liberation of females.

So let me get this straight: Back when the rights of females were in question, this sort of objectification was highly frowned upon because it was the "men" who were just drooling over them. It was wrong.

Now, however, it's okay? Why? Because the women finally turned around and said "Hey, wait, no. I kind of liked that."

There also tends to be a rather negative view of those who fight for the rights of females. The term "feminist" is thrown around as a joke, the social stigma is so thick it's worse than marmalade on a hot day. But maybe some males are also tired of seeing the same-old bland and shameless disrespect in so many forms of media.

I bring this to you because I think this community is more level-headed than most others.

tl;dr: Do you think our generation (media) is recreating sexism under a different label?
Do you think women help perpetuate it with a sort of stockholm-syndrome?
Is anyone else tired of seeing the same-old thinly veiled objectification?

Also, I am a male.

I disagree heavily. Part of the reason is that those images you mention appeal to women just as much as they do to men. Both genders dream about being the physical ideal.

You will notice that when they choose to create art, or write, women produce the same exact stuff that you mention above. Heck, I'll even go so far as to say that women are WORSE and more perverted than men when it comes to what some people attempt to label as exploitation, all you have to do is look at the "Paranormal Romance" genere for evidence of that.

Generally speaking it seems that those who seriously complain about sexism in this regard are either guys trying to impress girls with how sensitive they are, OR very conservative feminists. Then you have what I consider a less serious crowd who complain about portraying a physical ideal or letting those who are good looking strut their stuff because it's unfair to those who aren't so "gifted" or gives youth a bad impression/self image if they don't meet it. To be honest women are more vocal here, but you have guys who make similar arguements about body builders and such. On one hand you have the women pointing towards girls who purge and become bulemic trying to be skinny, and guys pointing towards teen steroid abuse and the like.

 

[Evil Tim]

I disagree heavily. Part of the reason is that those images you mention appeal to women just as much as they do to men. Both genders dream about being the physical ideal.

Um, sure. Women love looking at male fantasies of women wearing roughly enough material to make half a postage stamp, just like men like looking at pictures of oily musclemen wearing speedos while sporting obvious erections.

Wait, they don't, do they?

It's not a case of dreaming about being the physical ideal, it's about having the physically impossible shoved in your face at every opportunity while said characters have no other function. If you're a male character, you can be old, young, slim, fat, muscular, wirey, handsome, ugly, smart, stupid...Females, it's tits or gtfo.

 

[Wedlock49]

I want to see a game where the protagonist is openly homosexual. But no, we're not recreating sexism, believe it or not equality hasn't been achieved yet.

Would you punch a girl if she made you angry? Would you punch a guy? What if she hit you first? If you take a girl on a date to you insist that you pay for everything? All these things are sexist to an extent. We'll never have a soley equal society because men and woman are not the same! We all behave differently, we grow up differently and we all think differently. I love girls that are quite boyish but I couldn't be with a woman who strived to emasculate me! I'm still male and my ego is a fragile thing as it is with most men. I expect myself to be allowed to be a male in any relationship I am in, because it's male instict to protect "their" woman or to boast and strive for the alpha male position. There comes a point where equality starts fighting nature and that's when it become a problem.

There is a difference between the sexes psychologically and physically but that doesn't mean women should be discriminated against, they are just as capable as males to accomplish tasks and the differences are just superficial.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I disagree heavily. Part of the reason is that those images you mention appeal to women just as much as they do to men. Both genders dream about being the physical ideal.

Um, sure. Women love looking at male fantasies of women wearing roughly enough material to make half a postage stamp, just like men like looking at pictures of oily musclemen wearing speedos while sporting obvious erections.

Wait, they don't, do they?

They do. Every women I've ever met has commented, frequently, about the attractiveness of other females.

Why do you think that the trend of males looking like females has risen? Its because the female form is universally attractive across the sexual spectrum. Even gay men will find beauty in the female form.

 

[Mozared]

Well, I think it'll turn out like the 60's to 70's era. The 60's had a very strong "sexual liberation" thing going on, as evidenced very strongly by "Bond Girls," which was followed by a backlash of a more conservative Feminist movement in the 70's.

History repeats itself quite often, and I believe our current generation will be just that.

This, I just want to stress this. If you look at different 'subjects' in history you'll often find that they come in waves - first stuff happens too liberal, and as a response to that stuff will start being stricter in a period of time after that. It wouldn't surprise me if it was the same with 'female objectification'. I suppose we'll have our answer to that in 10 to 20 years.

 

[Artemicion]

Actually affirmative action prevented my friend from getting a job he would have excelled at. The interviewer said that they were required to hire more females. So try not to say that people look down at female-rights activists without causation. I'm all for equal rights - but I'm not for creating laws that prevent some people from getting important things like jobs so other people can take them instead. That's just as sexist.


(please note that I'm aware affirmative action has been around since the 1960's and does not necessarily correspond to the main discussion. However, I feel it is relevant to some of what has been mentioned in the thread.)

 

[Evil Tim]

They do. Every women I've ever met has commented, frequently, about the attractiveness of other females.

And this translates to "enjoying looking at images of scantily-clad females with impossible figures and no meaningful role above simple titillation" in what universe, now?

 

[DefunctTheory]

They do. Every women I've ever met has commented, frequently, about the attractiveness of other females.

And this translates to "enjoying looking at images of scantily-clad females with impossible figures and no meaningful role above simple titillation" in what universe, now?

For every female I've ever met, yes (Well, except for one, but she's a tight ass [Which is odd, because her ass is anything but tight, lol {I'm being funny at the expense of the topic at hand. I must be sexist}]).

 

[Therumancer]

I disagree heavily. Part of the reason is that those images you mention appeal to women just as much as they do to men. Both genders dream about being the physical ideal.

Um, sure. Women love looking at male fantasies of women wearing roughly enough material to make half a postage stamp, just like men like looking at pictures of oily musclemen wearing speedos while sporting obvious erections.

Wait, they don't, do they?

It's not a case of dreaming about being the physical ideal, it's about having the physically impossible shoved in your face at every opportunity while said characters have no other function. If you're a male character, you can be old, young, slim, fat, muscular, wirey, handsome, ugly, smart, stupid...Females, it's tits or gtfo.

Well, I think you have the imagery wrong when it comes to men. I'm talking about stuff like Frank Frazetta artwork of Conan and such, or how they pumped up Chris Redfield's arms for the Resident Evil 5 game. A lot of guys look at stuff like that and wish they could get that pumped.

It's sort of like a guy putting a picture of a famous body builder, power lifter, boxer, etc... on the wall of their gym or workout room. Nothing gay about it, it's an ideal.

As far as women looking at other women wearing as little as a "postage stamp" and so on, I think you'd be REALLY surprised. A lot of women are heavily into fashion and that includes things like swimsuit and lingerie.

When it comes to the "physically impossible", I suppose it's debatable. In general however when your looking at artwork and fantasy it's showing an ideal intentionally. What's more in the context of video games, RPGs, novels, etc... the impossibility of the entire thing is part of the point. Nobody who doesn't do 'roids is as buffed as a Frank Frazetta painting ( as Arnie sadly proved ), but it fits within the setting. Conan is a dude who is going to overcome semi-divine monsters with "a single mighty blow" (Robert E. Howard was not the best writer of choreography to ever live)... no real person is likely able to do this stuff, and Conan reflects that. It's not to everyone's taste, but honestly when you consider Conan decapitated "The God In The Bowl" (a giant snake) reflexively while apparently in a panic of sorts (it's been a while) there is a reason why there is artwork of him with biceps that are bigger around than his neck in many cases.


Generally speaking fantasy is fantasy, I see nothing at all even remotely wrong with the way the artwork is for either gender. Ditto for the people they use for models and actors to promote products.

I do not think either gender is unfairly exploited, nor do I think things should be censored or pressured out of existance (well actually I'm against that when it comes to almost everything).

 

[Evil Tim]

For every female I've ever met, yes (Well, except for one, but she's a tight ass [Which is odd, because her ass is anything but tight, lol {I'm being funny at the expense of the topic at hand. I must be sexist}]).

So wait, you're saying it's not sexist if you judge videogames by the standards of pornography? Yeah, you're definately not in the same universe there. How many suns does your version of Earth have? Are there ratcats?

Well, I think you have the imagery wrong when it comes to men. I'm talking about stuff like Frank Frazetta artwork of Conan and such, or how they pumped up Chris Redfield's arms for the Resident Evil 5 game. A lot of guys look at stuff like that and wish they could get that pumped.

Yes, exactly; it's not objectifying, it's empowering the male to look that way. Having muscles makes him stronger. On the other hand, the female character isn't underdressed and implausibly proportioned to make her more powerful, she looks like that for members of the other gender playing the game one-handed.

 

[DefunctTheory]

For every female I've ever met, yes (Well, except for one, but she's a tight ass [Which is odd, because her ass is anything but tight, lol {I'm being funny at the expense of the topic at hand. I must be sexist}]).

So wait, you're saying it's not sexist if you judge videogames by the standards of pornography? Yeah, you're definately not in the same universe there. How many suns does your version of Earth have? Are there ratcats?

Oh, must have jumped in at the wrong time. Didn't know we were talking about video games.

Its awesome how you don't fight against my argument, but instead throw pornography at me, even though you're describing erotica, something very much different.

But if you want to talk about video games specifically, I have only one argument...

People like tits. Hence, they put tits in video games. Get. Over. It.

 

[Evil Tim]

PIts awesome how you don't fight against my argument, but instead throw pornography at me

You posted a strip with the word "porn" in it. I assumed you were using it to try to make some kind of point. My bad, apparently.

Your other "argument" was anecdotal evidence, and I've met six people in the last five seconds who told me anecdotal evidence is useless.

People like tits. Hence, they put tits in video games. Get. Over. It.

Yeah, people like ice cream too, but they don't put ice cream in pasta. Point is, I have porn. If I want to jerk it, I will go and get my porn. I do not need my games to give me auxiliary porn just in case my regular porn is broken or something.

 

[The Stonker]

I like to start my post by saying.
I don't like feminists because they believe (most of them) that women should have more rights then a man and be more superior because they can "harbour life".
Now I would love to go equal rights which everyone is treated fairly or everyone is treated so poorly that no one can complain about the other person.
And plus women today are actually in most cases better off because think about it if a woman screams rape rape they take her seriously if she isn't a slut.
But when a man screams rape rape then heheheheeh good luck pal and a woman who has a lustrous body has more chance to get into a job position then a man even tho he's better because why?
Men are men and nothing is going to change that.

.

Either way feminists go dig a hole because back in the day then you were in the kitchen and the man was working I do understand all of these "free this and free that and free willy" but things take time and if you want to be treated like an equal does not mean that you can treat the man next to you like he's dirt and yes I've been harrassed by feminists and sexual offenders.

What can I say? I'm not a fighter but a lover but no one will listen to me.