The generation that recreated Sexism.

[icecrystal2k]

//my post

I'm just going to have to argue on this point. Young men are constantly being taught that their self-worth is wrapped up in what they can provide to their mate and their kids. Men are expected to be chained to a desk until they drop dead. Men are expected to know and provide handyman skills around the home. The man is expected to respond to that mysterious noise in the middle of the night. We have to prove our worth with the best jobs possible to earn as much money as we can no matter the stress on ourselves because that's all we're good for.

And we have to do it with stoic determination. Can't complain, can't show emotions, can't let the stress show because that's unmanly and no one likes an unmanly man. Especially women.

To top it all off then we relax at home, turn on some prime-time tv and witness sitcoms and programs denegrating men and husbands by portraying them as infantile and ineffectual while their brilliant and exceptional wives show them up and critisize them every episode.

Not to say that there isn't a fair amount of social pressure on women, I know there is. But don't just assume that men are raised to be without responsiblities and think of themselves first.

I don't argue there are extreme social pressures on men as well, after all, sometimes men are called (disgustingly) "the disposable gender". There's a lot of competing, too, among other men. That's hard-wired, innit? Obviously I do not believe that men are explicitly taught to "think of themselves first".

I hesitate to say this because it's based on anecdotal evidence, personal experience, and "general impression", but it seems much easier for a man to lose himself in academia or a high-stakes, long-hours career while simultaneously being a father and husband (however nominally), than for a woman to do the same. (Extremely time-consuming, intensive career and motherhood, not fatherhood obv. Heh.) I'm not saying it's impossible or it doesn't happen, just that it is less likely, and point to most any political body or executive board meeting to support this statement. Some conscious or unconscious force must account for that - I'm willing to entertain that to some extent it might be personal preference for a woman to forgo other avenues of interest and enrichment to raise children or care for family. It might even be more nature than nurture, but I'm not entirely convinced. From my own experience, the different ways I've seen females and males (friends/family) respond to births or family illnesses to even things like finally scrubbing the splash zone around the toilet, women are not any more eager to take time out to do the necessary things, they're just more willing and that is perceived as their sphere of responsibility. While simultaneously also working full-time like their male, and having just as many other obligations. (I realize this is all anecdotal. I apologize.)

I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone. Not men, not women, we're all complicit to some extent and we're all ... I hesitate to say victims, but we're all influenced?

You make an excellent point about the expectations placed on men, and of course the reality is never as cut and dried as an internet discussion that necessitates broad language and generalization. I would argue that there's a difference between occasionally heading downstairs to check for burglars and spending your day at work, then coming home and doing the stupid day-to-day stuff that must be done, but of course the former is not selfish and the latter not entirely selfless.

"And we have to do it with stoic determination. Can't complain, can't show emotions, can't let the stress show because that's unmanly and no one likes an unmanly man. Especially women."

I'll just reiterate, though someone has responded - this is not true. To me, one of the greatest tragedies of the cult of masculinity is this enforced idea of emotionlessness fostered by and among men. My boyfriend tells me his fears, he cries, and he wouldn't dare do that in front of his male friends or his father or brother, for example. I don't think any less of him. I think more of him, because he's not maintaining a ridiculous mask and is being genuine. And, of course, it's a sign of trust that I hold very dear, but it would be easier for him if he had more emotional outlets.

Thank you for your reply, and you make excellent points. In an ideal world we'd all just get on with loving each other and we'd all be free to choose our roles free from preconceptions or external influences, and I agree that there are forces at work on both sides.

 

[Estocavio]

I disagree with just about ever assumption you've made.

Women right now are more powerful than God. The law is horrendously skewed in their favor.

Their is, however, a sexism of a sort: but its the females fault, sort of. It mostly has to do with the ridiculously poor defined 'sexual harassment.' It has nothing to do with the 'sex sells' examples you provide.

And for Christ sack, its not objectification. Women pretty without clothes=people look at women with little clothing. Its that simple.

I agree - And women look at men with little clothing.
Any 'sexist' logic applied to men by women can be shot right back.

 

[ZephrC]

You know what? Fuck this stupid shit. As a liberal white male, I'm sick of being compelled to feel guilty for shit that isn't my fault. I'm done with it. Fuck everyone that doesn't agree.

For decades now I've been worried about the rights of women and minorities and everyone else besides me. Fuck it. What the fuck do you even want me to do about it? Yeah, equal rights are awesome. Nobody should be made to do anything they don't want to just because of how they were born. I get that.

So?

I'm sick of hearing about how God damned awful I am. I'm suffering from a serious case of guilt burnout. Okay sure, maybe I've never experienced what it's like to be a woman. Do want me to grow some boobs? What the hell do you want from me? I go out of my way to treat women better than men all the damn time, but all I ever hear is how men suck, and it's evil to like looking at attractive women and stupid shit like that. Fuck that noise. I'm playing games where magic is real, weapons are bigger than the dudes wielding them and the men are all muscle-bound assholes that solve everything by beating it into submission. So the fuck what if the women are unrealistic, everything else is too.

As for the original post, I find it laughable that you ever thought sexism went anywhere. Seriously, do you think the 80s were a magical time were everybody loved each other and nobody was mean? Women try to play it off like they're all martyred saints, and certainly there are disadvantages to being a woman, but seriously? All those stupid expectations you have? Men haven't supplied any of them since before most of you were born. You do that to yourselves. Here's a hint most women could use: If you feel like you're doing more than your fair share, ask for help. With words. Most guys aren't privy to your magical "communication" beams that don't use any sort of communication.

I mean yes, sexism is still real, racism is still real, white males still have it better off, blah blah blah... but, what the fuck do you want me to do about it? And if you don't have anything useful to add, can we please just shut the fuck up for, like, five fucking minutes? Please?

 

[Dexiro]

I do show respect to women who deserve it. However, I refuse to show respect to someone just because they're a woman.

You made your point kind of aggresively but that seems like the right attitude to adopt. It's so annoying that we're sometimes asked to give respect to women just because they're women.
They should gain and be given respect just like guys have to.

Same applies if we're asked to give respect to minorities. People preach about equality and then demand special treatment.

 

[Queen Michael]

"Feminism; the strange idea that women are people." -Linkara

That's why I call myself a feminist. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Oh, and that I'd take a non-sexy but psychologically interesting woman over a Witchblade-style Barbie doll every day.

 

[icecrystal2k]

You know what? Fuck this stupid shit. As a liberal white male, I'm sick of being compelled to feel guilty for shit that isn't my fault. I'm done with it. Fuck everyone that doesn't agree.
...Cut for space, I apologize.

I mean yes, sexism is still real, racism is still real, white males still have it better off, blah blah blah... but, what the fuck do you want me to do about it? And if you don't have anything useful to add, can we please just shut the fuck up for, like, five fucking minutes? Please?

I share your sense of helplessness and anger, believe me, being liberal, white, middle-class, first-world-dwelling, but I try to keep in mind that if it doesn't get discussed, then there's no possibility of change, and that the "other side", whoever they may be, often have a lot of anger that they need to vent. I don't like when we make enemies of each other, which is what that anger and the reaction to it tends to breed, but is there any more effective way? Passive resistance? Hoping that magically things will resolve themselves to everyone's satisfaction?

I don't mean to be pedantic or confrontational. I just wanted to say that I get where you're coming from. On the other side of despair there's kind of detached acceptance, so... something to look forward to?

I do show respect to women who deserve it. However, I refuse to show respect to someone just because they're a woman.

You made your point kind of aggresively but that seems like the right attitude to adopt. It's so annoying that we're sometimes asked to give respect to women just because they're women.
They should gain and be given respect just like guys have to.

Same applies if we're asked to give respect to minorities. People preach about equality and then demand special treatment.

I'm doing it backwards, then. I respect everyone until they give me reason not to. "Giving respect" is not, to me, some kind of loss of sovereignty or powerlessness.

 

[icecrystal2k]

Sorry, all, I double-posted.

 

[Raikov]

"Feminism; the strange idea that women are people." -Linkara

That's why I call myself a feminist. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Oh, and that I'd take a non-sexy but psychologically interesting woman over a Witchblade-style Barbie doll every day.

Too bad that the word 'feminism' is polluted by complete retards who because of their bat-shit crazy ideals always is in the news.

Still, I think 'feminism' is obsolete. It should just be 'gender equality'. But I guess that the popular opinion dictates that we should pity women...

That thought smells kinda rotten, since women are now getting better deals then men here in Sweden just because of their sex. I especially love the job requirements: I was looking for a job here in Sweden, and the employer was the city of Örebro. it says in their requirements for appliers that women would have a better chance of getting the job then males, even if the male was better suited for the job, just because there is a shortage of women in that particular type of technical work.

I would definitely not call that 'gender equality'.

 

[Dexiro]

I do show respect to women who deserve it. However, I refuse to show respect to someone just because they're a woman.

You made your point kind of aggresively but that seems like the right attitude to adopt. It's so annoying that we're sometimes asked to give respect to women just because they're women.
They should gain and be given respect just like guys have to.

Same applies if we're asked to give respect to minorities. People preach about equality and then demand special treatment.

I'm doing it backwards, then. I respect everyone until they give me reason not to. "Giving respect" is not, to me, some kind of loss of sovereignty or powerlessness.

Same really, i just worded it weirdly
I'm constantly find i'm being asked to give respect to people who have already lost it though, and for me respect has to be a 2-way thing.

 

[LiquidGrape]

Where is the er.. masculinist... movement?

There isn't any because there's no need for it. As much as the chauvinist contingency wants us to think that male rights are being thrown aside to serve the "feminazi agenda"; the fact of the matter is that every step towards an egalitarian society means certain compromises for the dominant sex. Males.
Compromises which are blown out of proportion.

Now, does specific popular video games perpetuate certain sexual stereotypes?
Yes. And it's a shame the developer think it necessary to sell their product.
But I'm hopeful for the future. The medium has grown out of its infancy, and with it the criticisms applied to it.
Just the fact that there are held debates on, for example, QGBLT issues in video games is a wonderful thing.

As for the alleged sexism of appreciating a naked body; it's a relative in my opinion.
Does the image in question convey an element of humiliation? If so, it's a problem.
This applies to both sexes and especially in mainstream pornography; wherein females are subjected to the most obscene things and males are reduced to little more than disembodied limbs gushing fluids at regular intervals.
If on the other hand, the image lacks this element of degradation, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to appreciate it with sound mind.
All of us with a sexual drive objectify at a certain level. What matters is where you draw the line.

But at any rate, I'd like to quote a certain post for truth:

[HEADING=1]Both genders can be sexist, manipulative, victimizing, opportunistic, and shallow assholes.[/HEADING]

 

[CakeDragon]

At first all those joke groups on Facebook about women were funny. Now they're just irritating and some of them I find quite offensive.
However, some things like, say, working in a construction site - that's not really a job suited to a woman.

As for videogames, it is true that sex sells, as much as people hate to admit it, and developers know this. In fairness, what would your opinion be on HL2 if Alyx was really unattractive?

There are thin lines between entertainment and sexism, I think some people just like to push the boundaries a little more than others.

 

[Queen Michael]

"Feminism; the strange idea that women are people." -Linkara

That's why I call myself a feminist. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Oh, and that I'd take a non-sexy but psychologically interesting woman over a Witchblade-style Barbie doll every day.

Too bad that the word 'feminism' is polluted by complete retards who because of their bat-shit crazy ideals always is in the news.

Still, I think 'feminism' is obsolete. It should just be 'gender equality'. But I guess that the popular opinion dictates that we should pity women...

That thought smells kinda rotten, since women are now getting better deals then men here in Sweden just because of their sex. I especially love the job requirements: I was looking for a job here in Sweden, and the employer was the city of Örebro. it says in their requirements for appliers that women would have a better chance of getting the job then males, even if the male was better suited for the job, just because there is a shortage of women in that particular type of technical work.

I would definitely not call that 'gender equality'.

You've got a point there, but what one has to remember is that there usually is a prejudice against women, with employers assuming women can't perform that kind of work. Over the years, that prejudice has led to lots of competent women not getting hired just because they're women. So all that affirmative action does in this case is to stop that kind of stuff.

 

[ZephrC]

You know what? Fuck this stupid shit. As a liberal white male, I'm sick of being compelled to feel guilty for shit that isn't my fault. I'm done with it. Fuck everyone that doesn't agree.
...Cut for space, I apologize.

I mean yes, sexism is still real, racism is still real, white males still have it better off, blah blah blah... but, what the fuck do you want me to do about it? And if you don't have anything useful to add, can we please just shut the fuck up for, like, five fucking minutes? Please?

I share your sense of helplessness and anger, believe me, being liberal, white, middle-class, first-world-dwelling, but I try to keep in mind that if it doesn't get discussed, then there's no possibility of change, and that the "other side", whoever they may be, often have a lot of anger that they need to vent. I don't like when we make enemies of each other, which is what that anger and the reaction to it tends to breed, but is there any more effective way? Passive resistance? Hoping that magically things will resolve themselves to everyone's satisfaction?

I don't mean to be pedantic or confrontational. I just wanted to say that I get where you're coming from. On the other side of despair there's kind of detached acceptance, so... something to look forward to?

Thank you for being reasonable. I was a bit over the top there and I already feel kinda bad about it, but sometimes you just have to get that kind of stuff out, you know? Although, as much as I hate this bizarre impasse the world is at now, acceptance seems worse. Things can and should be better.

Sometimes I wonder if maybe one of the biggest problems really is that we're constantly making a huge deal out of this kind of stuff though. Really, it has gotten a lot better than it used to be, but progress has been stalled for decades, and I can't help but think that maybe all the talk is just redrawing those lines in the sand, and possibly we could be better off if we all just stopped pointing out who was on what side and how they may or may not be winning.

Honestly, I think America desperately needs to learn to relax a little, which is the complete opposite of what I just did... so, whoops.

 

[ZephrC]

Where is the er.. masculinist... movement?

There isn't any because there's no need for it. As much as the chauvinist contingency wants us to think that male rights are being thrown aside to serve the "feminazi agenda"; the fact of the matter is that every step towards an egalitarian society means certain compromises for the dominant sex. Males.

You know, that's not exactly true. I mean, in some ways it is, but what the feminist movement really tried to do was to allow women to take on the attitudes and roles normally associated with men, which in our society did include most of the traditional power, but men have never had a movement to allow us to take on the attitudes and roles associated with women.

And really, how can we? How do you fight for your right to not want to fight?

snip

You've got a point there, but what one has to remember is that there usually is a prejudice against women, with employers assuming women can't perform that kind of work. Over the years, that prejudice has led to lots of competent women not getting hired just because they're women. So all that affirmative action does in this case is to stop that kind of stuff.

That's the idea, but is it true? Sometimes women just aren't attracted to the same kinds of careers as men. It may be societal, but it's still true, and unlikely to change anytime soon. So in essence at some point unless men and women somehow become indistinguishable, affirmative action will be forcing women and men both into jobs they don't want in the name of equality.

Have we reached that point yet? I don't really know, but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[Raikov]

At first all those joke groups on Facebook about women were funny. Now they're just irritating and some of them I find quite offensive.
However, some things like, say, working in a construction site - that's not really a job suited to a woman.

I don't agree with this at all. Why would there by any jobs more/less suitable for either gender? I know several women who has more physically demanding and dirty jobs then I've had.

*snip*

*snip*

You've got a point there, but what one has to remember is that there usually is a prejudice against women, with employers assuming women can't perform that kind of work. Over the years, that prejudice has led to lots of competent women not getting hired just because they're women. So all that affirmative action does in this case is to stop that kind of stuff.

Yeah, but that prejudice should have died out completely about 20 years ago. I just can't fathom the idea that this kind of bullshit still exists.
And that's not really affirmative action... it would have been 20 years ago, when female discrimination was a lot more severe then it is today. Now, its called 'kvotering' (in swedish). Forcing employers to hire women/men just to even out the gender differences. And the ones complaining the most is the women. And its also a good way to reduce quality in produced goods. Maybe if this country wasn't so damn socialistic...

 

[Queen Michael]

*snip*

*snip*

You've got a point there, but what one has to remember is that there usually is a prejudice against women, with employers assuming women can't perform that kind of work. Over the years, that prejudice has led to lots of competent women not getting hired just because they're women. So all that affirmative action does in this case is to stop that kind of stuff.

Yeah, but that prejudice should have died out completely about 20 years ago. I just can't fathom the idea that this kind of bullshit still exists.
And that's not really affirmative action... it would have been 20 years ago, when female discrimination was a lot more severe then it is today. Now, its called 'kvotering' (in swedish). Forcing employers to hire women/men just to even out the gender differences. And the ones complaining the most is the women. And its also a good way to reduce quality in produced goods. Maybe if this country wasn't so damn socialistic...

Thing is, gender discirmination is still very much a real thing. Sure, women complain about it because they want to be hired because of their competence, but there's no way in Niflheim their competence is going to help them get hired as long as they're still women.

 

[Magnalian]

Yes , sexism is back (dun dun dunnn). I hate to say it, but I am getting sick of turning on a game and immediately guessing which femme fatale will be the love interest/damsel in distress. But as long as gamers don't complain, it will keep happening.

 

[Madkipz]

Billy connolly sums up feminism and men in general: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXit0FTxa1U&feature=related



"No sooner had we found the clitoris than they demanded we find their Gspot, ive met gynocologists that dont believe in it."

Billy connolly sums up demonstrating and white males stake in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWMEAURoAXs&feature=related

"and we are mercilessly picked on, white heterosexual males are the only species you can pick on without reprecussions. If we where anything else, pakistani, afgani? homosexual? the streets would be buzzling in a major riot."


George Carlin men are stupid and women are crazy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCGMInJ7jYE

"Women have allot more to put up with when it comes to life, to begin with they are weaker and as a result get slapped around, abused and raped allot. By men of course, because we are stronger, then again if women suddenly got stronger they?d be slapping around men just for the heck of it."

George Carlin, Pro life is anti women: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w15OS2PdCKo&feature=related

Luis CK Girls and women: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnDH-RXCptY&feature=fvw

?You're a woman when people come out of your vagina & step on your dreams...?
"This is the difference between girls and women, when girls go wild they show their boobs to people, When women go wild, they kill men and drown their own kids in a tub."

Luis CK with the conclution - Single people and married men: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x81M3g3zjXc&NR=1 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEMWxaJn4Ko&feature=related

Solution to the OPs problem: get married, have some children and then talk about sexism

 

[Gralian]

I think you need to take a step back and realise that video games are primarily a male dominated culture and society. This is probably due to the hyper-sexualisation of women from as early on as Lara Croft, who were created to show a strong, yet attractive woman, whereby marketing reduced her to nothing more than eye candy for commercialism.

Sex sells. It has been and probably always will be the social stigma, even more so in games. Women don't help in this department with the almighty "meh" they have whenever their husbands / boyfriends / friends discuss video games.

This is changing, however, with casual games from companies like popcap and indeed nintendo. We've got a few more female gamers, now we just need to try not to scare them off.

However, video games are no different to a football stadium for example. It's gonna have its share of females, but it's a male dominated hobby and culture and that's just the way it is. Honestly, i do not see this changing drastically. I know a couple of girls who get just as excited about popping zombie heads as i do, but really i don't think they count for the "general populace". Their humour is different, they're different to talk to than most girls you just happen to know, or someone you'd meet off the street for example. In fact, ruminate on this: Do you think that girls who discuss gaming as a hobby would be alienated by their other female friends?

I don't think we're 'recreating sexism'. I think its always been there and i think there will always be a degree of 'sexism' because of gaming's male oriented roots, but that's not necessarily a *bad* thing - they don't portray women as being brainless bimbos, they just show a little flesh now and then to push sales. A little of it is okay, but don't make it the sole focus of women's role in gaming.