The generation that recreated Sexism.
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There's a wonderful BBC 4 documentary called "Women" that I recommend to all interested! It's about the successes and failures of second-wave feminism, and whether anything has truly changed today, despite a veneer of equality.
In some ways, women make their own prisons, as they are conditioned to take on a million and one responsibilities and feel deep guilt when, say, the bathroom isn't clean and the laundry still needs to be done and of course the kids need help with their homework or want to be read to and on and on. I'm just speaking from personal experience, but most of my significant others have been much more able to say "Screw it." Men aren't trained to be the caretakers of the young, the old, the sick, the healthy, on and on, and women are. Men get to do all the photo-op chivalrous stuff, you know, protect and bask in the glory, but when grandma and the baby both need their diapers changed, nine times out of ten it's going to be a woman who's answering *that* call to glory. My tongue's stuck in my cheek.
More equality in that division of labor, and opening (usually) men's eyes to this great discrepancy, is one of the goals that I'd like feminism to achieve.
I say it's *usually* men's eyes because it can happen the other way around. As an example, in the documentary there is a stay-at-home father who is living in the usually female role of constant, exhausted caretaker while his wife is living out the traditionally masculine role of not being quite sure "what he does all day". Hint: everything. But this doesn't apply only to single-income families; when both parents work, the bulk of household tasks often still fall to the female when she returns from her day job.
Sexism doesn't have to be about ass-slapping and inappropriate comments. I would wager that there is much less of that cartoony sexism. However, sexism can also be a much more subtle indoctrination of expectations, expectations that bury the self in a deluge of responsibilities or never-ending claims on one's time and energy from external parties. Women are far more likely to be victims of that kind of identity-sucking reality than men, because men are not taught - indoctrinated - to hold everyone and everything else first and themselves dead last. Isn't being urged to sublimate yourself pretty much objectification? You become the role you serve, instead of who you are. Scantily-clad pictures of night elves are less harmful in comparison.
Just my .02!
In some ways, women make their own prisons, as they are conditioned to take on a million and one responsibilities and feel deep guilt when, say, the bathroom isn't clean and the laundry still needs to be done and of course the kids need help with their homework or want to be read to and on and on. I'm just speaking from personal experience, but most of my significant others have been much more able to say "Screw it." Men aren't trained to be the caretakers of the young, the old, the sick, the healthy, on and on, and women are. Men get to do all the photo-op chivalrous stuff, you know, protect and bask in the glory, but when grandma and the baby both need their diapers changed, nine times out of ten it's going to be a woman who's answering *that* call to glory. My tongue's stuck in my cheek.
More equality in that division of labor, and opening (usually) men's eyes to this great discrepancy, is one of the goals that I'd like feminism to achieve.
I say it's *usually* men's eyes because it can happen the other way around. As an example, in the documentary there is a stay-at-home father who is living in the usually female role of constant, exhausted caretaker while his wife is living out the traditionally masculine role of not being quite sure "what he does all day". Hint: everything. But this doesn't apply only to single-income families; when both parents work, the bulk of household tasks often still fall to the female when she returns from her day job.
Sexism doesn't have to be about ass-slapping and inappropriate comments. I would wager that there is much less of that cartoony sexism. However, sexism can also be a much more subtle indoctrination of expectations, expectations that bury the self in a deluge of responsibilities or never-ending claims on one's time and energy from external parties. Women are far more likely to be victims of that kind of identity-sucking reality than men, because men are not taught - indoctrinated - to hold everyone and everything else first and themselves dead last. Isn't being urged to sublimate yourself pretty much objectification? You become the role you serve, instead of who you are. Scantily-clad pictures of night elves are less harmful in comparison.
Just my .02!
I have to say who gives a shit? This happens to men just as much as women so I'd hardly call it sexism. There is plenty of suggest fan art out there for women and other things. You could also complain about women using their "disadvantage" to take disproportionate abouts of money from men in divorce(when divorce is not justified if it is far enough), or about the "race card".
So no I do not think we are recreating sexism in a conventional sense I just think we are in a stupid no people's land where it is still ok to hold doors open for women and they get less pay sometimes. It is either one way or the other. You can't jhave doors and stuff being held open and have equal pay as having the doors held open implies that you aren't equal you could argue that it is manners. It doesn't seem right. I'd rather women were treated the same with none of this less pay or less right nonsense but none of this opening doors crap. Fair enough helping someone anyone for that matter if they are struggling with something heavy or letting them sit down if pregnant or old but aside from that. If they are capable and able they should have to do it.
So no I do not think we are recreating sexism in a conventional sense I just think we are in a stupid no people's land where it is still ok to hold doors open for women and they get less pay sometimes. It is either one way or the other. You can't jhave doors and stuff being held open and have equal pay as having the doors held open implies that you aren't equal you could argue that it is manners. It doesn't seem right. I'd rather women were treated the same with none of this less pay or less right nonsense but none of this opening doors crap. Fair enough helping someone anyone for that matter if they are struggling with something heavy or letting them sit down if pregnant or old but aside from that. If they are capable and able they should have to do it.
Let me tell you about my Uncle Bobby.Lukirre said:
My Uncle Bobby didn't have any male role models; his father walked away from his mother after getting the shit beaten out of him one too many times. His mother was involved with the school; he's fairly certain she made sure he didn't have any male teachers. He got married to a woman just like his mother (controling, abusive, manipulitive) and ended up leaving her. Since then, he's gotten 3 DUIs, been in prison at least twice, and has been homeless even more often. He's just now starting to pick his life up, but he's in his fifties now; even he thinks it's a little too late.
I remember us talking, and him saying that he empathizes with me. "You're just like me, son." he said. "Everything bad that's ever happend in your life is because of women."
"You're wrong." I told him. "Everything horrible that's happened in my life is because people were either to afraid of the consequences to do anything to help me, or to stupid to know how to do it right. Women had nothing to do with it."
Not sure what rellavance this story has, but I thought I should put it here.
Apoliges Abound
Hmm... I find that most, or at least a good amount of games that treat women as sex objects treat everything as objects
Example: DOA, first thing's first, Jan Lee and Ryu Hyabusa are both ridiculously muscle bound, wear tight fitting clothing(In Jan Lee's case he doesn't even wear a shirt), and have no personality to speak of other then cold disregard and bad-ass determination. If sexism never existed, Christie would be viewed the exact same way, or vise-versa. the only reason this pisses people off is because there's already a preconceived debate on objectification, or at least that's what they call it
Objectification: the act of representing an abstraction as a physical thing
So you could say that... say... Samus and Ryu are both the objectified forms of the same things in different genders, inhuman levels of physical perfection and emotional detachment for the purpose of making the player feel like a bad-ass, if either gender met someone who looked like that in real life the most common responses would be "I wish I was that fit" or "I wanna fuck him/her"... or at least they should be(Note: I've never played Metroid(blasphemy, I know), so I could be wrong about Samus, but a bad example doesn't make a bad argument)
The only reason you see Henati pictures of Samus is because of the culture that surrounds her. she, as an image,(Because that's what she is, remember, she's a symbol not a character)is no more offensive then Ryu. I think the problem is, In our society(I live in the U.S, I can't speak for Japan), it's more socially acceptable for males to be sexual
I've heard tons of men bragging about having sex with loads of women, but I've heard plenty of females called whores for doing the exact same thing, WTF?!. And there in lays the problem
Yes, I know that you could argue that there is a difference between the two with one sentence DOAX, but I would argue that DOAX wouldn't exist if said problem didn't
In the end, what I'm saying is, objectification, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing, it's merely a design choice(in fighting games in particular because nobody pays attention to fighting game stories, so they rely on imagery much more to create individuality). there's nothing wrong with creating a character who's lead role is to be sexy with no personality, your not implying that women are only here to amuse us in real life, but in video games they are, just like everything else
Look at say... Miranda, Morigan, Dawn Star, Silk Fox, they're all very attractive(IMO), yet I don't find pictures of them fingering each other(I've looked). You know why, because they're people first, their games focus was on story, especially character development, so that aspect of them was overlooked(I have found some of Tali, but this is already to long so ask if you want to hear)
That's not true of Kasumi because that's what she is, an object, the games never tried to change that
And the same should be true of Ryu and Jan Lee, but it's not, that's the real problem
(The argument that it's genetic can be thrown out, know why, it's not always the case, just visit a Fan Fiction site)
No, I'm not tired of video game women amusing me, nor am I tired of males doing the same thing. What I am tiered of is people calling me a pervert for it, but what I'm more tired of is people telling me it's normal because I'm a guy, and being shocked, SHOCKED!, when the same is true in females
I'll be happy when DOAX is multi-gendered(in principle), when girls can brag about having fucked every man in the room, when everyone get's pissed off over Ryu Hyabuse sending bad messages to young females(and males, really, but that's another argument entirely) about what to expect from their future mates. When female and male gamers are split 50/50 and everyone has DOA pictures in their Pictures folder regardless of gender
THAT is equality
P.S: And you know what will happen, either everything will be sexual in games or nothing will(extreme example, I realize that not everyone will design from the same standpoint), developers will either get tired of using it as a marketing ploy because of it being so generic that nobody notices, or they'll milk it for all it's worth
Example: DOA, first thing's first, Jan Lee and Ryu Hyabusa are both ridiculously muscle bound, wear tight fitting clothing(In Jan Lee's case he doesn't even wear a shirt), and have no personality to speak of other then cold disregard and bad-ass determination. If sexism never existed, Christie would be viewed the exact same way, or vise-versa. the only reason this pisses people off is because there's already a preconceived debate on objectification, or at least that's what they call it
Objectification: the act of representing an abstraction as a physical thing
So you could say that... say... Samus and Ryu are both the objectified forms of the same things in different genders, inhuman levels of physical perfection and emotional detachment for the purpose of making the player feel like a bad-ass, if either gender met someone who looked like that in real life the most common responses would be "I wish I was that fit" or "I wanna fuck him/her"... or at least they should be(Note: I've never played Metroid(blasphemy, I know), so I could be wrong about Samus, but a bad example doesn't make a bad argument)
The only reason you see Henati pictures of Samus is because of the culture that surrounds her. she, as an image,(Because that's what she is, remember, she's a symbol not a character)is no more offensive then Ryu. I think the problem is, In our society(I live in the U.S, I can't speak for Japan), it's more socially acceptable for males to be sexual
I've heard tons of men bragging about having sex with loads of women, but I've heard plenty of females called whores for doing the exact same thing, WTF?!. And there in lays the problem
Yes, I know that you could argue that there is a difference between the two with one sentence DOAX, but I would argue that DOAX wouldn't exist if said problem didn't
In the end, what I'm saying is, objectification, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing, it's merely a design choice(in fighting games in particular because nobody pays attention to fighting game stories, so they rely on imagery much more to create individuality). there's nothing wrong with creating a character who's lead role is to be sexy with no personality, your not implying that women are only here to amuse us in real life, but in video games they are, just like everything else
Look at say... Miranda, Morigan, Dawn Star, Silk Fox, they're all very attractive(IMO), yet I don't find pictures of them fingering each other(I've looked). You know why, because they're people first, their games focus was on story, especially character development, so that aspect of them was overlooked(I have found some of Tali, but this is already to long so ask if you want to hear)
That's not true of Kasumi because that's what she is, an object, the games never tried to change that
And the same should be true of Ryu and Jan Lee, but it's not, that's the real problem
(The argument that it's genetic can be thrown out, know why, it's not always the case, just visit a Fan Fiction site)
No, I'm not tired of video game women amusing me, nor am I tired of males doing the same thing. What I am tiered of is people calling me a pervert for it, but what I'm more tired of is people telling me it's normal because I'm a guy, and being shocked, SHOCKED!, when the same is true in females
I'll be happy when DOAX is multi-gendered(in principle), when girls can brag about having fucked every man in the room, when everyone get's pissed off over Ryu Hyabuse sending bad messages to young females(and males, really, but that's another argument entirely) about what to expect from their future mates. When female and male gamers are split 50/50 and everyone has DOA pictures in their Pictures folder regardless of gender
THAT is equality
P.S: And you know what will happen, either everything will be sexual in games or nothing will(extreme example, I realize that not everyone will design from the same standpoint), developers will either get tired of using it as a marketing ploy because of it being so generic that nobody notices, or they'll milk it for all it's worth
I'm just going to have to argue on this point. Young men are constantly being taught that their self-worth is wrapped up in what they can provide to their mate and their kids. Men are expected to be chained to a desk until they drop dead. Men are expected to know and provide handyman skills around the home. The man is expected to respond to that mysterious noise in the middle of the night. We have to prove our worth with the best jobs possible to earn as much money as we can no matter the stress on ourselves because that's all we're good for.icecrystal2k said:
And we have to do it with stoic determination. Can't complain, can't show emotions, can't let the stress show because that's unmanly and no one likes an unmanly man. Especially women.
To top it all off then we relax at home, turn on some prime-time tv and witness sitcoms and programs denegrating men and husbands by portraying them as infantile and ineffectual while their brilliant and exceptional wives show them up and critisize them every episode.
Not to say that there isn't a fair amount of social pressure on women, I know there is. But don't just assume that men are raised to be without responsiblities and think of themselves first.
To start with, I think the proportion of parents who teach their sons THAT would be in the minority, but the point I actually wanted to respond to was "Can't complain, can't show emotions, can't let the stress show because that's unmanly and no one likes an unmanly man. Especially women." To be perfectly honest it is a bane of most womens lives that their male friends/partners/whatever refuse to drop their 'I'm a big manly man I don't have emotions' charade- we know you have them, and we know what you're doing is a matter of personal pride enforced by other guys, not women. Most girls/women breathe a big sigh of relief if a guy will actually express their emotions in a normal/healthy way (we're talking the mean here- whats normal, not a typical pms psycho ***** extreme or stony face extreme either) and they will respond positively to it 99% of the time. Most women also get very tired of the whole 'manly man' thing too and prefer people just be normal and comfortable with themselves, and don't need a big alpha man to lead the way in every situation.JaredXE said:
Just saying, I think your perception in what most women like about guys is quite skewed, I'm sure there are a small minority who enforce the whole 'big man' thing but from what I've seen, it is usually other guys holding them up to these standards, women are much more forgiving of emotional behaviour, and many girls find quieter guys not too concerned about the repercussions of sharing their feelings more attractive anyway. We like to know what others are feeling, its part of our nature.
Actually women are paid less as they are less valuable than male counterparts. If a woman chooses to concentrate on raising a family then she have have maternity leave, and countless days off. Though that is said in the most general of terms, I could go on and on, I had to reasreach the friggin gender pay gap for an entire year.Blindswordmaster said:
And slighty off topic: Has anyone seen the gears of war 3 trailer, where a perfectly clean, attractive blonde woman fights of locust in an armour bikini?
Both genders have to face up to expectations of them that have been set, in some form or another, by cultural forces that, despite the so-called "modernity" and "near-equality" of the present, still remains a significant force that contrains people. Sure, parents may not teach their children specifically about how things "ought to be", but the children do pick it up from other venues, be it TV, friends, or whatever. Ultimately both genders find themselves facing a sort of "mould" as to what they ought to be expected to do.
The way I see it... is that the problem is that if one sticks within this old "mould", then they tend to become unhappy about their circumstances, be it a man forced to have some kind of "manly" image or a woman who finds herself cleaning everything in a house. On the other hand, significant deviations from these "mould's" often tend to lead others to look upon such people as "unusual" or, more often, "wrong". The balance basically seems to be between Unhappiness with one's forced characteristics or the scorn of one's neighbors and society.
Going from that, i'd call sexism a problem for both genders, but they manifest themselves in different ways. The real problem, in the end, is these cultural ideas that seem to push people towards being "programmed" to be a certain way and the struggles and anxieties that come with it. Only by breaking up these ideas of what people "ought to be" can a greater sense of equality occur. The day-to-day business will be taken care of then...
...If ever.
That's just my opinion though.
The way I see it... is that the problem is that if one sticks within this old "mould", then they tend to become unhappy about their circumstances, be it a man forced to have some kind of "manly" image or a woman who finds herself cleaning everything in a house. On the other hand, significant deviations from these "mould's" often tend to lead others to look upon such people as "unusual" or, more often, "wrong". The balance basically seems to be between Unhappiness with one's forced characteristics or the scorn of one's neighbors and society.
Going from that, i'd call sexism a problem for both genders, but they manifest themselves in different ways. The real problem, in the end, is these cultural ideas that seem to push people towards being "programmed" to be a certain way and the struggles and anxieties that come with it. Only by breaking up these ideas of what people "ought to be" can a greater sense of equality occur. The day-to-day business will be taken care of then...
...If ever.
That's just my opinion though.
I haven't seen much sexism recently unless it just isn't too blatant. Guys are idiots and more vocally sexual so you do hear about women getting treated badly sometimes, but on the other hand i always see women being treated a lot better than men.
You could say that men are being given a bad image through stereotypes just as women are, we're always being painted as sex orientated and untrustworthy, i don't think i know anyone who's like that though.
I swear though, a lot of teenage girls are bringing sexism on themselves, it's like they take pride in stereotypes. And however feminists justify being sexist, just... urgh.
You could say that men are being given a bad image through stereotypes just as women are, we're always being painted as sex orientated and untrustworthy, i don't think i know anyone who's like that though.
I swear though, a lot of teenage girls are bringing sexism on themselves, it's like they take pride in stereotypes. And however feminists justify being sexist, just... urgh.
haha sexism has existed for centuries, our generation hasn't created it at all, not in the slightest. Ancient Sumer was one of the few ancient civilizations that allowed for women to achieve higher authority, but many civilizations regarded women as second class citizens, and at it's worst, property. The issue of sexism has existed for so long through so many different cultures, that is why it is so difficult to shake to this day. Honestly I doubt there will ever be any real manner of equality for the genders, things will get better but will not be ideal. Not to say things are horrible, there are just a lot of dumb double standards, especially regarding aspects of sexuality as you have mentioned.
Though the art of scantily clad women, uh.. most of that is just dumb fan service that has nothing to do with liberation of sexuality in females. But honestly, I could care less about that, I care more about actual interpersonal relationships between people.
Though the art of scantily clad women, uh.. most of that is just dumb fan service that has nothing to do with liberation of sexuality in females. But honestly, I could care less about that, I care more about actual interpersonal relationships between people.
Women are more flexible than men, but in turn they are more weak.
Thus making the "ridiculous clad armor" useful.
As it is lightweight and gives them the advantage of moving easier, while still covering up some vital parts.
The men, however, are more strong but not as flexible. They have the advantage of being able to hold more defense without giving a movement/weight impairment that a female would get in that amount of armor.
That is my theory, at least. I think it makes whole lot of sense if you think about it.
Thus making the "ridiculous clad armor" useful.
As it is lightweight and gives them the advantage of moving easier, while still covering up some vital parts.
The men, however, are more strong but not as flexible. They have the advantage of being able to hold more defense without giving a movement/weight impairment that a female would get in that amount of armor.
That is my theory, at least. I think it makes whole lot of sense if you think about it.
Funny, I was just reading an article from Escapist Issue 17 that dealt with this topic. There were no comments (probably since it was just Issue 17 and the Escapist didn't have much of a subscriber base back then) so I decided to get the ball rolling. Maybe if I put it in this thread someone will actually look at it.
1: Over six feet tall.
2: A skilled fighter of some sort.
3: Absolutely fearless.
4: Buff. Six pack abs are mandatory (unless maybe you're a dwarf).
5: Handsome, in one of three flavors: Generic, Rugged, or Bishounen
6: Either great hair (Dante) or no hair (Kratos)
The issue here is that there has always been a double-standard concerning the depiction of fictional characters in media. I often find myself feeling kind of down when I look at myself in the mirror, and my gradually widening gut, thinning hair, scraggly beard, and face that I need to be on antibiotics to keep the zits off of, and I can't help but feel the depiction of men in games puts a little bit of a damper on my self-esteem as well. And then I remember that I'm a pacifistic weenie-man who has lost both of the two fights he's ever been in and quit karate because he couldn't deal with the physical demands and I start to feel even worse.
But then I snap out of it and realize that making judgments about who I am and what I should be based upon works of fiction is absurd and go on about my business.
Because Princess Peach disguised herself as Luigi and threatened to suicide-bomb the Koopa Kids.
Fucking... AWESOME!!!
Point being, I like female characters a lot better when they're kicking ass and wearing overalls, and not just waiting around to be saved by fat plumbers. I liked how in FFVII, instead of trying to solve that stupid barrel puzzle you could just tell Aeris to fight off the Shinra troopers and she'd do it. I like how Shanoa from Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia is one cool chick who kills Dracula and doesn't afraid of anything.
So yeah, I hate that too. But you know what I hate even more? The fact that the love interests of every single strong female protagonist are always:
1: A jerk, or the bad guy who doesn't really care about her or is just using her.
2: Dead, before the story even begins.
3: Dead, sometime during the story.
4: Generic action hero guy (See above list).
5: A nice guy, who's love will always be unrequited because nice guys don't get laid and strong female protagonist would rather bonk #1.
6: Any of the above categories, except female.
A prime example of this is the aforementioned Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia, where this happens:
Ugh... I hate 5 most of all, because it's kind of true.
The go-to counterargument for this is the typical male video game character (with the possible exception of Mario) is:Junaid Alam said:
1: Over six feet tall.
2: A skilled fighter of some sort.
3: Absolutely fearless.
4: Buff. Six pack abs are mandatory (unless maybe you're a dwarf).
5: Handsome, in one of three flavors: Generic, Rugged, or Bishounen
6: Either great hair (Dante) or no hair (Kratos)
The issue here is that there has always been a double-standard concerning the depiction of fictional characters in media. I often find myself feeling kind of down when I look at myself in the mirror, and my gradually widening gut, thinning hair, scraggly beard, and face that I need to be on antibiotics to keep the zits off of, and I can't help but feel the depiction of men in games puts a little bit of a damper on my self-esteem as well. And then I remember that I'm a pacifistic weenie-man who has lost both of the two fights he's ever been in and quit karate because he couldn't deal with the physical demands and I start to feel even worse.
But then I snap out of it and realize that making judgments about who I am and what I should be based upon works of fiction is absurd and go on about my business.
Anyone remember the old Super Mario World comics that were serialized in Nintendo Power magazine starting right after the SNES came out? I used to love those. Know why?PinkAngelKitty said:
Because Princess Peach disguised herself as Luigi and threatened to suicide-bomb the Koopa Kids.
Fucking... AWESOME!!!
Point being, I like female characters a lot better when they're kicking ass and wearing overalls, and not just waiting around to be saved by fat plumbers. I liked how in FFVII, instead of trying to solve that stupid barrel puzzle you could just tell Aeris to fight off the Shinra troopers and she'd do it. I like how Shanoa from Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia is one cool chick who kills Dracula and doesn't afraid of anything.
So yeah, I hate that too. But you know what I hate even more? The fact that the love interests of every single strong female protagonist are always:
1: A jerk, or the bad guy who doesn't really care about her or is just using her.
2: Dead, before the story even begins.
3: Dead, sometime during the story.
4: Generic action hero guy (See above list).
5: A nice guy, who's love will always be unrequited because nice guys don't get laid and strong female protagonist would rather bonk #1.
6: Any of the above categories, except female.
A prime example of this is the aforementioned Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia, where this happens:
Albus, who at the end we find has always had feelings for Shanoa, sacrifices his soul to prevent her from being consumed by Dominus, after trying to use Dominus himself and being taken over by Dracula and having Shanoa kill him. And it also means that, once again, female protagonist can't kill the Big Bad by herself. Not and live anyway.
Ugh... I hate 5 most of all, because it's kind of true.
Ur... are you only referring to the aspect regarding women in scantily clad armor. Just have to say that the concept of women being more 'flexible' really isn't true since one's flexibility relies completely on what you do and not what gender you are. Though, it is true that women often have stronger legs where as men have a stronger upper body strength. Plus there's the difference in the center of balance. But for the most part, men and women have the capability of being fleet footed or tanks. However, this would not mean that bikini armor is a good idea at all... ever.iLikeHippos said:
First of all, for women that are more endowed, it would be almost required to have proper support, and possibly even bound to allow for easier movement without major discomfort. Secondly, vitals need to be protected in some way, a bit of leather or thick fabric is still better than bare skin and may allow just as much movement. Of course, there's is also the factor of, what one is doing or fighting against and what skills they have.
I have no problem with pinups, if you want to draw bikini armor babes or look at them, that's fine by my book... but it's just not practical armor if you want to get right down to it.
I'm not certain the phenonenom of games having extremely attractive, sexy, and scantily clad characters is really about sexism AGAINST either gender, male or female. I'm a girl, and I'm rarely offended by a female character, no matter how extremely she may be portrayed. Sometimes I laugh, especially when looking at their clothing and wondering just how comfortable/practical it is, but I'm never offended by their looks. As a student doing Games Design and Digital Art, I think most of these characters look the way they do because they are more fun to draw and model, and because the artists are trying to create a sense of a games style (think about it, fantasy is easier the sggest if the chick has very pale skin and floaty clothes, gritty sci-fi is better with a guy with big muscles, armouring and a BIG gun).
As for the portrayal of both women and men in the STORY, well, I think that is far less easy to forgive. Females are so often portrayed as helpless and stupid, and men are so often portrayed as emotionless and butch. That is laziness on the part of the writers, I believe. Sure, the characters don't need to talk much in a game, and in a game where the main focus is on shooting things until they don't get back up, maybe its silly to suggest that the main guy has other interests like, say, fine wine or modifying cars, but I think games would generally be all the better for having men and women with wider, deeper characterizations. I would be more involved and probably more intent on avoiding the main character's death. Also, I can see so many more opportunities for humour!
Thanks for these discussions. I want to design games professionally one day, and knowing what gamers want is great.
As for the portrayal of both women and men in the STORY, well, I think that is far less easy to forgive. Females are so often portrayed as helpless and stupid, and men are so often portrayed as emotionless and butch. That is laziness on the part of the writers, I believe. Sure, the characters don't need to talk much in a game, and in a game where the main focus is on shooting things until they don't get back up, maybe its silly to suggest that the main guy has other interests like, say, fine wine or modifying cars, but I think games would generally be all the better for having men and women with wider, deeper characterizations. I would be more involved and probably more intent on avoiding the main character's death. Also, I can see so many more opportunities for humour!
Thanks for these discussions. I want to design games professionally one day, and knowing what gamers want is great.
Our generation may be contributing to sexism, but at least our 'version' is vastly better then what it could be.
It seems to me, who has roots in both the 'nerd' cultures and the 'rockabilly/get insanely drunk while trying to impress women by fistfighting' cultures, that social gamers of any media (Magic: The Gathering, Tabletop, Roleplay etc.) have a much greater respect for women overall.
The Rockabilly guys still seems like a 50:s relic, where you use women as decoration for your giant gas-guzzling Chevrolet.
Most sexism seems rooted in the way that the vast majority of 'men' prefers their women to be, and how they talk about women with other 'men'. The majority of male population want their women to be hot and stupid, a decoration. The minority (which in Sweden is nerds) just wants someone to talk to, and usually don't really care about how they look.
This is a problem for both genders, and it is your own responsibility to make a difference. Sure, we all want to be popular, but at what cost? Would women rather be judged by the men around you based solely on your looks? Would guys want to be judged by whether or not they own a car?
Or do you prefer to be whatever you want, and be respected for it?
I could be either a 'raggare' (swedish for rockabilly guy) or a geek, but going in just one direction to be popular with either side is not my choice. I just go with both, which means that I can drink heavily, make alot of noice in any Oldsmobile, and dance, but I can also play PC games at a competitive level, and beat your ass in Warhammer 40K, and even enjoy locally produced musicals performed by happy amateurs.
Sexism can only be 'cured' when any person can have any job, hobby and sexual preference and have equal respect for it, and I think we're actually moving in the right direction.
Sorry for the wall of text.
It seems to me, who has roots in both the 'nerd' cultures and the 'rockabilly/get insanely drunk while trying to impress women by fistfighting' cultures, that social gamers of any media (Magic: The Gathering, Tabletop, Roleplay etc.) have a much greater respect for women overall.
The Rockabilly guys still seems like a 50:s relic, where you use women as decoration for your giant gas-guzzling Chevrolet.
Most sexism seems rooted in the way that the vast majority of 'men' prefers their women to be, and how they talk about women with other 'men'. The majority of male population want their women to be hot and stupid, a decoration. The minority (which in Sweden is nerds) just wants someone to talk to, and usually don't really care about how they look.
This is a problem for both genders, and it is your own responsibility to make a difference. Sure, we all want to be popular, but at what cost? Would women rather be judged by the men around you based solely on your looks? Would guys want to be judged by whether or not they own a car?
Or do you prefer to be whatever you want, and be respected for it?
I could be either a 'raggare' (swedish for rockabilly guy) or a geek, but going in just one direction to be popular with either side is not my choice. I just go with both, which means that I can drink heavily, make alot of noice in any Oldsmobile, and dance, but I can also play PC games at a competitive level, and beat your ass in Warhammer 40K, and even enjoy locally produced musicals performed by happy amateurs.
Sexism can only be 'cured' when any person can have any job, hobby and sexual preference and have equal respect for it, and I think we're actually moving in the right direction.
Sorry for the wall of text.
When playing games, I really don't think about the sexist angle so much, considering I'm there to have fun.
In society, though, we have a strange thing happening to us. It isn't the misrepresentation of the average woman in magazines or the males(Trust me, we have some pretty whacky image needs, ourselves) but rather this rampant need for equality itself breeding sexism.
I've always said that the easiest way to equality is to forget about it. If we could simply move on and stop caring about these issues, they could be resolved. After all, if nobody gives a shit-TRULY nobody-then it is no longer an issue. If you're male, I see you as a potential friend and lover. As a female, I see you as a potential friend, lover and mate because you're the female of our species. The only difference I acknowledge is the potential for offspring, which will not change the way I treat you.
We'll probably never reach the ideal point of perfect "equality" if we continue to make the attempt to do so. When you have one side for an issue it provokes the side against.
I truly believe that if we cease seeking, it will come to us.
In society, though, we have a strange thing happening to us. It isn't the misrepresentation of the average woman in magazines or the males(Trust me, we have some pretty whacky image needs, ourselves) but rather this rampant need for equality itself breeding sexism.
I've always said that the easiest way to equality is to forget about it. If we could simply move on and stop caring about these issues, they could be resolved. After all, if nobody gives a shit-TRULY nobody-then it is no longer an issue. If you're male, I see you as a potential friend and lover. As a female, I see you as a potential friend, lover and mate because you're the female of our species. The only difference I acknowledge is the potential for offspring, which will not change the way I treat you.
We'll probably never reach the ideal point of perfect "equality" if we continue to make the attempt to do so. When you have one side for an issue it provokes the side against.
I truly believe that if we cease seeking, it will come to us.
Yes on both sides. Want to have fun some time go out with a girl and ask if she willing to go Dutch. How about the fact Wife abuse to husband is brushed off. Yet My husband beat me is all over the TV.
Yes it's there but women just care more I guess.
Yes it's there but women just care more I guess.