The generation that recreated Sexism.

[RicoADF]

To be honest I think society discriminates against males as well, after all the fact there is some 'hot' girl in most games for the player to drewl over is as much an insult to males (by saying that all we want is a girl with little or no cloths off, weather we have a partner or not) as it is to females.
Personally I stay away from games that pull that crap.

 

[Kagim]

Also consider sexual harassment from the other point of view. Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified? Are you female? You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way, just like how white people will never understand what it means to be racially discriminated against on a large scale. While I'll admit that there are those who take advantage of the system, I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment.

I know how it feels to be objectified. Being treated like shit because I'm not a sexy male. Being treated like shit for the way you look is just as bad as being treated special for your looks.

I'm still treated like an ugly piece of trash. She was treated like a fuck toy. I think i understand what its like to be treated like an object.

No, I'm not calling you out. I'm not trying to be jerk to you. I'm just trying to get across that being hit on for being attractive is the same as being treated like shit for not being attractive.

In the end you still feel like nothing more then an object.

Sexual harassment is not solely about being "hit on". In my case, the problem was extremely offensive jokes that made me extremely uncomfortable.

Then replace hit on with offensive jokes.

ok so... what's your point? That you feel equally put out because you're ugly? Even then... whats your point? That we should just suck it up?

That I'm sick of sexism being treated like something that only happens to females. That's something people seem to forget.

"You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way"
Are you saying that being mistreated based on me not being the social standard of male is not as bad as a women being mistreated for not being the social standard of beauty? Can they even be compared?

"Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified"

Who are you to judge? Why is you hearing offensive jokes that make you uncomfortable worse then me being treated like shit because I can't be the kind of man that's shown on TV and in music?

"I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment."

I have gone to school with shallow women and it was a truly awful environment as well.

My point?

That women don't know what its like for men anymore then we know what it's like for you.

Until that gets through peoples heads were going to be stuck here. We are not going to move forward. Not until people realize that its not MEN or WOMEN but single PEOPLE making life suck for others nothing will change.

 

[DefunctTheory]

SNIP

A google search for women magazine reveals eight magazines (On the first page alone), for women, that use sexy women on the cover. Add to that 8 Ebony, and I have 9 magazines off the top of my head that use the outrageously thin female form as advertisement (And I have a dick damn it, why do I know this?)

Civil Abuse: I honestly doubt that, but I'll take your word for it.

Rape: The argument was not about if men raped women, but how ridiculously skewed the law is against men. Obviously, real rapist should have their dicks stapled to the wall: and women who lie about rape should be prosecuted. But they aren't because the government is afraid that real rape charges will diminish. So, basically, men get screwed, women get off Scott free.

Harassment Laws: By weak compass, I mean any female can complain about anything: ANYTHING. The law is defined as 'what makes her offended.' Hell, hot dogs remind her of the one time her boyfriend whipped his dick out in 8th grade and she ran away screaming. No more hot dogs. Were do you draw the line between 'this is honestly offensive' and 'grow up and stop crying?'

Obviously, that's an extreme example, but I think you get my point

I've seen many a man screwed over by divorce law. But they were all military men, so I'll concede that maybe its just the military bias I witnessed (And that is there without a doubt).

Women still has ridiculous odds when it comes to custody.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

To be honest our society is as sexist as any society before. And both genders are to blame not just one. In the specific case of women sexual objetification its man's fault because we indeed are driven by hormones as our hormone cycle goes from orgasm to orgasm with hormone levels boosting as soon as the resolution period stops, wich means a few hours in average of low hormones to the rest of the time with them boosting sky high, while woman just have hormonal spike a few days around ovulation and the rest of the month in average to lower levels.

It's also women fault because yes despite the complains about how woman are portrayed by man, they often (usually actually at night) don't present themselves in a very different manner, if any different at all.

 

[RebelRising]

It's not that I'm too lazy to make my own wall-of-text argument (okay, I am, but it's nearly midnight where I live, so shut up), but both sides have made strong points, and now it's just nauseating back-and-forth.

In conclusion:

[HEADING=1]Both genders can be sexist, manipulative, victimizing, opportunistic, and shallow assholes.[/HEADING]

It's not that hard, people.

 

[Hurray Forums]

uh.. no. As I stated, it's a comparison between same or similar responsibilities and workload.

Feel free to link sources to this, as every single "wage gap" study I've seen that brings up this "70 cents per dollar" statistic was comparing apples to oranges, IE women as a whole working full time versus men as a whole working full time, not men and women working at the same exact job for the same exact amount of time. http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392 supports some of the original claims I made.

"Those who still cite women's 76 cents for every male dollar as evidence of sexism fail to take into account the underlying role of personal choice. The "wage gap" is not so much about employers discriminating against women as about women making discriminating choices in the labor market."

"Women make different choices, and those choices affect how they work. Women often place more importance on their relationships - caring for children, parents, spouses, etc. - than on their careers. A study by the Center for Policy Alternatives and Lifetime television found that 71 percent of women prefer jobs with more flexibility and benefits than jobs with higher wages, and nearly 85 percent of women offered flexible work arrangements by their employers have taken advantage of this opportunity."

"When women behave in the workplace as men do, the wage gap between them is small. June O'Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found that among people ages 27 to 33 who have never had a child, women's earnings approach 98 percent of men's. Women who hold positions and have skills and experience similar to those of men face wage disparities of less than 10 percent, and many are within a couple of points. Claims of unequal pay almost always involve comparing apples and oranges."

 

[Kagim]

It's not that I'm too lazy to make my own wall-of-text argument, but both sides have made strong points, and now it's just nauseating back-and-forth.

In conclusion:

[HEADING=1]Both genders can be sexist, manipulative, victimizing, opportunistic, and shallow assholes.[/HEADING]

It's not that hard, people.

/thread please.

 

[The_Healer]

Well seeing women in such poses animated stems from actual women permitting themselves to be represented thus, obviously not everyone feels like they are being discriminated against.

And it can't be all that bad when they actually have a proper established word and movement.

Where is the er.. masculinist... movement?

 

[Velcro Man]

I Have to point something out
Sexism is necessary for future generations to be born. If a guy where to treat and act around a girl the same way we do guys, nobody would ever get laid. So sure there is some objectification of females (or a lot) but its because we cant live without you and it kinda pisses us off. So let us make fart jokes talk about doing manly things with out shooting us down and we will be on the road to less sexism in the world (if thats what you want)

 

[PinkAngelKitty]

Also consider sexual harassment from the other point of view. Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified? Are you female? You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way, just like how white people will never understand what it means to be racially discriminated against on a large scale. While I'll admit that there are those who take advantage of the system, I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment.

I know how it feels to be objectified. Being treated like shit because I'm not a sexy male. Being treated like shit for the way you look is just as bad as being treated special for your looks.

I'm still treated like an ugly piece of trash. She was treated like a fuck toy. I think i understand what its like to be treated like an object.

No, I'm not calling you out. I'm not trying to be jerk to you. I'm just trying to get across that being hit on for being attractive is the same as being treated like shit for not being attractive.

In the end you still feel like nothing more then an object.

Sexual harassment is not solely about being "hit on". In my case, the problem was extremely offensive jokes that made me extremely uncomfortable.

Then replace hit on with offensive jokes.

ok so... what's your point? That you feel equally put out because you're ugly? Even then... whats your point? That we should just suck it up?

That I'm sick of sexism being treated like something that only happens to females. That's something people seem to forget.

"You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way"
Are you saying that being mistreated based on me not being the social standard of male is not as bad as a women being mistreated for not being the social standard of beauty? Can they even be compared?

"Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified"

Who are you to judge? Why is you hearing offensive jokes that make you uncomfortable worse then me being treated like shit because I can't be the kind of man that's shown on TV and in music?

"I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment."

I have gone to school with shallow women and it was a truly awful environment as well.

My point?

That women don't know what its like for men anymore then we know what it's like for you.

Until that gets through peoples heads were going to be stuck here. We are not going to move forward. Not until people realize that its not MEN or WOMEN but single PEOPLE making life suck for others nothing will change.

I wish you had just said that in the first place. :|

 

[Lukirre]

A google search for women magazine reveals eight magazines, for women, that use sexy women on the cover. Add to that 8 Ebony, and I have 9 magazines off the top of my head that use the outrageously thin female form as advertisement (And I have a dick damn it, why do I know this?)

Civil Abuse: I honestly doubt that, but I'll take your word for it.

Rape: The argument was not about if men raped women, but how ridiculously skewed the law is against men. Obviously, real rapist should have their dicks stapled to the wall: and women who lie about rape should be prosecuted. But they aren't because the government is afraid that real rape charges will diminish. So, basically, men get screwed, women get off Scott free.

Harassment Laws: By weak compass, I mean any female can complain about anything: ANYTHING. The law is defined as 'what makes her offended.' Hell, hot dogs remind her of the one time her boyfriend whipped his dick out in 8th grade and she ran away screaming. No more hot dogs. Were do you draw the line between 'this is honestly offensive' and 'grow up and stop crying?'

Obviously, that's and extreme example, but I think you get my point

I've seen many a man screwed over by divorce law. But they were all military men, so I'll concede that maybe its just the military bias I witnessed (And that is there without a doubt).

Women still has ridiculous odds when it comes to custody.

Rape laws: I can't really argue anything further, except try to remind you that the laws go both ways and I admit are a double edged sword.

Harassment Laws: I think it's a bit of a stereotype that as soon as a woman complains the government jumps out and fights for their right to have that removed. I know women who have tried to complain about certain things, and the general public/government just told them to slag off. I mean, as was mentioned before, a lot of women railed against porn. And as all men know, porn still exists.

And like I said, I've seen women get screwed over by divorce law.

I don't know what else to say about custody laws.

 

[JaredXE]

Women are still paid less in the work force than man. For every dollar a man makes doing a job, a woman doing the same job will only make 71 cents.

That statistic is a load of bullocks being taken out of context. The wage gap is NOT women and men getting paid differently doing the same job with the same experience, the wage gap has to do with things like women generally choosing lower paying jobs IE nurse over doctor, liberal arts major over engineer, less experience, working less hours since they are often times the primary caretaker in a household etc. Discrimination in pay based solely on sex is illegal (or at least it is in more developed countries)and is basically a big sign saying "Please sue me for all my money"(and that's generally what happens).

uh.. no. As I stated, it's a comparison between same or similar responsibilities and workload. Women are generally choosing lower paying jobs. Do you honestly believe that? They aren't offered the opportunity for higher paying jobs because employers expect them to run off and get pregnant and need maternity leave. Further more, a man and woman go to a job interview. The man gets hired over the women. The woman tries to sue for sexual discrimination. The employer shrugs it off, saying the interview went better and he was more qualified. Case closed. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean people don't still do it all the time.

Actually, yes I would believe it because it's true. Statistically women favor different jobs than men do. A man is more likely to choose to go into a finance or accounting position in a company while a woman will choose Human Resources or Public Relations gigs. It's not because they don't get offered a finance position, it's that they don't choose that field. Priorities and skills sets differ between men and women. Women statistically show up later, leave earlier and take more sick leave and vacations then the men in the same company. Why? Because women tend to choose a more balanced family life then most men do. The 71 cents bit is an old and fraudulent statement(nowadays anyway) perpetuated by Women's Studies classes.

Why do more women choose to become nurses than doctors? They get the same MCAT test as the men do, so the opportunity is still there, and it's certainly not because the medical field is closed to women by a 'glass ceiling'.

Also, men choose hazardous jobs WAY more than women do, and danger brings bigger paychecks but more loss of life. Again, priorities.

 

[bubba145]

not really re creating it just bringing the inside part of it out and sweeping the name under the rug,

 

[Kagim]

Also consider sexual harassment from the other point of view. Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified? Are you female? You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way, just like how white people will never understand what it means to be racially discriminated against on a large scale. While I'll admit that there are those who take advantage of the system, I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment.

I know how it feels to be objectified. Being treated like shit because I'm not a sexy male. Being treated like shit for the way you look is just as bad as being treated special for your looks.

I'm still treated like an ugly piece of trash. She was treated like a fuck toy. I think i understand what its like to be treated like an object.

No, I'm not calling you out. I'm not trying to be jerk to you. I'm just trying to get across that being hit on for being attractive is the same as being treated like shit for not being attractive.

In the end you still feel like nothing more then an object.

Sexual harassment is not solely about being "hit on". In my case, the problem was extremely offensive jokes that made me extremely uncomfortable.

Then replace hit on with offensive jokes.

ok so... what's your point? That you feel equally put out because you're ugly? Even then... whats your point? That we should just suck it up?

That I'm sick of sexism being treated like something that only happens to females. That's something people seem to forget.

"You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way"
Are you saying that being mistreated based on me not being the social standard of male is not as bad as a women being mistreated for not being the social standard of beauty? Can they even be compared?

"Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified"

Who are you to judge? Why is you hearing offensive jokes that make you uncomfortable worse then me being treated like shit because I can't be the kind of man that's shown on TV and in music?

"I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment."

I have gone to school with shallow women and it was a truly awful environment as well.

My point?

That women don't know what its like for men anymore then we know what it's like for you.

Until that gets through peoples heads were going to be stuck here. We are not going to move forward. Not until people realize that its not MEN or WOMEN but single PEOPLE making life suck for others nothing will change.

I wish you had just said that in the first place. :|

The lines i quoted bothered me. I tend to get defensive now. So i will offer my apologies to any offense i may have made. The whole sexism thing is touchy for me. I have had two teachers in my high school life that pretty much stopped short of saying "You deserve to be treated like trash because you had the audicity not to be born a female"

... So yes, i apologize. I get angry about these things quickly. With that i head to bed. My fiancee is going to throw things at me if i hold up bedtime any later.

 

[jords]

Women are still paid less in the work force than man. For every dollar a man makes doing a job, a woman doing the same job will only make 71 cents.

That statistic is a load of bullocks being taken out of context. The wage gap is NOT women and men getting paid differently doing the same job with the same experience, the wage gap has to do with things like women generally choosing lower paying jobs IE nurse over doctor, liberal arts major over engineer, less experience, working less hours since they are often times the primary caretaker in a household etc. Discrimination in pay based solely on sex is illegal (or at least it is in more developed countries)and is basically a big sign saying "Please sue me for all my money"(and that's generally what happens).

uh.. no. As I stated, it's a comparison between same or similar responsibilities and workload. Women are generally choosing lower paying jobs. Do you honestly believe that? They aren't offered the opportunity for higher paying jobs because employers expect them to run off and get pregnant and need maternity leave. Further more, a man and woman go to a job interview. The man gets hired over the women. The woman tries to sue for sexual discrimination. The employer shrugs it off, saying the interview went better and he was more qualified. Case closed. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean people don't still do it all the time.

I'm at university here in New Zealand, and my university (University of auckland) is approx 55% female. However, our student association (used to be union) still has a Women's rights officer and no Men's rights officer even though men are now a minority. They justify this with the "Women graduates earn less" argument.

I'm doing engineering - my year is 30% female, and that is with, again, a women's engineering support network funded by the university etc. A similar percentage holds over other more technical degrees eg science (although I don't have exact figures). So, much of the women are doing arts and commerce. I have a friend doing history and classics, there are 2 males out of c.25-30 for his tutorials. Of course, the plural of anecdote is not data, but I don't have access to any on the gender balance in all the degrees. Strangely, I don't think there is a "men in arts" support group funded by the university - i wonder why?

Another data point : Graduates from science, engineering, law, medical earn more on average upon graduation than commerce, and much more than arts. See where I'm going with this?

When you can produce data that shows that there is a statistically significant difference between salary on graduation for men and women doing the same specialization of same degree, corrected for hours worked and overseas transfers accepted etc, then I will be more inclined to believe that sexism is still an issue.

However, it is my understanding that the differences between male and female wages can be attributed to a combination of differing degree and work choices, men being, on average, more willing to do dangerous and physically demanding work. There are also other factors such as men, on average, being more willing to move overseas for jobs. There probably also is some sexism in that figure, but it's not the main reason.

 

[Pokenator]

Here is my opinion on the points you raised initially followed by my general opinion about the topic. (its quite an essay sorry, I got carried away, but this is something I spend a fair bit of time thinking about but get berated by my male house-mates for flaming 'hot women')

1- Females in games- I think this is purely as a result of designing games for a target audience, which, while there are lots of female gamers, the majority of gamers (especially serious gamers) still remains to be male. I'm a bit of an RPG nut, and I love the idea of my character being an idealized self (this is more the case for the customizable characters you get in RPGs) who happens to be in a world where you can be a hero and go on grand adventures etc without the responsibilities of life (job etc) or any real risk of injury (if your char dies, you just load). Where I'm going with all this is most gamers are males, and so it would make sense that most game characters would be male, sometimes with the 'perfect (though unrealistic, personality as well as physical) female' side sick / rescuee etc, I think that would stoke most guys egos. Likewise, most main male characters are also unrealistically buff. The fan art is just an extension of this, and possibly that of horny artists (as there is plenty of non sexual fan art).

2- Why are females objectified? Well, because most of us like it. The majority of girls do not have a very high self esteem, they LOVE it when they get attention, especially attention from males (as long as it is positive and not creepy). What is the easiest way to get attention- being intelligent takes effort, having a skill takes time...- the easiest way for most girls to get guaranteed attention is to flaunt their physical assets (you can't tell someone is a mathematical genius or the the worlds best artist just by looking at them). Sometimes this is done in an obvious way, dressing slutty, sometimes its done in a way that is subtle so that it achieves the desires attention without the neon lights. This is just as much (perhaps more) a silent competition between females to out-compete other females as it is to get attention from males. The level of cattiness and competition that exists between girls is usually VERY well hidden from guys (coz were just sweet and innocent right?), thats why there are so many white knights who will jump on anyone to defend the honour of the innocent pretty girl, I'm sure you've all seen this.

So basically, most girls don't mind the objectification, they use it as a standard to try and achieve, but if you are too obvert, then you're being politically wrong and YOU are the bad guy! Look at the behaviours of most girls, the shopping, hours per morning on hair and makeup, self indulgence, celebrity worship and you will see this, treat this girl like the prostitute she dresses as though and fire and brimstone will rain down on you, it's like teasing a dog with your dinner and then punishing it when it tried to eat it. I personally don't like this culture and thus dress is what I consider most comfy / weather appropriate without regard for if it is considered 'hot' or not but then again, I do not like this kind of attention and would prefer to be praised for a skill or ability than simple genetically determined physical features, nor do I try and attract friends by being pretty, I'd prefer friendships based on common interest and personality.

Just my two cents from a girls perspective, hope it sheds some light.

 

[Pokenator]

tl;dr: Do you think our generation (media) is recreating sexism under a different label?
Do you think women help perpetuate it with a sort of stockholm-syndrome?
Is anyone else tired of seeing the same-old thinly veiled objectification?

This is how I look at things:
I grew up in the 90's with female singers and the media telling me men are disgusting pigs and women are strong, beautiful angels that would never do anything wrong.
When I grew up and actually spent time with females, I realized that was all bullshit. I eventually started getting rather annoyed with the way men are portrayed. Women ***** and ***** about how females are portrayed in the media, but frankly, men don't fair much better.
I find it rather insulting to be honest. And I've found it insulting that is was perfectly acceptable for a woman to be sexist but it as criminal for a man to be.

So I decided to adopt a sexist and bitter attitude. Until these women that are going around demanding equal rights realize what it is they're asking for.
Until they're willing to accept everything that comes with being equal, I will be a sexist asshole. Until a man is no longer guilty until proven innocent just because he was accused of something by a woman, I will be insulting.

I do show respect to women who deserve it. However, I refuse to show respect to someone just because they're a woman. Fuck that. Fuck them. They want to be equal, then I'll treat them like I treat all others. They can scream sexism all they want, I don't give a shit.

I agree with you that many girls cry for 'equality' but still want a guy to open the door for them, pull out their chair and pay for their meal- they only want the good parts of equality but don't want to pay for a guys meal every now and then. I personally hate this double standard and would not expect a guy to treat me any differently from his male friends, but likewise, if I were treated this way I would try my best to treat that guy back the same way I am treated.

I however disagree that this gives you license to assume ALL girls are like this and be sexist towards all of them and then take back your words when this isn't the case (within the bounds of personal freedom of expression of course, but I would personally be offended if someone assumed that just coz I am female, this is how I act, which is an inherently sexist stereotype, just a different kind)