The generation that recreated Sexism.

[Blindswordmaster]

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

I am curious then, what are your thoughts on the Mass Effect series? While you do have a point concerning the damsel in distress idea, it is merely fiction. Sometimes you get yourself into some shit that you need someone's help in getting out of.
-On a personal note:were you the person I cussed out in "Hate for Canada"? I'm thinking you were, but I've forgotten. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just trying to remember. I have trouble remembering sometimes.

 

[Akalistos]

Purely a discussion, I spent a little bit searching the forums and couldn't find a similar topic.

Initial question: Do you believe that our generation is recreating sexism?

I ask this to the gaming community for a reason.

It is no secret that women have a certain "special" role in most video games. Sure, there are the few that stand out (Mirror's Edge, etc), but for the most part women are awkwardly proportioned with the purpose of being loved by the male protagonist.

I play World of Warcraft, and their fanart section is often plagued with drawings of scantily clad females (and when I scantily, I mean ridiculously) in suggestive poses. And the same can be said about a lot of other pictures/video content in today's media.

But what do we call it? We tend to call it the sexual liberation of females.

So let me get this straight: Back when the rights of females were in question, this sort of objectification was highly frowned upon because it was the "men" who were just drooling over them. It was wrong.

Now, however, it's okay? Why? Because the women finally turned around and said "Hey, wait, no. I kind of liked that."

There also tends to be a rather negative view of those who fight for the rights of females. The term "feminist" is thrown around as a joke, the social stigma is so thick it's worse than marmalade on a hot day. But maybe some males are also tired of seeing the same-old bland and shameless disrespect in so many forms of media.

I bring this to you because I think this community is more level-headed than most others.

tl;dr: Do you think our generation (media) is recreating sexism under a different label?
Do you think women help perpetuate it with a sort of stockholm-syndrome?
Is anyone else tired of seeing the same-old thinly veiled objectification?

Also, I am a male.

Yes, as long as Barby existed, it will recreate the same stereotype from the 50. I like women that are they want to be, not the one that model their own life according to someone else. Hell, i had a major kick on a girl that said to me she wanted to rule the world... Good times.

 

[CoverYourHead]

Men like sexy women. Men like naked sexy women even more. It's a fact of life and it's always been there. If you look at any medium for the past few generations it's been very similar, women as sex symbols and secondary characters (often for the romantic subplot for a male). I don't think this generation is any worse. If anything it's better. At least now the law is in favor of women (well, in some cases, not completely... depending on who you ask), and we support women in daring or radical roles. Go back a generation or two, try to imagine a female protagonist that really breaks the bonds of sexism. It's tough. At least now we have females that are complicated characters (Alyx in Half-Life, Faith of Mirror's Edge, Sophia Lamb of BioShock 2, Kreia of KoToR II, Jiana Proudmore of Warcraft (by far the most intelligent and wise mortal character), etc.).

I think we're doing a good thing. Just because some trolls online are saying racist and feminist things and the media portrays sexy women doesn't mean we're degenerating.

Hoo boy. That there's a wall o' text.

 

[PinkAngelKitty]

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

I am curious then, what are your thoughts on the Mass Effect series? While you do have a point concerning the damsel in distress idea, it is merely fiction. Sometimes you get yourself into some shit that you need someone's help in getting out of.
-On a personal note:were you the person I cussed out in "Hate for Canada"? I'm thinking you were, but I've forgotten. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just trying to remember. I have trouble remembering sometimes.

Oh sure. We all need a little help from time to time. But why is it ALWAYS the female that does it? Why is it always the male that has to save her? We are even alienated by situations in which this isn't the case. See: Kick-Ass controversy. As for mass effect? I've never played it. Aren't you able to play as a female character in the second one? Isn't that role on of leadership? That's good; we need more of that.

 

[dodo1331]

Are you kidding me?

Girl: Oh look. A male (looked at me funny, didn't hire me, rejected my sexual advances)! I think I'll file for sexual harassment!

This happens a LOT. You know what the guy can do against this? Nothing. At ALL.

And if a guy is REALLY sexually harassed? He can screw off, men aren't sexually harassed! They must obviously like being sexually harassed because they are men! If a woman physically abuses a man? Why, that is ridiculous! Preposterous! Women are the ones who are domestically abused!

If anything, men are the ones being discriminated against.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

No I don't think so. Our generation, in its unprecedented interconnectedness and liberal beliefs seems to revived sexism, but not in the same sense as what what has been traditional. Our generation has taken sexism and satirized it, not knowing any true sexual distinctions in our present lives. Sexism is back, but as a joke.

And when people can make a joke about anything and no one gets offended we are truly equal

So anyone got any good Dead baby/Dumb blond/Black/ or Jew Jokes

Got your floaties? Because you're about open the flood gates.
-What disease paralyzes women from the waist down? Marriage.
-A rabi, a priest, and a black guy walk into a bar. The bartender stands up and asks,"What is this, a joke?"
-Why did the blond ear green lipstick? Because red means stop.
-What do you call a blond with a new BMW? Divorced.

Zing!

 

[DefunctTheory]

Oh sure. We all need a little help from time to time. But why is it ALWAYS the female that does it? Why is it always the male that has to save her? We are even alienated by situations in which this isn't the case. See: Kick-Ass controversy. As for mass effect? I've never played it. Aren't you able to play as a female character in the second one? Isn't that role on of leadership? That's good; we need more of that.

Both of them actually.

And what is this controversy you speak of?

 

[PinkAngelKitty]

Are you kidding me?

Girl: Oh look. A male (looked at me funny, didn't hire me, rejected my sexual advances)! I think I'll file for sexual harassment!

This happens a LOT. You know what the guy can do against this? Nothing. At ALL.

And if a guy is REALLY sexually harassed? He can screw off, men aren't sexually harassed! They must obviously like being sexually harassed because they are men! If a woman physically abuses a man? Why, that is ridiculous! Preposterous! Women are the ones who are domestically abused!

If anything, men are the ones being discriminated against.

While that is a gross exaggeration, there are plenty of examples when men are favoured in law over women. Women are still paid less in the work force than man. For every dollar a man makes doing a job, a woman doing the same job will only make 71 cents.

 

[Lukirre]

Yet you give no examples of society that favor men at this time. Throw a few at me (American Football doesn't count).

And that attitude is EXACTLY the problem. For me to be an outstanding male of the current age, I have to STOP LOOKING AT NEARLY NUDE FEMALES. Otherwise, I'm objectifying. Well, I sir, am offended. I can look at bathing suit models and drool, and turn right around and treat women like human beings. I also believe that the majority of people here can do the same. So no, its not sexist. Its just what I like.

And yes, it is womens fault (for the most part) for eating disorders. Either that, or a specific male. Don't pin the crimes of the few against the many.

You gave me no examples of laws that favour females yet you get mad at me for not backing up an argument.
k.
Aside from the post that I made at the top, nothing. You're right. Media does not focus on targetting a largely male population. Correct. I admit, you have me beat sir. The number of movies/magazines/sports made for men is clearly outweighed by the ones made for women.

Why do you think women go crazy for Twilight? "LOOK, IT'S NOT US FOR A CHANGE."

"Well, I personally am not sexist so I don't understand where this problem exists."

Please tell me you're kidding. Please. Please tell me you're actually aware of the problems?

Eating disorders are pretty extreme. Can you say that a woman with an eating disorder does it to make herself feel better in her own eyes, or to make herself look better in the eyes of others? And where would that need have come from?

This, too, is part of the problem. People mention sexism and the males automatically jump to defend themselves. They beat down any arguments made to make themselves free of guilt, making the women who make the arguments feel like they're distress is pointless.

And a reminder: I'm a male.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

Well, is it any different with males? You gave WoW as an example, so let me use it too: every single male in that game looks like he could compete in Mr. Olympia(except the Gnome and Goblin obviously, and the BElf at least has realistically large muscle masses).

As for voice chat and in-game communication, for some people out there it is simply a matter of trolling. If sexism is what gets under a woman's skin they will do it. I don't really treat females any different than anyone else except when I mistake them for a 14 year old(with some really shitty microphones there is no difference).

He gave WoW fanart example, which is used to advertise the game along with concept art. Not the game itself. On fan art females (usually human or elves) are depicted in a very sensual way, I have to agree and have to agree the reason why: Most players are male. In game actually these days the gear is so "asexual" females are showing less skin then catholic nuns and in many cases even then radical muslims. There are sensual representation of males, again elves and humans but in a very minor scale. As for the beefy looks of males in game, like with females you need to strip them off the gear to look at their muscles.

 

[Billion Backs]

Well, is it any different with males? You gave WoW as an example, so let me use it too: every single male in that game looks like he could compete in Mr. Olympia(except the Gnome and Goblin obviously, and the BElf at least has realistically large muscle masses).

As for voice chat and in-game communication, for some people out there it is simply a matter of trolling. If sexism is what gets under a woman's skin they will do it. I don't really treat females any different than anyone else except when I mistake them for a 14 year old(with some really shitty microphones there is no difference).

What he says. Both genders are being sexual objectified in various media.

It's rather obvious in gaming, too. Sure, gaming apparently "traditionally" relies on male audience, but come on. All the male characters are as objectified as the female ones. They're so ripped that they'd have to be some kind of super body builders.

Gender roles are generally a part of the whole deal, too. Is it sexist to assume that the man is more likely to be the knight in shining armor? Yeah, I'd say so. But that's one of the classic tropes that's being used everywhere. And you really shouldn't wave the whole sexism/racism card too much in some cases - I mean, Arthas is white and a male, WTF!

I really, REALLY don't like the type of "feminists" that are against pornography, saying that it objectifies women. If anything, it objectifies both genders, and frankly, I'd rather live in a sexually liberated society then in some puritan shithole.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

This is something that, as a female, has given me a so called "feminist's sandy vagina" for quite some time. My problem is not so much the depiction of the female body. It's a beautiful thing... and while it is often exaggerated, it doesn't bother me that they are constantly showed half-naked and disproportionate to the max.

But my answer to your question is yes.

Because of what the female characters do. Or what they seem to be incapable of doing. Thinking rationally, saving THEMSELVES from trouble. They are victims. They must be saved from other men and/or themselves. They aren't portrayed as competent, or important, only necessary, and that is a big fucking problem.

Now we've created a situation is which is it desirable for females to be completely dependent on their male counterparts. I see it all the time. More more girls my age, as soon as they get a boyfriend, simply become extensions of their boyfriends and their boyfriend's needs and personality. And how fucking sad is that? How can we ever be considered equal if we are unable to consider ourselves equal?

Being a smart, outspoken, opinionated female all of my life has presented me with a lack of acceptance when I was young. Not so much now that I am an adult who goes to university and is therefore surrounded by intelligent, likeminded individuals, but throughout high school I was rejected not only by males but other females. They couldn't relate to me. I wasn't obsessed with what boys thought of me and my sole mission in life wasn't to find some guy to take care of me.

Women need to be portrayed in the media as human beings, with a personality, faults and intellect, not simply as objects for plot advancement. Plus, more games need the option to play as a female. It's time to face facts: Girls are playing games too, and I'm tired of saving the lame love interest from some hopeless trap she fell into because she has tits instead of a brain. The story is totally lost on me when I start to question my own intellect because I also share a similar anatomical attribute.

I am curious then, what are your thoughts on the Mass Effect series? While you do have a point concerning the damsel in distress idea, it is merely fiction. Sometimes you get yourself into some shit that you need someone's help in getting out of.
-On a personal note:were you the person I cussed out in "Hate for Canada"? I'm thinking you were, but I've forgotten. I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just trying to remember. I have trouble remembering sometimes.

Oh sure. We all need a little help from time to time. But why is it ALWAYS the female that does it? Why is it always the male that has to save her? We are even alienated by situations in which this isn't the case. See: Kick-Ass controversy. As for mass effect? I've never played it. Aren't you able to play as a female character in the second one? Isn't that role on of leadership? That's good; we need more of that.

Mass Effect 1 and 2 allow the player to design either a male or female Commander Shepard, the main character and one of the greatest video game characters ever! Mass Effect 2 also tries to feature strong female characters that can actually acted human, even the aliens. I say tried only because the medium is somewhat limited. Search youtube for videos concerning Tali and Jack in ME2.
-I'm pretty sure I did cuss you out before. Sorry, I was just tired of people talking shit about the South. Go Canada, our best neighbors ever! Seriously, you guys gave us hockey. We can never repay you for that.

 

[dodo1331]

Are you kidding me?

Girl: Oh look. A male (looked at me funny, didn't hire me, rejected my sexual advances)! I think I'll file for sexual harassment!

This happens a LOT. You know what the guy can do against this? Nothing. At ALL.

And if a guy is REALLY sexually harassed? He can screw off, men aren't sexually harassed! They must obviously like being sexually harassed because they are men! If a woman physically abuses a man? Why, that is ridiculous! Preposterous! Women are the ones who are domestically abused!

If anything, men are the ones being discriminated against.

While that is a gross exaggeration, there are plenty of examples when men are favoured in law over women. Women are still paid less in the work force than man. For every dollar a man makes doing a job, a woman doing the same job will only make 71 cents.

Oh, don't worry Ms. Hello Kitty, I am quite in favor of your cause. I am very tired of the whole "men hold doors open for women" and all those shenanigans, and women should be getting equal pay, jobs, treatment, etc. I just think that the divorce and sexual harassment trials should be, you know, equal. Instead of the current system where women nearly always win sexual harassment lawsuits and the children from their former marriage.

 

[Lukirre]

Oh, don't worry Ms. Hello Kitty, I am quite in favor of your cause. I am very tired of the whole "men hold doors open for women" and all those shenanigans, and women should be getting equal pay, jobs, treatment, etc. I just think that the divorce and sexual harassment trials should be, you know, equal. Instead of the current system where women nearly always win sexual harassment lawsuits and the children from their former marriage.

There are a lot of cases where men also manipulate the system to leave their wife with nothing.
You only hear about the women doing it because it usually happens to very famous, very rich men.

 

[DefunctTheory]

You gave me no examples of laws that favour females yet you get mad at me for not backing up an argument.
k.
Aside from the post that I made at the top, nothing. You're right. Media does not focus on targetting a largely male population. Correct. I admit, you have me beat sir. The number of movies/magazines/sports made for men is clearly outweighed by the ones made for women.

Why do you think women go crazy for Twilight? "LOOK, IT'S NOT US FOR A CHANGE."

"Well, I personally am not sexist so I don't understand where this problem exists."

Please tell me you're kidding. Please. Please tell me you're actually aware of the problems?

Eating disorders are pretty extreme. Can you say that a woman with an eating disorder does it to make herself feel better in her own eyes, or to make herself look better in the eyes of others? And where would that need have come from?

This, too, is part of the problem. People mention sexism and the males automatically jump to defend themselves. They beat down any arguments made to make themselves free of guilt, making the women who make the arguments feel like they're distress is pointless.

And a reminder: I'm a male.

All laws of sexual nature.
Divorce law.
Custody.
Civil Abuse.

There, four without even thinking.


This link calls your eating disorder argument horse shit [http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_causes_eating_disorders_000049_3.htm]


And actually, magazines are fairly evenly split. Not sure where your going with that. Same with movies.

 

[Vitor Goncalves]

Are you really going to judge society's views towards women by using horny teenage gamer boys who don't leave their computer screens as your sample group? Anyone who has been one of those would understand that their hormones place their brains on a constant loop of "HURR HURR BOOBIES FNAR FNAR OOH BOUNCY MMM NEKKID LADIES HELLS YES".

Gender equality has not yet been reached, but we are always moving closer.

I don't see any diference between that behavior and an adult guy or even an elderly guy. And mind you, the average age of the gamer as passed far beyond teenagehood.

Demographics
The November 2005 Nielsen Active Gamer Study, taking a survey of 2,000 regular gamers, found that the U.S. games market is diversifying. The age group among male players has expanded significantly up into the 25 - 40 age group. For casual online puzzle-style and simple mobile cell phone games, the gender divide is more or less equal between males and females. Females have also been found to show an attraction to online multi-player games where there is a communal experience.[citation needed] More recently there has been a growing segment of female players engaged with the aggressive style of games historically considered to fall within traditionally male genres (e.g., first-person shooters). According to the ESRB almost 41% of PC gamers are women.[35]
When comparing today?s industry climate with that of 20 years ago, women and many adults are more inclined to be using products in the industry. While the market for teen and young adult men is still a strong market, it is the other demographics which are posting significant growth. In 2008, the average American gamer has been playing for 12 years, and is now, on average, 35 years of age.

 

[PinkAngelKitty]

Are you kidding me?

Girl: Oh look. A male (looked at me funny, didn't hire me, rejected my sexual advances)! I think I'll file for sexual harassment!

This happens a LOT. You know what the guy can do against this? Nothing. At ALL.

And if a guy is REALLY sexually harassed? He can screw off, men aren't sexually harassed! They must obviously like being sexually harassed because they are men! If a woman physically abuses a man? Why, that is ridiculous! Preposterous! Women are the ones who are domestically abused!

If anything, men are the ones being discriminated against.

While that is a gross exaggeration, there are plenty of examples when men are favoured in law over women. Women are still paid less in the work force than man. For every dollar a man makes doing a job, a woman doing the same job will only make 71 cents.

Oh, don't worry Ms. Hello Kitty, I am quite in favor of your cause. I am very tired of the whole "men hold doors open for women" and all those shenanigans, and women should be getting equal pay, jobs, treatment, etc. I just think that the divorce and sexual harassment trials should be, you know, equal. Instead of the current system where women nearly always win sexual harassment lawsuits and the children from their former marriage.

I prefer to be called PAK, it's a little less condescending. :|

Are referring to common courtesy? Because I hold doors open for people too. It's not a shenanigan, it's just polite. My father was screwed out of a lot of money by his first wife, so I more than most understand where your anger stems from. I was cheated out of a very reputable private school because we were giving all of our money to her and her new husband; the money went straight into his RRSP instead of being used for my brother.

My point is that divorce is an ugly process, and regardless of gender, the former spouses are going to try and fuck the other over.

Also consider sexual harassment from the other point of view. Who are you to judge whether she actually felt objectified? Are you female? You will never understand what it's like to be made to feel that way, just like how white people will never understand what it means to be racially discriminated against on a large scale. While I'll admit that there are those who take advantage of the system, I have worked with absolute pigs before and it's truly an awful work environment.

 

[Deleric]

I honestly don't think it's as bad or ever will be as bad as it was 50 or so years ago. Nowadays, it's much more joked about than actually practiced. Atleast, from my view it has.

 

[Lukirre]

All laws of sexual nature.
Divorce law.
Custody.
Civil Abuse.

There, four without even thinking.


This link calls your eating disorder argument horse shit [http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_causes_eating_disorders_000049_3.htm]


And actually, magazines are fairly evenly split. Not sure where your going with that. Same with movies.

"The response of the media to the cultural drive for thinness and the overproduction of food both likely play major roles in triggering obesity and eating disorders.

?On the one hand, advertisers heavily market weight-reduction programs and present anorexic young models as the paradigm of sexual desirability.
?Clothes are designed and displayed for thin bodies in spite of the fact that few women could wear them successfully."

You're right.
That article called my arguments horse shit.

I'd argue that there are more magazines that get people's attention with "sexy" females on the cover than there are with men. I mean...men's health usually has an attractive man. But that's not even a woman's magazine.

Civil Abuse laws were created because husbands wouldn't stop kicking the shit out of their wives.
Rape laws were created because men kept raping women.
Custody and divorce law can favour either or, it depends on which one can play the system better.

 

[Kagim]

Sexism is supposed to be about blatantly disrespecting someone of the opposite sex.

Right now sexism is whenever a women doesn't like attention from certain people.

Yes, that might sound bitter. That's just because I am.

Pretty much any statement about media being sexist towards women can be turned around to show its sexist towards men to.

Rap music calling women bitches? Rap music making men look like greedy sex obsessed freaks.

Movies and TV setting an unfair standard of beauty? Have you seen the men in tv shows? The average show that has unfairly beautiful women has unfairly beautiful men. They are usually dumb as bricks to the both of them.

Video games unfairly using women as plot devices? Men once again being unrealistically attractive, setting unfair standards, and still they are usually dumb as bricks.

My favorite is when people bring up porn as being sexist showing women as nothing but objects. You know, because the men depicted are not shown as stupid manipulative sex obsessed studs.

No, I'm not calling for all this to be banned and censored. I'm calling for people to stop giving such a shit and think for themselves.