The issue of gamer "entitlement".

[Fappy]

Don't get me started on this new internet lingo. Entitlement use to be just basic consumer rights. Now, its apparently "asking for too much". That's what you get when a bunch of new kids are incharge of the current generation. Their biggest concern is how manly their virtual avatar is. or how much virtual chicks they can virtually shag.


I blame bad parenting and MTV.


It's easy enough to say "vote with your wallets" That worked back then, but now when we have to deal with a bunch of pups who can't tell their assholes from their nose. They don't even think consumer rights exist, nor can they comprehend their actions. Our tactic has to change, we can't rely on 'common sense' anymore.

Some people may disagree with some of things you say here (including myself), but I have to admit you have a knack for delivering your points with a punch. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.

We have the right to ***** and moan all we want just like the companies we are bitching to have the right to ignore us. The only time this becomes an issue is if you don't back your complaints up with you wallet, you know, the language of business.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Consumer Entitlement is a concept bandied about by a very pro-corporate culture with it's own entitlement issues. Let's at least acknowledge the reason for ME3 and other games' day one DLC is to punish the used games market by companies that feel entitled to money from every player of the game, not just the original buyer. It can be downright ironic that those that wish to control where, how and who can access even legally obtained content and devices would have issues with the customer wanting things thri way as well. Then again, I could write a disortation about how everyone thinks only they have the right to be a greedy asshole.

The customer is not always right, but then, neither is the company. Where the line is drawn depends on the issue, but by and large I side with the company on artistic usses, and the customer on technical or delivery issues. No customer has the right to ask for a new ending, or new matchup, or whatever was outsidde the original story / message of the game, movie, comic, ect. Technical issues, while I beleive customers can be oversensitive to technical glitches (my visits to the citidel can be a bit choppy but I live with it) these are things that should be ironed out. Delivering the game and DLC can be dicey: I'll just leave it agree with Bioware's act or not, can you really be surprised given the content and the actions taken around it that fans are upset?

Voting with you wallet is another corporate entitlement: as in, customers are only allowed to express displeasure in our products in one way. Aside from the general disrespect for free speach, it's basically a challenge to see how far you can push customers as you dare them to cut off their nose to spite their face. No capitalist society can thrive if businesses aren't afraid of losing customers (it's that competetion for our dollars that has produced most of our innovation and growth) and it gets worse. The used game market and piracy have several roots in customer disatisfaction with price, availability, and ease of use, and the response is not to try and get customers back by changing practices, but condeming the alternatives taken. What good is not buying something when they'll blame gamestop or torrents, not what actualy pissed us off?

 

[Netrigan]

Books are a different beast from video games. No author in his right mind would pull what Bethesda did with Fallout 3 and Broken Steel.

You mean undoing an ending to get a sequel out of it. Happens from time to time. First Blood and Jurassic Park both featured the unkilling of the main character.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

It's pretty ridiculous that the game industry has already fucked consumers over this bad, it will only get worse so long as gamers defend this nonsense. Imagine buying a TV and bringing it home to find out that it doesn't work as promised and then being told that it's non refundable because you took it out of the box.

I think I now see why CAPTCHA was replaced with Solve Media, it's so they can get more advertisement money. I wonder how much Pizza Hut is paying them to make me type "$10 Dinner Box"?

The sad thing? Gamers are literally legally entitled to every last one of those, except maybe the last two -- and the very last one we're still entitled to, with limits (allowing exchanges for non-functional merchandise, which retailers do, pretty much covers it.) Project $10, and the notion of EULAs in general, is a big fat attack on the right of first sale, a consumer right, something that consumers are legally entitled to. The word isn't an insult; it means you have a right to something.

Edit: By the way, I'm not saying that by buying a game we buy the rights to make copies of it, as I saw some people claiming in another thread. To do that you'd have to buy the copyright, a right that entitles you to make copies. Owning a copy and owning the copyright are two different things. Funny how that works, isn't it?

 

[Fappy]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

You know, it's the damnedest thing. If I had actually said all of that, I would have remembered it.

I'm not convinced "entitlement" is an issue here - it's pretty okay to say "I am unhappy with this design element/pricing model/sales model/etc." The real problem is that people don't follow that up by buying something with better design/pricing/etc.

That's most of it, yeah. I think entitlement comes in when gamers start making demands that were never part of the equation, like the current demand for DLC to "fix" the ending of Mass Effect 3. Seriously, get the fuck over yourselves.

But they are complaining about something that was part of the equation. Something that had been promised by the company since ME1 was making its first PR rounds: Your decisions will matter and impact how all the games play out all the way up to the finale. As it turns out, they didn't.

There would be an issue if gamers were demanding refunds or something similarly silly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with gamers voicing their opinions on how the game could be improved OR warning Bioware that they do not agree with their actions and may not do business with them in the future.

Yeah its annoying to see people ***** and moan about something when you don't think its a big deal. Guess what? Deal with it. They have the right to voice their opinions. If they can't back it up (I.E. don't purchases games from said company, etc.) then they aren't even worth your time to begin with.

 

[Kahunaburger]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

You know, it's the damnedest thing. If I had actually said all of that, I would have remembered it.

I'm not convinced "entitlement" is an issue here - it's pretty okay to say "I am unhappy with this design element/pricing model/sales model/etc." The real problem is that people don't follow that up by buying something with better design/pricing/etc.

That's most of it, yeah. I think entitlement comes in when gamers start making demands that were never part of the equation, like the current demand for DLC to "fix" the ending of Mass Effect 3. Seriously, get the fuck over yourselves.

I don't see the "fix the ending" stuff as entitlement, but I am a little bemused by the idea of a Bioware ending featuring a classic "Bioware choice" coming as a surprise to anyone.

 

[Fappy]

But they are complaining about something that was part of the equation. Something that had been promised by the company since ME1 was making its first PR rounds: Your decisions will matter and impact how all the games play out all the way up to the finale. As it turns out, they didn't.

And Kangaroo Jack promised me in the trailers that the movie was about a talking kangaroo when it totally wasn't. Your point?

My point is false advertising. People have the right to complain. You said it yourself:

I think entitlement comes in when gamers start making demands that were never part of the equation

They explicitly said your decisions over the course of three games impact the finale. They don't.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with gamers voicing their opinions

If the sentence ended right there, I would have no problem with it. The trouble is, gamers are mistaking the right to speak with the right to be heard. And don't make me laugh about taking their business elsewhere. You and I both know that coming from the gaming community, that's and idle threat. These forums represent only a minority of the gaming community. Most people who play games don't care as much as we do. And of our community, an even smaller number possess the willpower to follow through and not buy the games they threatened to not buy.

You are absolutely right that in most cases the gaming community's threats are rather hallow, however that does not mean that they are incapable of making valid arguments or that companies should ignore them. If you make your voice loud enough someone will hear it and that's just what a lot of upset fans are doing right now. They are banding together and organizing their complaints/requests so that Bioware can get useful feedback. Its a win-win. This is a pretty nifty article that was published today on the topic: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/13/mass-effect-3-and-the-pernicious-myth-of-gamer-entitlement/

In the end I completely understand what you're getting at. When people ***** and moan a bunch (hypocritically more often than not) it has a way of overshadowing any legitimate arguments. Yes people are being immature and scorebombing ME3 reviews and harassing employees on Twitter, but there really is a down-to-earth, level-headed and rational group spear heading the whole campaign.

 

[Fappy]

My point is false advertising. People have the right to complain. You said it yourself:

I complained, but I didn't write to the producer calling him an asshole. Nor did I demand the studio change the movie to make it suck less.

A video game is a completely different product from a very different industry. Movies are advertised and presented as works of art (at least during their time in the theaters). Video games are sold as consumer products. There is far more of a give and take between fans and developers in the game industry and I think Bethesda's work on the Fallout 3 DLC illustrates this pretty well.

In the end I completely understand what you're getting at. When people ***** and moan a bunch (hypocritically more often than not) it has a way of overshadowing any legitimate arguments. Yes people are being immature and scorebombing ME3 reviews and harassing employees on Twitter, but there really is a down-to-earth, level-headed and rational group spear heading the whole campaign.

I'm not seeing win/win because first of all, I'm skeptical that this will end well. And second, volume does not automatically equate to credibility. For a clear example, look at American political discourse. Lots of very loud people, most of whom are stupid or insane.

I just don't have any faith in the gaming community. They've given me precious little reason to believe I should. For real change to happen, we need two things:

1. A more educated consumer base. That one's going to be difficult to pull off since I've already established that gamers are their own worst enemy.
2. More competition in the market from new business models. This one's not going to come from most gamers, because most of them couldn't lead a line dance, nevermind a company.

It's a win/win when the complaints are organized. That's what community managers are for. They consolidate common complaints/requests/etc. and present them to the developers/publishers. The more they understand our desires the better the chances are that we will have them fulfilled. Its not always a good thing for developers to play exactly into fans' hands, but they should always be aware of what we want.

But I agree, the gaming community is quite hopeless. People really need to learn how to put their money where their mouth is. The best ME fans can do to get the ending they want is to not purchase any DLC and make sure the message is clear that, "we will not invest anymore time or money in your product until it is satisfactory".

 

[The Wykydtron]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

It's pretty ridiculous that the game industry has already fucked consumers over this bad, it will only get worse so long as gamers defend this nonsense. Imagine buying a TV and bringing it home to find out that it doesn't work as promised and then being told that it's non refundable because you took it out of the box.

I think I now see why CAPTCHA was replaced with Solve Media, it's so they can get more advertisement money. I wonder how much Pizza Hut is paying them to make me type "$10 Dinner Box"?

Lol wut? I took a broken game back to GAME the other week and they just replaced it no problem.

I have heard of some pretty crappy customer service from Steam though, if that's what you're talking about.

Anyway back on topic nao.

Requesting DLC for ME3's ending (most recent and overwhelming example of this shit) is all well and good but to have so much bullshit backlash over a slightly fudged up ending to an otherwise top notch game is just ludicrous.

Yes it raised a load of questions, didn't make much sense and possibly created tragedy for tragedy's sake but you know if they'd gone for a safer "everybody wins" ending people would be blaming Bioware (or EA) of playing it safe and making the Reapers a bit shit.

Though how funny would it be if Bioware's just sitting back drinking beer going "looks like nobody's found the super secret 4th ending where everyone wins forever yet. Fuckin' morons!"

 

[Epona]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

It's pretty ridiculous that the game industry has already fucked consumers over this bad, it will only get worse so long as gamers defend this nonsense. Imagine buying a TV and bringing it home to find out that it doesn't work as promised and then being told that it's non refundable because you took it out of the box.

I think I now see why CAPTCHA was replaced with Solve Media, it's so they can get more advertisement money. I wonder how much Pizza Hut is paying them to make me type "$10 Dinner Box"?

Lol wut? I took a broken game back to GAME the other week and they just replaced it no problem.

Try taking a game back for a full refund.

 

[The Wykydtron]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

It's pretty ridiculous that the game industry has already fucked consumers over this bad, it will only get worse so long as gamers defend this nonsense. Imagine buying a TV and bringing it home to find out that it doesn't work as promised and then being told that it's non refundable because you took it out of the box.

I think I now see why CAPTCHA was replaced with Solve Media, it's so they can get more advertisement money. I wonder how much Pizza Hut is paying them to make me type "$10 Dinner Box"?

Lol wut? I took a broken game back to GAME the other week and they just replaced it no problem.

Try taking a game back for a full refund.

Y'know in the UK you're entitled to a full refund if the game isn't working or isn't as advertised. Fucking Sale of Goods Act 1979 baby! That two year business course was totally worth it

 

[Fappy]

A video game is a completely different product from a very different industry. Movies are advertised and presented as works of art (at least during their time in the theaters). Video games are sold as consumer products. There is far more of a give and take between fans and developers in the game industry and I think Bethesda's work on the Fallout 3 DLC illustrates this pretty well.

My point stands. Just because you didn't like something doesn't automatically mean you get to demand the product be changed to satisfy you.

It's a win/win when the complaints are organized. That's what community managers are for. They consolidate common complaints/requests/etc. and present them to the developers/publishers. The more they understand our desires the better the chances are that we will have them fulfilled. Its not always a good thing for developers to play exactly into fans' hands, but they should always be aware of what we want.

I remain skeptical. If there is a happy ending to this whole goatfuck, that would be nice. But I'm not holding out hope.

I like that term "goatfuck". I am holding out hope because honestly, this may be a chance to see part of our community "grow up". When I say grow up I don't mean, "you didn't like the ending, get over it". I mean, "We can organize our thoughts and efforts and get the products we want from those that make them". As it stands now our community is a field of mindless goats (now I am thinking of goats) being milked for their ignorance and weakness... and its its our fault. Its a seller's market until we grow some balls.

 

[Epona]

People who scream about gamer entitlement think that:

- we shouldn't expect to own the games we buy
- we shouldn't be able to resell the games we buy
- we shouldn't expect the entire game if we buy it on day one
- we shouldn't expect a demo
- we shouldn't expect to be able to return a game once opened

It's pretty ridiculous that the game industry has already fucked consumers over this bad, it will only get worse so long as gamers defend this nonsense. Imagine buying a TV and bringing it home to find out that it doesn't work as promised and then being told that it's non refundable because you took it out of the box.

I think I now see why CAPTCHA was replaced with Solve Media, it's so they can get more advertisement money. I wonder how much Pizza Hut is paying them to make me type "$10 Dinner Box"?

Lol wut? I took a broken game back to GAME the other week and they just replaced it no problem.

Try taking a game back for a full refund.

Y'know in the UK you're entitled to a full refund if the game isn't working or isn't as advertised. Fucking Sale of Goods Act 1979 baby! That two year business course was totally worth it

I don't live in the UK. I live in the United States of Greedville where consumer rights are minimal.