The issue of "Mens Rights"

[Sparrow]

The western male really has nothing to complain about.

Spoiler: Suicide: More than twice Female rate

In every country for which data are available, male suicide rates are at least twice as high as female suicide rates.

Please don't make statements like that. It upsets me.

Spoiler: Risk of Violence: Highest Group

Spoiler: Male Rape: Still not taken seriously. Only has existed officially for 8 years

In Europe there are no robust epidemiological data on the prevalence of rape or other sexual offences on men. Indeed, male rape did not exist in the eyes of UK law until 1994. Before this, male rape was classified as indecent assault. Following introduction of the new law, in 1995 there were 3142 indecent assaults and 227 rapes against men - an increase of 51% from 1994 (Stationary Office 1996). More recent Home Office Statistics show an increase of 400% in reported cases of male rape between 1995 and 2000. However, for many reasons, the vast majority of incidents of male rape go unreported.

Exactly this. There seems to be a mentality nowadays that because women got the shit end of the stick fifty years ago, men aren't allowed to complain about anything. And that is what gets to me.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

Currently I'm the victim of eye straining trying to read light blue text on a white background.

Ah yes, I've claimed many a victim in that manner. > *laughs maniacally*

Not that I'm saying it's in any way the same, but the thing is with white heterosexual males is people see them as being the untouched, sort of thing. So when someone like that is under attack by racism, or sexism or something it's much harder to get noticed.

But yeah, I dislike extreme feminists, but equally, people essentially becoming the male equivalent should be exiled...

If you're campaigning for things like "equal wages for men and women! Less discrimination over maternity leave!" sorts of things, more power to you. But people deciding all men are inherently evil, that the porn industry is somehow offensive, or that women are objects and food slaves is in desperate need of a gun barrel to the base of the skull. Because those people, sadly, do exist as a very loud minority.

Oh I agree, extremist minorities are never a good thing to have on board; people who subscribe to the likes of Andrea Dworkin are quite frankly nutters and detrimental to the cause. Also, I'm not going to deny that there are problems and double standards which inhibit men, but it really isn't on the same scale to the issues women are facing. And the people complaining that Feminism is the problem and that it's pushing some kind of misandrist agenda/seeking dominance aren't helping their case either.

- Omni ^_^

 

[Robert Ewing]

This could all be solved, and even be a total non-issue if fucking extremism would stop.

 

[Grospoliner]

Actually the rights of men may very well be in decline. In most circumstances this is due to discrimination directed to males in relationships. According to the CDC and NCHS the majority of custody hearings end in custody being awarded to the mother, preferential treatment on the perception that women raise children better than men, regardless of whether or not that is the case for any given 2 individuals (double discrimination on that one).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/95facts/fs_439s.htm

Sadly there are no current statics released by the CDC or NCHS on whether this trend has continued into the 2000s.


In several studies utilizing play actors in a public setting, men were overwhelmingly perceived negatively in situations mimicking spousal abuse where the male was the aggressor; while women were overwhelmingly perceived as empowered and positively when they were the ones performing the abuse against the male.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45856285#.TwyVB29SRC0


Did we all forget when the hosts of The Talk mocked a man for having his penis sliced off and thrown into a garbage disposal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ivamM7QWhs&feature=player_embedded#!

Incidentally Lorena Bobbitt got off thanks to an insanity plea and claims of domestic abuse despite being guilty of a crime.


Let's also not forget about the hundreds of lives ruined by statutory rape laws as well as false rape claims. Remember even if a couple has been dating since they were both 13 and 14, the moment one partner is below the age of consent the older one is automatically guilty of statutory rape regardless of consent under the current law, even if the two are a day in age difference when they have intercourse. Not only does this result in jail time and sex offender status (resulting in the loss of civil rights) but the system is easily abused by parents of the "victim" who may be pressing the charges for their own ends.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/05/10/denton-lawyer-challenging-statutory-rape-law/
http://reason.com/archives/2011/06/14/perverted-justice/singlepage

In many of these cases simply changing the law, clarifying it, would have prevented the destruction of an otherwise honest life. Instead sex crimes proves to be particularly vulnerable to moral panics, and if you don't believe that then:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/10/teen-girl-faces/


The sad fact is that cultural perceptions have become increasingly erratic since the highly restrictive pre-civil rights era. With cultural norms shifting very rapidly between acceptable and not with the law lagging sometimes decades behind. Part of the problem stems from aforementioned moral panics, where laws are passed without proper thought then enforced rigidly with no respect to their intent, while some comes directly from the civil rights movement. On one hand lies female empowerment and protectionist doctrines aimed at guarding women against male aggressors which result in women being placed on the proverbial pedestal. On the other hand this is the very behavior which resulted in women being placed in a position of inferiority in the mistaken belief that they are in capable of defending themselves from men (misogynistic to say the least).

What people evidently forget (the devil in the details) is that innate physical characteristics is not the only factor that differentiates men from women. What it ultimately boils down to is physical and psychological training. Any woman can be trained to be just as dangerous and lethal as any man. The same applies for any educational setting as well.

So, in the course of human events, we should seek not to provide preferential treatment in the law, but to provide a baseline of equal treatment for all humans everywhere. No discriminatory practices should be permitted.

 

[rutger5000]

It is bullshit. The western male really has nothing to complain about

You mean besides being systematically discriminated against in the job market, in car insurance, in education, in law enforcement, in parental rights and a ton other places.
White men are the group most discriminated against of all groups if you look at it objectively.

As a result of that, regarding the topic's subject, I think there's definately legitimate room for a men's rights group. Fathers4justice [http://www.fathers-4-justice.org/] for instance protests the blatant discrimination against men in divorce cases, where the woman always gets most or all rights over the children, even without trying, even if she's in a worse position to care for them.


True enough, I remember a client of my father's who I used to speak to on occasions divorcing. She didn't want the children, so now together he cares for five children and earns his money with a market stall. He's not poor, but neither is he rich. She's perfectly healthy and capable of working, but doesn't. And because she's a woman, under Dutch law he was forced to pay for her costs of living, even if he takes care of the children and she never sees those anymore. Not only that, he was forced to spend thousands of euros having his entire books redone by an official accountant (his bookkeeper's work is equal in quality) to the court could check his income and steal her money from him with greater accuracy.

And that was in 2008, not 1708. Isn't that just insanity?

And other things. When I gain my master's degree in about half a year, at this university there are two fewer places open to me for promotion to Doctor, and two fewer places open to me because I'm white. Those promotion spots are reserved to women and ethnic minorities. And there's nothing secret about that open form of racism and discrimination. They even presented it proudly at the time.

Imagine the ruckus if you created promotion spots for which the candidates description would go like "applicants must be male, white, have lived in this country for at least two generations, and have expertise in the field of..."

I'll argue with you on both your stories, I absolutely trust them to be true, but I'll argue about how they should be interperated.
First the story about the guy with five children. Everyone should sympathise with this man to some degree, but there are two features that lessen it's value as an argument. First of it contains no statistics, then how are we supposed to treat it like anything but a very rare case? The exception that confirms the rule, if you will. Also the guy should have stood up from himself. The way he was treaded was/is indeed the default manner divorces are managed, however other erangements could have been made, he could and should have gone to court.
Second the story about the university. Well Dutch universities are government instutions, and the Netherlands is a multicultured country. To prevent ethnic minorities to fall down the social ladder, succesfull individuals of that minority. The government rightfully doesn't want any ethnic minority to fall down to far, so they help individuals of ethnic minorities to become succesfull. Roughly the same idea is applied in the Dutch police force, try to get in more people from minority groups, so that they can set a good example for those minority groups. This is indeed racism and discrimation, but it's also good and sensible politics. If you don't like it, get your education from some place else the a government funded institution.
As a last remark: Don't complain about others being treaded better then you, if you are treaded properly.You don't have to follow that wisdom, but it likely makes you a more content person.

 

[ConstantErasing]

Can't we just simplify things and campaign for "Human Rights"?

 

[SanguineScale]

Someone posted this video in the last of these threads and I must admit it represents the sum total of my knowledge of the Manosphere.

So. much. hilarity Well placed video my good sir.

 

[rutger5000]

It is bullshit. The western male really has nothing to complain about

You mean besides being systematically discriminated against in the job market, in car insurance, in education, in law enforcement, in parental rights and a ton other places.
White men are the group most discriminated against of all groups if you look at it objectively.

As a result of that, regarding the topic's subject, I think there's definately legitimate room for a men's rights group. Fathers4justice [http://www.fathers-4-justice.org/] for instance protests the blatant discrimination against men in divorce cases, where the woman always gets most or all rights over the children, even without trying, even if she's in a worse position to care for them.


True enough, I remember a client of my father's who I used to speak to on occasions divorcing. She didn't want the children, so now together he cares for five children and earns his money with a market stall. He's not poor, but neither is he rich. She's perfectly healthy and capable of working, but doesn't. And because she's a woman, under Dutch law he was forced to pay for her costs of living, even if he takes care of the children and she never sees those anymore. Not only that, he was forced to spend thousands of euros having his entire books redone by an official accountant (his bookkeeper's work is equal in quality) to the court could check his income and steal her money from him with greater accuracy.

And that was in 2008, not 1708. Isn't that just insanity?

And other things. When I gain my master's degree in about half a year, at this university there are two fewer places open to me for promotion to Doctor, and two fewer places open to me because I'm white. Those promotion spots are reserved to women and ethnic minorities. And there's nothing secret about that open form of racism and discrimination. They even presented it proudly at the time.

Imagine the ruckus if you created promotion spots for which the candidates description would go like "applicants must be male, white, have lived in this country for at least two generations, and have expertise in the field of..."

I'll argue with you on both your stories, I absolutely trust them to be true, but I'll argue about how they should be interperated.
First the story about the guy with five children. Everyone should sympathise with this man to some degree, but there are two features that lessen it's value as an argument. First of it contains no statistics, then how are we supposed to treat it like anything but a very rare case? The exception that confirms the rule, if you will. Also the guy should have stood up from himself. The way he was treaded was/is indeed the default manner divorces are managed, however other erangements could have been made, he could and should have gone to court.
Second the story about the university. Well Dutch universities are government instutions, and the Netherlands is a multicultured country. To prevent ethnic minorities to fall down the social ladder, succesfull individuals of that minority. The government rightfully doesn't want any ethnic minority to fall down to far, so they help individuals of ethnic minorities to become succesfull. Roughly the same idea is applied in the Dutch police force, try to get in more people from minority groups, so that they can set a good example for those minority groups. This is indeed racism and discrimation, but it's also good and sensible politics. If you don't like it, get your education from some place else the a government funded institution.
As a last remark: Don't complain about others being treaded better then you, if you are treaded properly.You don't have to follow that wisdom, but it likely makes you a more content person.

 

[RagTagBand]

Equality between genders cannot be obtained by focusing solely on the inequality of one of them. Feminism, "masculism"; Both need to be disregarded and a more universal approach needs to be adopted.

 

[kaitoshimizu]

Misandry is not and never will be feminism. That's all I have to say on the matter.

 

[the Dept of Science]

I'm a man... since when did I need a rights group?

But on a serious note, I do think that there is a great value in masculinity and its something that a lot of guys lack. I think that when it comes to a relationship, a man is most attractive when he is in control. This is hardwired by millions of years of evolution and it will be difficult to completely rid from our society. Its an unfortunate truth but its something that we have to live with.
This doesn't apply to things like business or politics, because these are relatively new social constructs and have no evolutionary basis. Ideally men and women should be equal in these areas.

This is a "war" in which both sides can win. It sounds kindof whack and corny but we just have to stop seeing it as a war and learn to respect each other, treat each other right and take responsibility for ourselves.

 

[nuba km]

It is bullshit. The western male really has nothing to complain about. But please don't use the phrase "man up". It implies that guys should just suck something up and shouldn't ever complain because they are manly men. And manly men don't complain. But this is just a case of guys losing the overwhelming power that they had in society as things become more balanced and some men take that badly.

while western straight white males are the least discriminated group, they do have some stuff to complain about, e.g. there isn't a special term used against woman who wear traditionally male clothing while if a man wears traditionally woman's clothing (which is still called woman's clothing), they are referred to by a special term but can also face violence and discrimination for what they do. Another example is that woman are shown more sympathy by a jury usually then a man, and to round things of the large number of double standereds(dyslexic and spell check isn't showing the correct spelling for that word) that if a woman does it the guy is a jerk and if a man does it the guy should go to jail or is a massive jerk.

Now don't get me wrong here I am not saying men have it worse i am just saying both sides have their ups and downs and the only way to reach equality is by each site giving away their advantages for the others side to give away theirs.

 

[silverdragon9]

Actually the rights of men may very well be in decline. In most circumstances this is due to discrimination directed to males in relationships. According to the CDC and NCHS the majority of custody hearings end in custody being awarded to the mother, preferential treatment on the perception that women raise children better than men, regardless of whether or not that is the case for any given 2 individuals (double discrimination on that one).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/95facts/fs_439s.html

why is this any concern of the cdc?

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

The western male really has nothing to complain about.

Spoiler: Suicide: More than twice Female rate

In every country for which data are available, male suicide rates are at least twice as high as female suicide rates.

Please don't make statements like that. It upsets me.

Spoiler: Risk of Violence: Highest Group

Spoiler: Male Rape: Still not taken seriously. Only has existed officially for 8 years

In Europe there are no robust epidemiological data on the prevalence of rape or other sexual offences on men. Indeed, male rape did not exist in the eyes of UK law until 1994. Before this, male rape was classified as indecent assault. Following introduction of the new law, in 1995 there were 3142 indecent assaults and 227 rapes against men - an increase of 51% from 1994 (Stationary Office 1996). More recent Home Office Statistics show an increase of 400% in reported cases of male rape between 1995 and 2000. However, for many reasons, the vast majority of incidents of male rape go unreported.

You forgot custody cases. Men really get the shaft there too. There are certainly problems and double standards that need to be addressed, but these radical "men's rights" movements just make me laugh. Like when they say the power has shifted between the two genders and men are now oppressed. First world problems, literally. It really sucks to be a woman pretty much anywhere else. Should we work toward correcting these issues? Yes. I should have worded my post better. I'm mainly laughing at these crazy anti-feminists.

 

[Okysho]

While im all for equality in the sexes blah blah blah, what annoys me more is the inequality in "sexist" remarks.

If.a man says something deemed as derogitory, they get chewed to pieces and dragged through the press. If a woman says something derogitory about men, its just accepted and often turned into an idea for a tv commercial.

I'm with this as being my biggest problem with the "battle of the isms". Also, if I say "man" when describing the head of a household, don't punish me, I was raised in that kind of a society where the man is "supposed" to keep the family together etc. I realize it hasn't been that way since about the 60s, but I'm not gonna spend 2 minutes to craft my sentences all the time...

 

[CaptainKarma]

I'm a man... since when did I need a rights group?

But on a serious note, I do think that there is a great value in masculinity and its something that a lot of guys lack. I think that when it comes to a relationship, a man is most attractive when he is in control. This is hardwired by millions of years of evolution and it will be difficult to completely rid from our society. Its an unfortunate truth but its something that we have to live with.
This doesn't apply to things like business or politics, because these are relatively new social constructs and have no evolutionary basis. Ideally men and women should be equal in these areas.

This is a "war" in which both sides can win. It sounds kindof whack and corny but we just have to stop seeing it as a war and learn to respect each other, treat each other right and take responsibility for ourselves.

Alert, Alert, Biotruth detected. Repeat, Biotruth detected.

How exactly can you determine that men are "genetically programmed" to act in a specific way and that they aren't just socialised into it by our still heavily patriarchal society?

Hint: You can't.

 

[the Dept of Science]

One more thing, I hate it when guys complain about how a woman can claim its rape if she was drunk and regrets what she did.

Hey... if the girl regrets what she did, its your fault! YOU mislead her or didn't treat her well. If you were truly honest about your intentions from the outset and carried it through the whole interaction, then she wouldn't regret it. If she was too drunk to make good judgements, then you shouldn't have had sex with her.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

It is bullshit. The western male really has nothing to complain about. But please don't use the phrase "man up". It implies that guys should just suck something up and shouldn't ever complain because they are manly men. And manly men don't complain. But this is just a case of guys losing the overwhelming power that they had in society as things become more balanced and some men take that badly.

as opposed to me and most of my friends, who don't complain because we cannot be arsed, or it often doesn't actually matter? though i do agree with the main thrust (MASCULINE WORDS AHOY!) of your point

 

[Thaluikhain]

Ok, I'm aware that it's unlikely that anyone who doesn't already know this will bother reading this, but:

Feminists are fundamentally opposed to MRAs. That's not to say they are opposed to men's rights.

Any number of people have spoken of the importance of removing arbitrary male gender roles because of the effect on men...they tend to be feminists, because removing arbitrary gender roles to promote equality is more or less the definition of feminism.

MRAs, on the other hand, like to point to real or imagined discrimination against men for the purpose of dismissing feminism.

For example, a big MRA group a while back had pointed out that feminists had created a number of shelters for battered women in their country, but that there weren't any for battered men. Now, this is, of course, a valid concern. Their solution was to demand that the feminists close all their shelters for women, because it was unfair that they existed. If they actually cared about men's rights, they'd have campaigned to get shelters for men as well.