The Last Action Gamer (Dragon Age 2 related, first post edited)

[SageRuffin]

Well mayby its just that, mayby we feel devs are cartering to you action oriented gamers. I for one do not hate you for liking something, that would be stupid. But that doesen't mean that I don't think that your kind occasionally have bad influence on games like Dragon age.

Huh? You don't hate us action gamers for being action gamers, but you think we're a "bad influence on games like Dragon Age"? What does that even mean, and if it is a problem like you imply, how so?

Actually, don't answer that - if you'll notice, you're actually helping prove my point. Now, I can excuse this simply on an unintentional lack of neutral wording, but the fact remains that you feel that "[fans of action games] have a bad influence on games like Dragon Age". I could be reading this wrong, but it does indeed sound like you have a few issues with those of us who prefer action-oriented combat. Otherwise, and this is just conjecture on my part, you probably wouldn't have made that comment.

Am I right?

 

[A Weakgeek]

Well mayby its just that, mayby we feel devs are cartering to you action oriented gamers. I for one do not hate you for liking something, that would be stupid. But that doesen't mean that I don't think that your kind occasionally have bad influence on games like Dragon age.

Huh? You don't hate us action gamers for being action gamers, but you think we're a "bad influence on games like Dragon Age"? What does that even mean, and if it is a problem like you imply, how so?

Actually, don't answer that - if you'll notice, you're actually helping prove my point. Now, I can excuse this simply on an unintentional lack of neutral wording, but the fact remains that you feel that "[fans of action games] have a bad influence on games like Dragon Age". I could be reading this wrong, but it does indeed sound like you have a few issues with those of us who prefer action-oriented combat. Otherwise, and this is just conjecture on my part, you probably wouldn't have made that comment.

Am I right?

Well you are, in a way. What I'm trying to (unsuccesfully) say, is that I do not think that you are any lesser gamers than me or anyone who likes similar games as me. The only thing I wish is to developers keep "our" games seperate. Since there are so many action oriented games already, why the need to convert something like Dragon age?
Look I'm really sorry because I'm coming off as a douche. I'm really not. I Don't blame you gamers really, its just the devolepers cartering to action gamers. I'm not probably helping my case, and I'm sorry if I offended you. It's just that I like my games like I do, you like them like you do, It's just that my games are getting more rare.

 

[370999]

OP: I think it is very much that people resent that games are being more focused towards your demographic. It's all very much reminisent of the jealous ex seething with frustation at seeing his then girlfriend dancing with another man. It's not rational or fair but these things tend not to be.

 

[Traun]

For crying out loud, I'm not talking about the differences between DAO and DA2. I've noticed that one of the complaints of DA2 was the action-oriented combat how it supposedly tailored for "gamers who can't think", which led me to believe that most people here are not fond of action games. Because, really, why else would they say something like that.

In short, I'm talking why those of us who like action-style combat are looked down upon and included in that group of "gamers who can't think".

If we have to look objectively on things.

There were action RPG's in the past, the outcry is emotional one. In the last three years many companies jumped the gun to action-packed games since they appeal to wider audience. Making action-rpgs isn't new, there were a lot of them in the past, the problem is that now no-one is making games for a market that isn't so niche. Aren't you going to be mad if a company made a product for people like you and then suddenly jumped shit? Imagine that you were a Call of Duty fan, then suddenly Activision turns Call of Duty into a roller-coaster simulator, wouldn't you be pissed? You favorite FPS series was just turned into a sim, of course you would whine to heavens and back!
Furthermore there wasn't even a reason to do so, Dragon Age:Origins outsold Mass Effect. EA just dumbed it down for no reason, trying to find a market that wasn't that interested in the game while completely alienating those that were.
No one is looking down on people who prefer action games, but when companies used time and time again "reaching for newer audience" people are getting emotional and that anger gets redirected. In the same sense we now have PC vs Console, funny thing is that during the Golden Ages(early 80's and 1998-2001/3) of gaming that argument never existed, but now that everything is getting "streamlined for consoles"(just a side note, what is happening right now isn't streamlining, it's dumbing down) emotions start to run high, especially when it's at the expense at someone else.

 

[Aiden_the-Joker1]

Well, think of it this way: If people wanted to play an action game, They would play an action game. The people who are complaining about Dragon Age 2 probably played Dragon Age 1 and enjoyed the shit out of it. A chance that makes the game feel like a different genra alltogether isn't going to please them.
Some people like RPG's, some people like Action, some people like both, some people like neither. If you try and impress an RPG fanatic and Action Game hater by making your RPG play (at least in combat) more like the latter then the former, you're going to piss them off. Simple, right?

This basically. Thank you sir you have saved me a great deal of time. 40% of DA2's sales were pre-orders so I feel that many who bought it wanted more of the same really but with new characters and a new over arching story but this is not what they got and they are now angry about it.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

My point is, as illustrated by the bold sentence above this paragraph, I prefer a more action-oriented approach to combat, being able to control various facets of a character's abilities (attacking, evading, defending, etc). Like I said, I grew up on action games and fighters, using acute eyesight and reflexes to get through battles versus premeditated strategies and what can be equated to a "stop button". Now, I'm not knocking those types of games, just saying that they're not quite my cup of Kool-Aid.

Is that really such a bad thing in this day and age?

Not at all. Here's the problem: there are tons and tons of games that cater to that exact play style already, whereas the slower, more strategic games are going extinct far too quickly. Even within Bioware you already had Mass Effect 2, where they were clearly attempting to attract people who don't normally play RPGs. So why not have two separate franchises for two separate types of gamer? I can only assume that people who want those slower, more strategic experiences are so few these days that catering to them doesn't have a very high potential for profit.

Now, this isn't to say I don't like Dragon Age 2. What I've played of it so far has been very solid, and I don't think it even nearly deserves all the criticism it has received. That said, it does not stack up to DA:O in my mind. I'm also 24, and I grew up playing a mix of every genre. I love nearly all of them. Some more than others, but still. For that reason, I'd like to see a large variety of gameplay types continue to be produced. We seem to be losing a few each couple years. Mech games, turn-based strategies, sim games, and now classic party-based RPGs are on the chopping block.

I'm worried that, in the eternal pursuit for higher profits, we might eventually just end up with one gameplay speed: ultra-fast. I'm generally involved with three to four games at any given time. Like an FPS, an RPG, an RTS, and a platformer. By switching between them when one starts to bore me a bit, I can insure that I don't kill my love for games. But if the gameplay for all four of those genres becomes frantic and fast-paced, I fear I would be burnt out for weeks after just one day of playing.

Well said. What bugs me though is that Origins was BW's best selling game ever. How much bigger a market do you need?

 

[SageRuffin]

Hmm... lemme reiterate myself again. If the message doesn't get across this time, I give up.

Well, I can't say that. At the very least no arguments have broken out (of which I'm pleasantly surprised), so I can't really complain.

Okay... so I'm currently under the impression that most people here on the Escapist are not fond of action games, whether it be because of a massive influx of games therein, developers claiming to "expand their market" or whatever (i.e. DAO -> DA2, according to the scathing remarks flying around), or simply because they are thought of as simple-minded button mashers for simple-minded people.

I'm simply trying to gain some understanding as to why the last point is one of the more prominent ones in recent times (by the way, I could go on all day as to how action games are not "mindless button-mashers", but that's a discussion for another time).

 

[DustyDrB]

Well said. What bugs me though is that Origins was BW's best selling game ever. How much bigger a market do you need?

I don't understand it either. Why abandon an established fan base by trying to appeal to a new one? Hopefully, if DA2's sales numbers stagnate, it will show them that it's too much of a gamble. There are so few classic-style RPG developers left that they could easily have 90% of that market share to themselves if they would just accept that we love them for what they do well already...the new/different things that they try to do well, not so much. Of course I have to believe that much of what they're changing now is being highly influenced by EA.

I think they were worried about people who weren't pleased with Origins. One of the people from BioWare mentioned in an interview that a substantial percentage of the people who played Origins didn't even get a single achievement/trophy. I'll see if I can find that interview...

OK, here it is [http://www.destructoid.com/the-old-school-dragon-age-ii-and-its-influences-194234.phtml]. He talks about people quitting early right after that picture of the dragon. I'm not saying the changes were right or wrong, just that they clearly had this in mind. I loved the game to death, but certainly am not about to say my feelings for it should be universal. And I'm not going to deny that the game has some terrible flaws.

 

[SageRuffin]

OP, you should just be happy that your tastes are being catered to now, instead of ours.

Who gives a fuck what some random ppl say on the net anyways. (from your point of view)
It's your time now, so enjoy it.

Here's another one for ya'. http://ca.kotaku.com/5788680/the-fighter-rolls-20s-in-dungeons--dragons-daggerdale

They're even turning D&D into hack and slash now.

You seem to be implying that I'm tripping about how there once wasn't many action games. I'm gonna assume something got lost in translation and simply inform you that such is not the case.

Granted, I would've enjoyed Origins greatly if it happened to play like... say, Ninja Gaiden 2 [http://www.viddler.com/explore/SageRuffin/videos/12/] except without the broken ass AI, but I know that's not really BioWare's strong suit (hell, look at Jade Empire, and it's probably my favorite BioWare game). Instead, I take what I have and make the most of it.

Aside: And almost anything D&D-related fails to interest me. I won't get into details about it; that's for another time.

 

[Harb]

Well said. What bugs me though is that Origins was BW's best selling game ever. How much bigger a market do you need?

I don't understand it either. Why abandon an established fan base by trying to appeal to a new one? Hopefully, if DA2's sales numbers stagnate, it will show them that it's too much of a gamble. There are so few classic-style RPG developers left that they could easily have 90% of that market share to themselves if they would just accept that we love them for what they do well already...the new/different things that they try to do well, not so much. Of course I have to believe that much of what they're changing now is being highly influenced by EA.

When EA announced they had bought Bioware (October 2007), Dragon Age: Origins was already an ongoing project not far from its release. I guess EA realized it wouldn't bring any good if they started to heavily influence the project. Thus DA:O was released by Bioware terms (=great game that reminded old-style RPGs to many players).

Which can't be said about DA2. The largest quote that stands out is "EA wanted to capitalize on DA:O success with a fast release of the sequel". "EA wanted". Means Bioware no longer makes important decisions (such as the freaking development time) about their titles; EA does it for them now.
DA2 has been dumbed down (it has, that's a fact; you can dislike that fact, you can disagree with it, but that's pretty much all you can do about it) and released as a hot potato to boost sales (see the EA fingerprint?).

It's more possible to never see DA3 (if sales are much lower than expected by EA) than seeing Dragon Age series return and work with what was good in Origins.


One more thing about the conversation wheel:
It's an abomination in DA2. Worked in Mass Effect, as a part of the bigger chain, but you can't simply take one thing that works in one game and smack it in another and expect applause.

Some call it progress, some call it evolution ("hey, you can hear your main character now!"). Rubbish. It's neither progress nor evolution. Because at the expense of the voice acted character the sheer depth of dialogues had to be dumbed down. More voice, less options and less words. Pure, plain compromise.
It would be evolution (through technology), if I had the same amount of dialogue options as in Baldur's Gate II, all of them voice acted. Which I don't. It's a naked compromise that, as all compromises, doesn't fully satisfy anyone.

Some time ago, as a joke, one guy released a fairly short RPG game (30 minutes?) that you had to finish by only pressing space key (and nothing else). It was meant as a sarcastic joke. Unfortunately we are slowly getting there.

 

[Halo Fanboy]

I don't have an opinion on the Dragonage series beyond that it didn't interest me as an action game player. Personally I wouldn't mind if Bioware stopped attempting to make action games since they have and always will be below the cutting edge for action because it isn't their specialty.

 

[The Night Shade]

First nice reference

Second:Found the game boring but i have to agree that is a great rpg with cool concepts that for my didn't work

 

[SageRuffin]

Well you are, in a way. What I'm trying to (unsuccesfully) say, is that I do not think that you are any lesser gamers than me or anyone who likes similar games as me. The only thing I wish is to developers keep "our" games seperate. Since there are so many action oriented games already, why the need to convert something like Dragon age?
Look I'm really sorry because I'm coming off as a douche. I'm really not. I Don't blame you gamers really, its just the devolepers cartering to action gamers. I'm not probably helping my case, and I'm sorry if I offended you. It's just that I like my games like I do, you like them like you do, It's just that my games are getting more rare.

First, while I could make a remark about the lack of neutral wording again, I won't simply because it would make me sound like a colossal dick. If nothing else, I wanna avoid perpetuating that "Ritalin-popping 12-year-old console retard" stigma that surrounds, well... all gamers today.

Second, and I don't fault you for this as it's been happening all around the thread, the original message is still being lost (to an extent). As I said in the opening, I like action games. A lot of fellow Escapists do not like action games, at least according to my observations (which implies that yes, I could be wrong about all this). Henceforth, a lot of nasty terms get thrown around for little to know reason.

Obviously, this goes beyond Dragon Age. Why do some people think action games are "mindless button mashers"? Ninety-Nine Nights is a mindless button masher; Devil May Cry is not. X-Blades is borderline mindless button masher (I say "borderline" because there are magic spells and whatnot to shake things up a bit); Ninja Gaiden 2 is not. While all this is ultimately subjective, the evidence is there should you ever choose to pursue it.

I'm not saying there can't be room for both. I've long since outgrown the "what I don't like is garbage" mentality and thinking otherwise would be rather juvenile of me. I'm just saying why do I suddenly give the image one of those infamous "Ritalin-popping 12-year-old console retards" simply because I happen to prefer DA2's combat mechanics over those of Origins?

...but now that everything is getting "streamlined for consoles"(just a side note, what is happening right now isn't streamlining, it's dumbing down) emotions start to run high, especially when it's at the expense at someone else.

DA2 has been dumbed down (it has, that's a fact; you can dislike that fact, you can disagree with it, but that's pretty much all you can do about it)...

This is another thing that I'd like to comment on as an aside: what do people really mean when they say something has been "dumbed down"? Because according to all (yes, ALL) the context surrounding the term, people seem to mean "made for stupid people to understand". Now, I'm not gonna comment on how insulting I think the term is, but I would like to know what has been "dumbed down" and how so?

No, I'm not being facetious. I really wanna know because I don't understand it.

Also, I know of that song by Lupe Fiasco, who is indeed a fantastic rapper, thank you.

 

[SageRuffin]

I see that after almost a week the question in my last post goes unanswered. If anyone can at least theorize this recent phenomenon, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Nimcha]

I feel the need to reiterate myself. It seems the original message was lost when I was comparing Dragon Age 2 to its predecessor...

This is not a discussion about Dragon Age and how it's different. This is more a discussion about how some people like myself actually like action-oriented RPGs as well as action games by extension, but are labeled as idiots simply because we happen to have some different tastes in video games. DAO and DA2 were used as references to help illustrate my point of how one can be bored by the mechanics of one and enthralled by those of the other, and be unfairly ridiculed for doing so. Now I realize I may have done so incorrectly, and for that I apologize.

Hell, I could easily say that those who prefer turn-based or pause-and-play games are a bunch of pansy-ass high-and-mighty bookworm dorks who have the reflexes of a slug, and would probably get slaughtered if he or she were to play a relatively easy action game like TMNT (or some such) since they couldn't plan ahead. Some others may do that, but I don't. But if I did, best believe I would get some very angry statements from a few people.

Hopefully that clears a few things up now.

You've given it a great shot and some good posts were made, but like all threads which reaches 3 pages everybody has lost sight of the original point already and now it'll just be more people either bashing DA2 for silly reasons or defending it. *shrug*

 

[SageRuffin]

You've given it a great shot and some good posts were made, but like all threads which reaches 3 pages everybody has lost sight of the original point already and now it'll just be more people either bashing DA2 for silly reasons or defending it. *shrug*

Which is baffling considering the thread isn't about Dragon Age Origins nor DA2. I simply used those as a reference to my real point, of which I'm going to assume you already have a good grasp of.

I guess my original theory holds true then: that most people, here on the Escapist at least, don't play action games and thus don't understand the finer points of them. I admit that I certainly don't understand the finer points of pause-and-play gameplay, but I don't hate the games that use them or the players that enjoy them. They're just not my cup of Kool-Aid.

Still gained some valuable insight either way, so it wasn't a total lost.