The line dividing discipline and abuse.

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DarklordKyo

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I wish to have kids someday, and, as they say, spare the rod, spoil the child. As my parents spoiled me rotten, I don't exactly have a good grasp of proper discipline.

As I don't want my future child to end up a stupid, spoiled, selfish, self-centered asshole like me, I would like some advice for anyone here who have kids.

Should I do something light like scream at them when they do something wrong?, of should I take the route my grandma took with my dad? (beat the kid with something like an electrical chord, for example).
 

Saelune

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Don't have kids but I still remember being one. Crazy idea, but actually talking to your kids would be a good idea. People think kids are stupid, but that's cause no one tells them anything. Keeping things secret and taboo makes them appealing and mysterious. Plus having parents you feel like you can actually trust and talk to is likely to avoid issues later. I know lots of times I wished I could have talked to my family about, but they never gave me a good reason to trust them, like being gay, doing bad in school, feeling lonely and depressed, etc. A lot easier to be a good parent if you know what your kids are dealing with, but you have to let them know you are there for them.
 

DarklordKyo

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Saelune said:
Don't have kids but I still remember being one. Crazy idea, but actually talking to your kids would be a good idea. People think kids are stupid, but that's cause no one tells them anything. Keeping things secret and taboo makes them appealing and mysterious. Plus having parents you feel like you can actually trust and talk to is likely to avoid issues later. I know lots of times I wished I could have talked to my family about, but they never gave me a good reason to trust them, like being gay, doing bad in school, feeling lonely and depressed, etc. A lot easier to be a good parent if you know what your kids are dealing with, but you have to let them know you are there for them.
Them being assholes because they complained that you're gay, I can agree with. They should've at least put up with you being you. That said, is it really necessary to be able to confide?

My dad was able to do everything by himself, he never needed help in anything. Why should my theoretical future children be allowed the convenience, why should I let them be weak?
 

Saelune

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DarklordKyo said:
Saelune said:
Don't have kids but I still remember being one. Crazy idea, but actually talking to your kids would be a good idea. People think kids are stupid, but that's cause no one tells them anything. Keeping things secret and taboo makes them appealing and mysterious. Plus having parents you feel like you can actually trust and talk to is likely to avoid issues later. I know lots of times I wished I could have talked to my family about, but they never gave me a good reason to trust them, like being gay, doing bad in school, feeling lonely and depressed, etc. A lot easier to be a good parent if you know what your kids are dealing with, but you have to let them know you are there for them.
Them being assholes because they complained that you're gay, I can agree with. They should've at least put up with you being you. That said, is it really necessary to be able to confide?

My dad was able to do everything by himself, he never needed help in anything. Why should my theoretical future children be allowed the convenience, why should I let them be weak?
Humans are social creatures. Relying on others isn't a weakness. Relying on others is two people helping to lift a heavy object so they can get done what needs to get done without one person breaking their back. Saying relying on others is a weakness is like saying using a hammer on a nail is weak since you should use your fists.
 

DarklordKyo

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Saelune said:
Humans are social creatures. Relying on others isn't a weakness. Relying on others is two people helping to lift a heavy object so they can get done what needs to get done without one person breaking their back. Saying relying on others is a weakness is like saying using a hammer on a nail is weak since you should use your fists.
Except that's inefficient, both should be strong enough to carry their loads without breaking themselves. On your second point, I'm not saying someone shouldn't have the right tools for the job. If they need to hammer the nail, and can't improvise with a nearby can, they should either get their own hammer, or run their fist bloody until they can get the job done.

I get what you're saying, but I just don't want my theoretical future kid to be worthless and weak. I don't want them to be me.
 

Saelune

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DarklordKyo said:
Saelune said:
Humans are social creatures. Relying on others isn't a weakness. Relying on others is two people helping to lift a heavy object so they can get done what needs to get done without one person breaking their back. Saying relying on others is a weakness is like saying using a hammer on a nail is weak since you should use your fists.
Except that's inefficient, both should be strong enough to carry their loads without breaking themselves. On your second point, I'm not saying someone shouldn't have the right tools for the job. If they need to hammer the nail, and can't improvise with a nearby can, they should either get their own hammer, or run their fist bloody until they can get the job done.

I get what you're saying, but I just don't want my theoretical future kid to be worthless and weak. I don't want them to be me.
You cant seriously think that, can you? I mean, I'm someone who literally burst into tears once cause someone told me that I mattered, so I know that feeling of utter worthlessness, but if you really thought any of this, you wouldn't be asking for so much advice. I'm also not trying to run you off either, it just worries me that you feel this way, cause you really shouldn't.

If you really care about your future child, care that they are happy, even if they are weak. Id rather my kids be happy more than anything, just as Id rather be happy and weak than strong and miserable.
 

Nemmerle

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DarklordKyo said:
Except that's inefficient, both should be strong enough to carry their loads without breaking themselves. On your second point, I'm not saying someone shouldn't have the right tools for the job. If they need to hammer the nail, and can't improvise with a nearby can, they should either get their own hammer, or run their fist bloody until they can get the job done.

I get what you're saying, but I just don't want my theoretical future kid to be worthless and weak. I don't want them to be me.
It would be nice if everyone was strong enough to carry every load by themselves, but it's patently not the case. Everyone works with others, that's what companies and other organisational structures are there for. So that what productivity you can summon can be networked with the production of others work to enable things that neither of you would be able to do on your own.

Growth requires challenge, that much is true. But to be confronted by challenges dramatically beyond one's ability to cope with, or to assign that challenge when there is no lesson to be learned regardless of who the most suitable person is for the task, is itself an inefficiency. If you want to look at people like tools, trying to beat in nails with a knife when there's a hammer in your box is silly and liable to result in things getting broken - denying you the use of a tool that you might otherwise have profited from.

Some people are better suited for some things in some contexts, and that's good. We wouldn't get as much done if that wasn't true - welding a knife on the back of a hammer would just give you a tool that was crap at both things.
 

DarklordKyo

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Saelune said:
You cant seriously think that, can you? I mean, I'm someone who literally burst into tears once cause someone told me that I mattered, so I know that feeling of utter worthlessness, but if you really thought any of this, you wouldn't be asking for so much advice. I'm also not trying to run you off either, it just worries me that you feel this way, cause you really shouldn't.

If you really care about your future child, care that they are happy, even if they are weak. Id rather my kids be happy more than anything, just as Id rather be happy and weak than strong and miserable.
What if I let that happen, and they somehow end up weak and miserable? At least with strong misery, they'd at least have one going for them.
 

Saelune

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DarklordKyo said:
Saelune said:
You cant seriously think that, can you? I mean, I'm someone who literally burst into tears once cause someone told me that I mattered, so I know that feeling of utter worthlessness, but if you really thought any of this, you wouldn't be asking for so much advice. I'm also not trying to run you off either, it just worries me that you feel this way, cause you really shouldn't.

If you really care about your future child, care that they are happy, even if they are weak. Id rather my kids be happy more than anything, just as Id rather be happy and weak than strong and miserable.
What if I let that happen, and they somehow end up weak and miserable? At least with strong misery, they'd at least have one going for them.
Nope. Misery is misery. The problem with a lot of people finding happiness is they never simply desire to be happy. They instead desire things that they expect to make them happy rather than figuring out what would make them happy. ("If I get lots of money, I will be happy; if I get married I will be happy; if I'm successful in my career I will be happy) What each person needs for happiness isn't always the same.

Also if relying on others is weak, then why do we even take care of our kids? We do cause without relying on others, our species would go extinct. We rely on others to learn and better ourselves and to just enjoy life through companionship, both platonic and romantic.
 

Nemmerle

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DarklordKyo said:
What if I let that happen, and they somehow end up weak and miserable? At least with strong misery, they'd at least have one going for them.
What if you beat them and/or never allow them to confide in you about anything and they end up so emotionally fucked up they shoot up a school and/or blow their brains out? Then they won't have anything going for them.

Heck, how can you have anything going for you if you're miserable as your base state - if nothing makes you happy? Just having strength is meaningless, like having a million pounds and nothing you ever want to buy.
 

DarklordKyo

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Nemmerle said:
What if you beat them and/or never allow them to confide in you about anything and they end up so emotionally fucked up they shoot up a school and/or blow their brains out? Then they won't have anything going for them.

Heck, how can you have anything going for you if you're miserable as your base state - if nothing makes you happy? Just having strength is meaningless, like having a million pounds and nothing you ever want to buy.
Anyone who shoots up a school is either broken and irreparable from the start, or they're too weak to deal with everything around them. I think I'm worthless and weak, but I have no plans to ever do something so despicable. Just because I'm worthless doesn't mean other people are.

You got me on the suicide point though, fair point.
 

somersetsaxon

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I'm replying here, because this post is quite a useful one to quote, but I'm trying to address what I think is the crux of the issue for both of the threads you posted here.

DarklordKyo said:
Saelune said:
Humans are social creatures. Relying on others isn't a weakness. Relying on others is two people helping to lift a heavy object so they can get done what needs to get done without one person breaking their back. Saying relying on others is a weakness is like saying using a hammer on a nail is weak since you should use your fists.
Except that's inefficient, both should be strong enough to carry their loads without breaking themselves. On your second point, I'm not saying someone shouldn't have the right tools for the job. If they need to hammer the nail, and can't improvise with a nearby can, they should either get their own hammer, or run their fist bloody until they can get the job done.

I get what you're saying, but I just don't want my theoretical future kid to be worthless and weak. I don't want them to be me.
Homo Sapiens is a rubbish animal. It's slow, the fastest specimens can maintain a burst of about 30 mph for a few seconds. It's weak for its size, in a fight between the heavyweight champion of the world and a chimp, I'd back the chimp. Its senses, with the possible exception of sight (although, human eyes, for consistency, are rubbish. They're being helped out by some fantastic biological software in the occipital lobe) are rubbish. It's not venomous or poisonous. It has no sharp teeth or claws. It's basically a nice slow and easy to catch meal.

As was mentioned, the thing we have going for us, is that we're smart and we work together.

Stress is, and I'll quote one of my patient care lectures here, a perceived inability to deal with the demands currently placed upon you. For some people this is quite high, for others it's considerably lower. Neither of these people is inherently worse than the other, evolution has tended humans towards socialisation to make up for our inefficiencies for millennia.
I think there may be a cultural difference here that I potentially struggle to comprehend. I cannot place myself in your shoes because I've never shared your environment properly. Despite this, I hope you'll appreciate that I'm trying to understand and help.
From the OP of your other thread, I would guess that stress is a large part of how you're feeling at the minute. You don't feel that you're capable of handling the pressures that life is currently placing upon you. It is entirely normal for people to feel that way at points throughout their life. The Prime Minister of Norway at one point took three weeks off sick, leaving the deputy PM in charge as the stress he was experiencing was making him feel unwell.
The old saying, a problem shared is a problem halved, applies pretty well here. See if you can find pictures of President Obama in 2008 compared to now, or Tony Blair in 1997 compared to 2007, President Lincoln between his inauguration and his assassination. You'll see men who've aged far more than time says they should have. I'll concede, these are likely very strong individuals who are confident in their abilities, despite that, I'll maintain that the only reason they handle the stress of the position they are in is because of their support network. A problem shared is a problem halved.

You've said in the other thread when someone suggested that you utilise your college's counselling services that you had tried them in the past and not found them to be especially helpful. I would suggest that you give them another try. I don't know when you last had counselling, but methods adapt and improve all the time, plus individuals may or may not click with an individual counsellor. That said, if you still don't feel that this is worthwhile, it is good that you're sharing the problem, even if it's with strangers on the internet.

As a disclaimer, I'm no counsellor, I'm a student radiographer, so the extent of my training to do with this is to try and teach us to recognise the effects of stress within ourselves, within our colleagues and within patients we might see to try and ensure the highest standard of care possible for patients. Pretty much by suggesting that they might want to talk with someone a little better trained, or just by being the person that will listen.

Humans are rubbish animals, but by working together, we literally change the world.

Having read this back, it probably would have made more sense in the other thread as it seems quite off topic now I read it through, but I think the two threads were born of the same mindset, so hopefully it's helpful in both.

To try and tie it back to the raising your kids idea, I think its possible to enforce boundaries without requiring violence, and that violence towards your kids is the culmination of frustration and impatience. It's easier to enforce the boundary by physical dissuasion. It's more important to teach them that there are things that they will be better at than other kids, there are things that they will be worse at and that it's important to talk when they feel they need help.

Anyway, hopefully I've been able to help. Feel free to pm if you like. As I said, I'm no counsellor, but I'm happy to listen.
 

manic_depressive13

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Why do you want to give your children a harsh life? You've called yourself spoiled, weak and worthless, but instead of improving yourself, you want to drag children into the situation and raise them "better" than you were raised? It sounds like you just want to exert power over someone helpless.
 

DarklordKyo

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manic_depressive13 said:
Why do you want to give your children a harsh life? You've called yourself spoiled, weak and worthless, but instead of improving yourself, you want to drag children into the situation and raise them "better" than you were raised? It sounds like you just want to exert power over someone helpless.
I just don't want them to be as worthless as me.
 

DarklordKyo

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Baffle said:
OT: on the basis that you think hammering a nail in with your fist is even an option (it wouldn't work by the way, flesh is much weaker than wood - to do so would be painful and unproductive, and the time you spend getting stitched back up is time you could spend looking for a hammer), you should not ever try to discipline a child. You'll end up on the news.
Well, I didn't mean that literally. Anyone who literally forces someone to hammer a nail with a bare fist is a complete douche.
 

Nemmerle

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Baffle said:
I disagree - I don't much want to buy anything, but I love having cash in the bank. Makes me feel fuzzy.
Well, I think we all like money in the bank. But I'd imagine, may be wrong, that we only like it because it allows us to get things that we want or need. Maybe not right now, but it has that potential. Not sure how much we'd like money if it didn't let us do that.

Like can you even call it money at that point - if it ceases to have a trade value?
 

The Philistine

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DarklordKyo said:
manic_depressive13 said:
Why do you want to give your children a harsh life? You've called yourself spoiled, weak and worthless, but instead of improving yourself, you want to drag children into the situation and raise them "better" than you were raised? It sounds like you just want to exert power over someone helpless.
I just don't want them to be as worthless as me.
Having a parent who suffered who suffered a fair bit of emotional abuse as a kid, tearing down a child's ego by calling/insinuating them worthless is not a healthy relationship. Worth is largely a matter of perception, and screaming at or beating a kid will do nothing to build their own sense of self-worth, nevermind what it does to the parent/child relationship. Discipline is about instilling values, not the level of abuse. When/if you need to discipline a child, focus more on making sure they get the idea of why they're being punished (i.e. tell them why and discuss with them why they received timeout afterwards). Abusing (screaming/beating) a child is not going to build up the child's or your own self worth.
 

manic_depressive13

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DarklordKyo said:
I just don't want them to be as worthless as me.
If you are as worthless as you claim, why do you think it's appropriate to have kids? You need to work on your own issues, or else you'll just end up projecting your own insecurities onto your children, as evidenced here.
 

Eclipse Dragon

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My parents always gave me a rather long leash.
They never said I needed to get straight A's, they said "Do the best you can."
They never said "Don't smoke" because both of them were smokers and that would be hypocritical.
They never said "Don't drink X" My mother would mix milk with coffee when I ten or so and give it to me, when I was a little older, she would make alcoholic drinks for me when she made them for herself with the justification "if you're going to do it, I'd rather it be here where I know you're safe"

As a result, I got straight A's because I did the best I could and it just turned out that way, I never felt the desire to smoke, over drink or act out, these things weren't new, taboo or exciting to me, so I never had any desire to indulge in them. They never spanked me, they never had the need to, all it ever took from my parent's was "I'm disappointed in you." and that was excruciating.

Basically, they gave me trust and if I abused it, that's when they'd shorten the leash. I believe this is a good philosophy, of course it's also up to the temperament of the child and there are some things you can't control. Kids are going to get into shit, best prepare them for it rather than trying to deprive them of it.

It's interesting that both my mother and father came from households with very stern and strict parents and they made a decision to not raise their kids the same way.